printing 3-d guns

[MrsSmith]

Teach me to jump into a Geek thread. I had NO idea. Impressive.

[bedlamite]

Gotta agree with RevDisk. I've seriously considered one of these

[cordex]

The advantage of a 3D printer is supposed to be that once you feed in the proper file, it prints out the part needed without any intervention of the user, rather than requiring (like with a CNC machine) elaborate skill.

As RevDisk and AJ alluded to, given the proper additional equipment (scanning/position manipulation) and software, a fully-automated CNC machine is not outside the realm of possibility - even near-term possibility.

[AJ Dual]

The problem is that while the technical challenges of making a more user friendly CNC are trivial, the expense is not.

They need strong metal parts machined to great precision, gearing, high torque/high RPM  motors etc. And a self-indexing CNC that does even more positioning etc. would just cost more, you've just added more axes, and degrees of freedom to the device. More parts, more gearing, more motors etc. And there's space/size/power considerations that don't go away with CNC's either. Block of steel X, cutting of size Y, using bit Z will pretty much always need Watts/Amps of XYZ.

With a 3D printer, you only need 3 axes of precision, and as long as the part is smaller than the workspace, repeatability and indexing is only critical within the making of the part. If you're off by even an inch or more in terms of being centered in the work table, or powder bed depending on what kind of printer it is, it's no big deal. Not to mention the ability to make voids that no CNC device could ever produce.

[brimic]

Of course, there are easier options then clandestine manufacture for getting weapons into an area where they are not commercially avaliable; either illegal importation or theft from legitimate armories.

IIRC, a lot of Stens meant for resistance forces were manufactured right under the Germans' noses in various factories across Norway. If problems ever came to America, there are plenty of M3 grease guns hidden away in people's attics and walls to serve as templates for similar manufacturing.

[erictank]

Gotta agree with RevDisk. I've seriously considered one of these

Been a while since I looked at MyDIYCNC - I didn't know they were shipping. And a turnkey system, ready to hook up to your PC, for only $590???  Yowza! 

Been thinking REALLY hard about something like both this and a RepRap or similar printer (the bigger the better).

[birdman]

Been a while since I looked at MyDIYCNC - I didn't know they were shipping. And a turnkey system, ready to hook up to your PC, for only $590???  Yowza! 

Been thinking REALLY hard about something like both this and a RepRap or similar printer (the bigger the better).

Check out the makerbot products.  I have one of theirs and know a bunch of the buys at the company.  Good stuff!

[RevDisk]

Been a while since I looked at MyDIYCNC - I didn't know they were shipping. And a turnkey system, ready to hook up to your PC, for only $590???  Yowza! 

Been thinking REALLY hard about something like both this and a RepRap or similar printer (the bigger the better).

I believe it is. MakerBots are the gold standard, as I recall. $2k and they stock ABS and PLA. PLA is biodegradable, if I remember correctly it is a corn based plastic.

Theoretically, if you were insane, you could covert a 3D CNC into a three 3D printer. Not smart, IMHO, but you could. Better to buy both a CNC and a dedicated 3D printer. I intend on purchasing both eventually. I want to see if it is possible to make acceptable quality lockpicks with both. Same idea as WikiWeapon, actually. In case the government declares them illegal, I can say "Sure! I own no picks."  And "print" them on demand, destroy when I don't need them. A bit of hand finishing is necessary even with commercial grade picks, so no worries on that point.

The problem is that while the technical challenges of making a more user friendly CNC are trivial, the expense is not.

They need strong metal parts machined to great precision, gearing, high torque/high RPM  motors etc. And a self-indexing CNC that does even more positioning etc. would just cost more, you've just added more axes, and degrees of freedom to the device. More parts, more gearing, more motors etc. And there's space/size/power considerations that don't go away with CNC's either. Block of steel X, cutting of size Y, using bit Z will pretty much always need Watts/Amps of XYZ.

With a 3D printer, you only need 3 axes of precision, and as long as the part is smaller than the workspace, repeatability and indexing is only critical within the making of the part. If you're off by even an inch or more in terms of being centered in the work table, or powder bed depending on what kind of printer it is, it's no big deal. Not to mention the ability to make voids that no CNC device could ever produce.

Very true points. A good CNC machine will never be as cheap as a good 3D printer. But I'd argue there is a place for both.

For rapid prototyping and non-durable applications, plastic will likely always be cheaper/easier than steel. Not sure about aluminum, I'm guessing it would deploy on the alloy. One critical application I intend on using 3D printers is rapid molding. Start heating up the metal, print an object in 3D, toss it in the greensand box, remove, pour bronze or aluminum. Voila. The ability to print different holsters may be useful as well...

[birdman]

Rev, your points on 3D printing are valid at the home user level.  At the industrial level, DLS allows for additive manufacturing of real metal parts, inconel, titanium, you name it, especially metals that are a PITA to machine.  In fact, there are a few companies that make production parts (eg turbine rotors) directly with DLS, as for low volume and complex parts, it makes economic sense.  If the parts have internal structure, it makes even more sense.

[geronimotwo]

http://news.yahoo.com/you-don-t-bring-a-3d-printer-to-a-gun-fight----yet.html

the article is talking about 3-d printing making anyone able to manufacture a gun.  i am not familiar with this technology.  will this be realistically possible?   if so,  i can see a major crackdown on ammunition sales.

[kgbsquirrel]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=35863

[Scout26]

Duplicates merged

[kgbsquirrel]

http://news.yahoo.com/you-don-t-bring-a-3d-printer-to-a-gun-fight----yet.html

the article is talking about 3-d printing making anyone able to manufacture a gun.  i am not familiar with this technology.  will this be realistically possible?   if so,  i can see a major crackdown on ammunition sales.

From your link:

Setting aside any moral leanings, the fact is that the idea will need to overcome significant material and legislative hurdles before you can crank out a working, legal, 3D-printed gun in the United States. On the physical side, the ABS printing plastic might not be strong enough to make a stable enough weapon. And law-abiding, gunsmithing Americans must first face numerous federal, state, and local gun regulations and bureaucratic procedures that may not take kindly to people printing their own firearms.

Yeeaah. Misinformation much? With the exception of a few draconian states it is perfectly legal to build your own non-NFA weapons, as many as you want, as often as you want.

[French G.]

Meh, kids these days. I'll be at my anvil. 

[charby]

Aluminum is pretty easy too.  I have a propane fired aluminum foundry that was homemade - works great and was cheap.

I've always thought it would be fun to build some kind of common semiauto using only car parts as the source.  Melt down an aluminum cylinder head for receiver castings, use a moly steel axle shaft as the source for barrel material; at home EDM the bore and rifling.  It would be completly impractical, of course, but showing that it can be done by someone without a ton of specialized education and tooling would be cool.  Kind of a Dave Gingery approach to gun making.

Of course, there are easier options then clandestine manufacture for getting weapons into an area where they are not commercially avaliable; either illegal importation or theft from legitimate armories.

I wished we lived closer, the crap we could build together.

[Scout26]

From your link:
Yeeaah. Misinformation much? With the exception of a few draconian states it is perfectly legal to build your own non-NFA weapons, as many as you want, as often as you want.

Actually, he's stating the truth, as he explains further down:

If you aim to sell your services as a gunsmith (e.g., "I charge $50 an hour to make a gun") or you intend to sell the weapon once you've made it (e.g., "I charge $500 for this particular gun"), you need to obtain a federal manufacturer's license. If the weapon is for personal use, no manufacturing license is required.

You then need to consider the kind of weapon you intend to make. Crafting a Title I class weapon at home -- a long-barreled semi-automatic or single-action rifle, a long-barreled shotgun, or a traditional pistol or a revolver as defined by the Gun Control Act -- generally requires no preliminary paperwork. You may still need to register the weapon once you've made it (depending on state and local laws), but, federally speaking, you're free to engage in the act of making it without any prior permission

[AJ Dual]

http://news.yahoo.com/you-don-t-bring-a-3d-printer-to-a-gun-fight----yet.html

the article is talking about 3-d printing making anyone able to manufacture a gun.  i am not familiar with this technology.  will this be realistically possible?   if so,  i can see a major crackdown on ammunition sales.

Right now, it's just making plastic firearm receivers, the part that requires the 4473 and an FFL if you don't make it yourself, and you mail-order all the non-regulated parts.

However, by the time printing metal parts like a workable barrel, metal springs etc. is commoditized to the point that home 3D printers can handle that too, I'm guessing printing ammo might not be all that hard either.

[Perd Hapley]

Actually, he's stating the truth, as he explains further down:

You still have to go a little further down for a good explanation of why he said that.

http://news.yahoo.com/you-don-t-bring-a-3d-printer-to-a-gun-fight----yet.html

Title II-class weapons are the more heavily regulated firearms under federal law. Guns in this category consist of, among other things, machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, explosive devices, and what the U.S. government calls "Any Other Weapon." The latter includes pen, cane, and other gadget-type guns, and smooth-bore pistols. According to David Goldman, managing partner of Jacksonville, FL's Apple Law Firm, and publisher of the NFA Gun Trust Lawyer blog, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms would most likely put a 3D-printed plastic gun in that category.

Assuming your design does fall under the Title II Any Other Weapon classification, federal law mandates that before you make it, you fill out ATF Form 5320.1 (PDF), aka Form 1, aka the Application to Make and Register a Firearm. You then need to submit it and have it approved by the ATF.

As part of the approval process, an ATF spokesperson informed me that the agency will want to see the design for your homemade gun. This will help them determine its classification, as well as whether the weapon would be legal for you to possess in your state or municipality.

[birdman]

However, a direct copy of an AR for personal use would not create any patent, trademark, or I would guess ATF issues, as it, by design and definition, is identical to already produced items that are title I items.  I'd like to see them try to cross THAT bridge since it would have literally none of the qualifiers for title II or iii.

[DustinD]

www.cnczone.com has a lot of good information about DIY CNC machines. With a lot of CAM software you don't need to know too much about machining. You can also learn pretty easily online. $2000 will buy a pretty decent CNC setup for home use. I would look into converting an X3 or similar mill to CNC.

It wouldn't take too big of an investment to make complete high quality rifles from scratch, pistols would take even less. CNC machine, lathe for rifle barrels, wire bending rig for making coil springs (easily to make yourself, one of the AGI videos explains it pretty well). Plenty of people on the various DIY gunsmithing forums have made guns from scratch. You could even make a business of selling 80% receivers and parts kits and avoid any regulations at all.

The various AGI videos are pretty good for learning many gunsmithing and gun building skills.

[RoadKingLarry]

Meh, kids these days. I'll be at my anvil. 

Coal or gas fired forge?

[longeyes]

3D printing won't turn the next revolution.  Hacking might.

[Blakenzy]

First thing I would make with my 3D printer is a reproduction of Malkovich's two shot special. Then I would go duck huntin'

[French G.]

Coal or gas fired forge?

I am slowly setting up to do both. Right now the biggest roadblock is a roof to put it under. Going to get gas for knives, might also have to go electric to get the heat treat I want. I have everything I need for a coal set-up now.

[kgbsquirrel]

Let freedom ring.

And by ring, we mean shatter.

Wired: 3-D Printer Company Seizes Machine From Desktop Gunsmith

... less than a week after receiving the printer, Wilson received an e-mail from Stratasys: The company wanted its printer returned. Wilson wrote back, and said he believed using the printer to manufacture a firearm would not break federal laws regarding at-home weapons manufacturing. For one, the gun wouldn’t be for sale. Wilson added that he didn’t have a firearms manufacturers license.

Stratasys’s legal counsel wrote back: “It is the policy of Stratasys not to knowingly allow its printers to be used for illegal purposes. Therefore, please be advised that your lease of the Stratasys uPrint SE is cancelled at this time and Stratasys is making arrangements to pick up the printer,” stated the letter, which Wilson posted to Defense Distributed’s website. The next day, contractors hired by the company arrived at Wilson’s apartment in an Enterprise rental van and took the printer.

Almost enough to make my tin-foil itch.