Post by: DJJ on July 19, 2007, 05:13:24 PM
Could I keep the furnace, or would I have to change everything out? How much might something like this cost? Manufacturers and dealers are very tight-lipped when it comes to a number (wonder why?).
Post by: Ron on July 19, 2007, 05:20:00 PM
How old is the furnace?
How many square feet is your house and what is the input BTU of your furnace?
There are a couple residential HVAC guys here who might be able to point you in the right direction. I'm strictly commercial.
Post by: DJJ on July 19, 2007, 05:28:05 PM
Everything installed new in 7-04.
2100 sf, 2 story, and it's either 125,000 Btu/hr or 125.000 (kind of dark in there).
Post by: Ron on July 19, 2007, 05:49:59 PM
Your blower motor should be big enough to move the right amount of air. If so I can't see why you would have to replace it other than upgrading to newer technology and better efficiency.
You will have two choices if the furnace doesn't have a strong enough blower motor for the A/C load of the house.
You can install an A/C system matched to your furnace that would probably work fine on all except the hottest days.
You can install a whole new system that is matched to your houses load properly.
This all assumes the ductwork is sized properly.
I know that wasn't much help, but the residential guys might make it easier for you.
Post by: Sindawe on July 19, 2007, 06:07:30 PM
Post by: DJJ on July 19, 2007, 06:16:56 PM
This all assumes the ductwork is sized properly.
Ha. Based on everything else I've seen, I doubt the builder made the slightest effort at tuning/sizing anything properly.
Exhaust fans? No.
Where is...? Ducts all throughout the house, both floors, coming out through the ceilings.
Post by: Ron on July 19, 2007, 06:26:22 PM
Here is a link to the thread about my trip.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=6984.0
Post by: Antibubba on July 19, 2007, 07:01:03 PM
Post by: Moondoggie on July 19, 2007, 07:24:37 PM
Also, you have to open windows on the opposite side of your home from the ingress of cooled ari for the air to escape to the outside. The principle of the swamp cooler is for massive cfm's to move freely through and out of the house for it to work properly.
Hope that helps.
As far as switching to refer A/C...get several estimates. I'd take a guess that you're looking at at least $3-4K...plus the mega power bills that go along with it.
Post by: charby on July 19, 2007, 07:32:57 PM
Post by: Ron on July 19, 2007, 07:38:48 PM
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Albuquerque, New Mexico going humid?
sprinklers and golf courses
Post by: RocketMan on July 19, 2007, 07:45:25 PM
Clean the crap out of the bottom of the swamp cooler before every season.
Upducts in the ceilings of every room that has a duct into it. (Eliminates the need to open windows.)
Doesn't work well during the monsoon season, which I assume you have like we did years ago when I lived in Phoenix. Too humid.
Even if everything works properly, swamp coolers never get to the level of A/C or heat pump cooled air for comfort in my experience.
Post by: roo_ster on July 20, 2007, 05:34:55 AM
What would a swamp cooler good for 1300sqft run?
Post by: Art Eatman on July 20, 2007, 05:44:24 AM
Check the pads. There shouldn't be much buildup of evaporated mineral deposits, but it's likely that there are. Pads are about $2 each at Ace Hardware or True Value. measure; they come in different sizes. The excelsior rolls of the proper width are better, generally, as they are a bit thicker and hold more water--but you have to cut proper lengths.
Check the "spider" for water flow. Sometimes you have to take them apart and probe with a straightened-out coat hanger to break loose any grunge that's solidified during the time the unit was shut off. Flexing the plastic tubes helps break the grunge.
The electric cost for A/C is about four times as much as for a swamp cooler.
Also check the float valve to see that it's not clogged--or the tank wont have water for the little water pump to send to the pads. And, of course, check the water pump itself.
Hey, learn or sweat: Your choice.
Art
Post by: K Frame on July 20, 2007, 05:48:57 AM
They're great, he said! Work wonderfully!
Only problem is he's in Arizona, and I'm in Washington, DC.
In 24 hours I bet I can pull more moisture out of the air with my dehumidifier than his area of Arizona sees in July and August combined.
Post by: 280plus on July 20, 2007, 08:00:18 AM
Post by: onions! on July 20, 2007, 09:17:31 AM
In 24 hours I bet I can pull more moisture out of the air with my dehumidifier than his area of Arizona sees in July and August combined.
The only green spot in my yard is under my window A/C.
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 20, 2007, 09:37:22 AM
Brad
Post by: DJJ on July 20, 2007, 03:00:42 PM
I'm willing to pay the price. There's another concern I haven't mentioned yet: sand. It's everywhere here. If you leave your windows open while you're gone for the day, you'll have a layer of red sand in your house. On your kitchen countertops. Everywhere. I'm willing to pay the price so I can leave the windows closed and the AC on, on a programmable thermostat, while I'm gone.
Post by: Art Eatman on July 21, 2007, 05:25:20 AM
Art
Post by: Moondoggie on July 21, 2007, 07:29:11 AM
If you're going to buy a new swamp cooler, do whatever you have to do to purchase a "Tradewinds" or similar brand that's constructed out of polypropoline.....the plastic ones have miniscule maintenance issues compared to the ones made out of sheet metal.
Art, I hear ya! I used to hate having to walk directly into the freezing wind from my swamp cooler in the middle of the night to get to the switch to turn it off.....BRRRRR!
Post by: DJJ on July 21, 2007, 10:58:48 AM
But actually, I had considered something similar as another alternative: big, top-of-the-line unit on the roof, and a window unit in the far (upstairs) bedroom exhausting out my bedroom window.
Post by: RocketMan on July 21, 2007, 11:17:43 AM
The cooler air flowing through the up-ducts will also drive hot air out of your attic and drop the temp in your house an additional few degrees.
Post by: Desertdog on July 21, 2007, 04:05:49 PM
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I have a gas furnace with ducting (which the swamp cooler also blows into), which works fine.
The heater duct will not give enough air flow for a swamp cooler but will work for refrigerateda air. Duct work for an refrigerated air unit will not give enough air flow for a swamp cooler. Your choices for a remedy will be a window swamp cooler, a swamp cooler that just dumps into one area, or install seperate ducting for the swamp cooler.
You hear people say, "crack your windows." Cracking your winows will not give near enough air flow.
For proper cooling with a "swamp" cooler you need to change the air in your house, or room, every 1 1/2 to 2 minutes. With a ducted swamp cooler you can open windows in different rooms to control the flow for those rooms, if the door is closed, or install upducts in each room.
A house of 1200 sf with 8 ft ceiling has 9600 cubic feet in it. To exchange the air in 9600 cubic feet space every 2 minutes you would need 4800 CFM cooler. That is a lot of air to let out of your house, and cracked windows just won't do it. Exhaust air should be around about 500 CFM per square foot. An exhaust of air for 4800 CFM would be around 9 sf total exhaust area. The air will move to where there is an exhaust hole.
I use a 4800 CFM cooler, ducted to all rooms, on my house and I normally open a window in the dining area, right next to the kitchen, that is 34" X 36." Works great except when the humidity is up around 25% or more.
Post by: DJJ on July 21, 2007, 04:48:36 PM
DJJ, if you decide to stay with the swamp cooler for awhile, install some up-ducts. Don't mess with exhausting out the windows. Close them up. The cooler air flowing through the up-ducts will also drive hot air out of your attic and drop the temp in your house an additional few degrees.
My dad suggested that just today (he's a hardcore swamp cooler man), as a way not only to cool, but to keep the sand out. Sounds like a brilliant idea to me. Will these upducts just go up into the attic space and end (above the insulation, of course)? Would I need to size them for the full 1sf/500cfm? With my square footage, that's 8400 cfm and 17 sqf. Would I also need openings in the attic (to the outside) the same area? I have 2 gable vents about 16" square, which is only 3.5 sqf.What sort of hardware am I looking at for an upduct? I envision something pretty simple - a louvered vent cover (maybe just a regular duct register), some ducting straight up about 18", and maybe a screen over the top.
Also, I wouldn't be able to put any in the ground floor, but that's probably not a deal breaker, since it's always the upstairs that's the worst.
Does anybody even make an 8400 cfm cooler? My parents have a 7000 cfm Ultracool in their 3000 sf house, and it works real well. Would that be enough?
As for the ducts, what I have is what I have, and I'd bet they're as small as the builder could get away with.
Thanks for the continuing advice.
Post by: Art Eatman on July 21, 2007, 04:54:16 PM
The result is almost no sun load on the walls, and the attic doesn't get much above ambient.
I close off the guest suite, so I'm only really cooling about 800 square feet. And, I have ceiling fans all over the place, so I can add a bit of breeze if I want. It's worked fine since October of 1993...
Art
Post by: DJJ on July 21, 2007, 05:12:24 PM
). The master bedroom is on the south face, upstairs, with 2 windows on the south side. I've got blackout shades, and I keep them closed nearly all the time.Another question - the house proper is a rectangle with gable ends, long dimension N/S. The garage is at the south end of that, sticking out perpendicular, to the east, with a gable end at the front. The master bedroom has one window on the east side that overlooks the north half of the garage roof. During the day, the garage attic gets murderously hot. Not long ago, I was up there with some hand tools and screws for not more than 15 minutes, and in that time, the tools & screws literally got hot to the touch - that's how hot it gets. So here's the question: is the heat from that attic contributing to the hot upstairs, and particularly the master bedroom (I expect that's a "no duh") - so what can I do about that? There's an uninsulated "gable end" inside the attic where it meets the house.
Post by: Desertdog on July 21, 2007, 06:30:55 PM
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As for the ducts, what I have is what I have, and I'd bet they're as small as the builder could get away with.
I really hate to say it agan, but the heater ducts will not be sufficient for a swamp cooler to cool your home.Maybe a small a small 1 room refrigerated air window unit in your bedroom, or each bedroom, window so you can sleep comfortly.
Check with your local swamp cooler contractors and see if they can figure out a way to use a swamp cooler without going through the present ducts.
I have seen numerous people with this same problem here.
Post by: Moondoggie on July 21, 2007, 07:08:24 PM
"They" (somebody) make swamp coolers in any size you would possibly need. Our aircraft hanger at MCAS, Yuma had 6 huge ones on the roof. I don't know how many cfm's they were, but they were at least 6' x 6' x 6'.
Post by: Art Eatman on July 22, 2007, 07:30:37 AM
Is the garage attic vented? If not, cut holes and screen over.
Heat buldup in the garage attic will affect the adjacent house wall, and then warmth rises.
Somebody makes a little swamp cooler that you can use indoors. Set it on a table, with a water tank on top. (A buddy of mine uses a window unit on a roll-around table, inside his garage. Fifteen-gallon reservoir on top. Works great!)
Art
Post by: Desertdog on July 22, 2007, 07:42:47 AM
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Somebody makes a little swamp cooler that you can use indoors. Set it on a table, with a water tank on top
Just close your windows when it's on, and it doubles as a great humidifier.
Post by: DJJ on July 22, 2007, 04:04:45 PM
Post by: DJJ on July 23, 2007, 06:15:39 PM
Post by: Desertdog on July 23, 2007, 09:01:43 PM
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New question: Won't upducts put moist air into the attic? I thought you wanted to keep moisture out of there.
A well ventilated attic will not accumulate moisture. Where you have moisture problems is when you have an attic with poor ventilation and cold enough teperatures to cause the moister to condense out of the air, ie: cool the air below the saturation point of the air.Properly made Upducts will only work when there is a positive air pressure on them
Post by: K Frame on July 23, 2007, 09:21:23 PM
The garage has vents in the overhang soffits, and in the roof, but they're just holes, nothing active. I think one project I'll do real soon is replace those passive roof vents with fan(s).
If you have a full-length ridge vent and a full complement of soffit venting, you're not going to gain anything by putting fans in other than increase your power consumption.
Just make sure that the screens on the soffits aren't blocked.
Post by: DJJ on July 24, 2007, 03:07:12 PM
Properly made Upducts will only work when there is a positive air pressure on them
Can you elaborate on that, Desertdog? Does that mean there's some special hardware that these consist of? Do they empty into the attic? Does that mean they rely on the AC unit itself to push the air on out of the attic?
If you have a full-length ridge vent and a full complement of soffit venting, you're not going to gain anything by putting fans in other than increase your power consumption.
I don't have a ridge vent, just a single passive vent (which is just a little chimney, maybe 10" diameter and 4" high with a cap, and it's not even at the top). Air may move through there, but not enough to prevent it from getting hotter than (insert glib metaphor here).
Post by: Desertdog on July 24, 2007, 03:46:19 PM
Quote
Quote from: Desertdog on July 23, 2007, 06:01:43 PM
Properly made Upducts will only work when there is a positive air pressure on them
Can you elaborate on that, Desertdog? Does that mean there's some special hardware that these consist of? Do they empty into the attic? Does that mean they rely on the AC unit itself to push the air on out of the attic?
There should be a damper at the outlet end which opens with the air pressure against, from the sweamp cooler, it and then it closes when the air pressure drops. Properly made Upducts will only work when there is a positive air pressure on them
Can you elaborate on that, Desertdog? Does that mean there's some special hardware that these consist of? Do they empty into the attic? Does that mean they rely on the AC unit itself to push the air on out of the attic?
With Refrigerated air conditioning, the air is recirculated through the evaporator coils. Thus, no increase in air pressure in the house
Post by: DJJ on July 24, 2007, 03:51:54 PM
Post by: RocketMan on July 24, 2007, 09:41:39 PM
I've been trying to find such a thing on the internet, but no luck. Any search tips?
I bought mine at the local hardware store years ago when I lived in Phoenix. Payless Cashways or some such. Any place that sells swamp coolers should have them. You should be able to get a good look at them there.
Post by: K Frame on July 25, 2007, 07:10:33 AM
Jeez.
Next time you have your roof replaced write a ridge vent system into the contract.
In order to be truly effective at venting an attic, you really need ventilation in EVERY joist bay, not just one or two fans or passive turbines. That's why a ridge vent and soffit vents are so effective.
Post by: Desertdog on July 25, 2007, 11:03:01 AM
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I've been trying to find such a thing on the internet, but no luck. Any search tips?
I'll agree, t's a tough search, but I did find this informative article that most evaporative cooler owners should be able to learn something from. This is in pdf format, so I couldn’t copy it.
http://www.swenergy.org/pubs/Evaporative_Cooling_Systems.pdf
It does show pictures of an upduct
Post by: DJJ on July 25, 2007, 05:47:13 PM