Taurus Judge - I'm surprised!

[PTK]

Today, I traded my Cz82 straight across for a NIB Taurus 3" chamber, 3" barrel blued Judge. I did try to tell him it wasn't a good deal for him, but... some people... after he bought the Judge, people told him it was loud, weak, and useless, so he tucked it away and didn't use it. Traded it at a huge loss, as they go for ~$500 NIB here, while Cz82s are about $220.

I thought for sure I'd use it a few times and sell it at a profit, but after putting a mix of 200 various rounds I had laying around through it (all .410, I don't have any .45 colt), I'm hooked.

Here's a rundown of the ammo I tried:

Federal .410 2-1/2", 4 000 buck (handgun ammo)
Federal .410 3", 9 4 buck (handgun ammo)
Golden Bear (I know, I know) .410 3" 4 buck, unknown number of pellets but probably 9 or 10
Remington .410 3", #4 birdshot
Remington .410 3", #6 birdshot
Winchester .410 3", 5 000 buck
Winchester .410 3", #6 birdshot
Winchester .410 2-1/2", #8 birdshot

The birdshot of all types resulted in a huge muzzle blast, massive concussion, and very little damage to the target. The Golden Bear had a similarly huge blast and concussion, but significantly more target damage - however, the brass plated steel was quite hard to extract from the cylinder, as I had predicted.

The Winchester 000 buck was very disappointing - huge muzzle blast and concussion, VERY little damage to the target. I'll keep it around for my M6 survival 22/410, nothing else. It worked much better out of the longer barrel.

The Federal handgun .410, however, was amazing - the recoil was still there, the sound was around the same as a .45 colt out of a 7" barrel (much quieter than any of the other ammo I tried), and the muzzle blast was practically nonexistent. I fired this at night, barely an hour ago, and there was essentially ZERO muzzle flash. The pellets from the #4 were, as I expected, all over the target at 10 yards, but the pellets from the 000 buck were in a nice 8" circle, time and again, basically centered on point of aim.

Taurus finally made something that didn't suck. Good. 

[vaskidmark]

Ditch the shot shells and fire some slugs through the Judge.  Particularly either Golden or Silver Bear.

Obviously they are not going to do as much as if coming out of a longer barrel, but you should be pleased with the results out of even that short barrel.

I'm still not sure what problem the Judge solved, but think it might have been the absence of .410 ammo. 

stay safe.

[PTK]

Er, why use a light slug? 4 pellets 000 buck is much heavier.

[RaspberrySurprise]

You're really better off just using 45lc rounds for defense and just leave the .410 shells for fun or blasting snakes.

[PTK]

Yes, that's what I heard. However, that information is far, far outdated now that there is .410 ammo specifically made for the shorter barrel. Not only that, but a lot of what people think is "proof" that the .410 ammo is junk out of the Judge is Box of Truth and similar - that used cut-down 000 buckshot shells, but "they should work the same"  Not scientific, not even a fair test. I can't use .454, so I'll cut it open, empty some powder, and re-seat the bullet half-assed. Should work the same, though. *pop* Oh, man, the .454 sucks! 

I'll be doing gel tests this week, but I expect, based on what the 000 buck Federal ammo did to 1" marine plywood, that the results will be MUCH better than any of the ammo designed for 20" barrels.

Combine the fact that there's now high-payload ammo for the shorter barrel with the fact that .45 Colt tends to keyhole in these due to massive length of freebore in the cylinder, and I think I'd rather stick with the 000 buck. Until I do the gel testing, however, you won't find me keeping it for defense.

[AZRedhawk44]

Er, why use a light slug? 4 pellets 000 buck is much heavier.

Take a 1 pound sand bag, and throw it as hard as you can at someone's chest.

Take a 3/4 pound rock, and throw it as hard as you can at someone's chest.


The sand will hit and shift/splash in the bag.  The guy you hit will say "ow!"

The rock will hit and crush the sternum.  The guy you hit will have troubled respiration.


Same principle with shot versus slugs.

[PTK]

Except for the fact that the buck is coming out faster because it was made for a shorter barrel.

Not only that, if what you said is true, why isn't everyone just using .22 super high velocity for SD?

[AZRedhawk44]

Except for the fact that the buck is coming out faster because it was made for a shorter barrel.

Not only that, if what you said is true, why isn't everyone just using .22 super high velocity for SD?

My argument is for CONJOINED mass.  Not for velocity or separate smaller masses.

Small shot does the same thing as fragmenting rounds.  Penetrates shallow.

[PTK]

Ohhh, I get it, sorry, still waking up and doing ten things at once. :)

Yep, I expect that each 000 buck pellet would go between 7-12" deep. Still, half an ounce or greater, versus 1/5 ounce, same velocity. I'd rather have the half an ounce.

[vaskidmark]

Ohhh, I get it, sorry, still waking up and doing ten things at once. :)

Yep, I expect that each 000 buck pellet would go between 7-12" deep. Still, half an ounce or greater, versus 1/5 ounce, same velocity. I'd rather have the half an ounce.

.410 slugs should be 1/4 ounce, not 1/5th.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things that's not much difference.  Do your gelatin tests and get back to us.  Also do the math to derive ft/lbs of energy.

If that does not work for you, look at whitetail deer taken with a .410 - slugs out to 75 yards consistently and 000 buck at under 25 yards.  But the buckshot load is heavier (total mass) than the slug. so how come the difference?  As AZRehawk44 descrbed things.

stay safe.

[gunsmith]

I wouldn't get the 410 Judge, I would get the .28 gauge. ... I just have no idea why.

[Regolith]

I wouldn't get the 410 Judge, I would get the .28 gauge. ... I just have no idea why.

How big would the bore for .28 gauge be? Gotta be over two inches...

And 410 caliber would be 4.1 inches or so...

I think that counts as light artillery. An actual hand cannon.


You seem to have misplaced your decimal marker there. 

[vaskidmark]

How big would the bore for .28 gauge be? Gotta be over two inches...

And 410 caliber would be 4.1 inches or so...

I think that counts as light artillery.


You seem to have misplaced your decimal marker there. 

I thought when you got to those sizes "caliber" was barrel length divided by bore diameter (if I remember what the Navy guys tried to explain to us Gyrenes). So we need to know how long the tube is.

stay safe.

[AJ Dual]

The 28ga has a bore dia over .50 and the Raging Judge was rifled. So it was automatically a Destructive Device. Taurus could have made it smoothbore and transfer on a $5 AOW stamp, but it was just a stunt to generate buzz at SHOT. Some say to play sour grapes to S&W who decided to copy them.

I think the 28ga Raging Judge even left the show early because of the questions about it's legality. Or the ATF actually stopped by and said "Uh... how about 'No.'"

[sanglant]

that was .28GA







yeah, a typo. but it was a funny one.

[PTK]

Well, there we are. I tested the Judge with various ammo on some ballistic gelatin. My suspicion was correct - the 4 pellet 000 buck Federal "handgun" load penetrated between 15 and 18 inches, with two pellets going through-and-through the second block. Those two pellets have, at the minimum, 18" penetration.




The Judge is a joke. Right. 18"+ penetration with 000 buck. Some joke.

[MillCreek]

Wow.  Thanks so much for the gelatin report.

[MicroBalrog]

Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?

[PTK]

It might, it might not - there are some serious haters of the Judge on here. What it does do is make me feel perfectly fine keeping my Judge loaded with that specific ammo for HD and SD for my Jeep. 18"+ of penetration is more than enough for SD. :)

[MechAg94]

I think part of it is the reaction to the advertising.  It does okay, but not necessarily better than other pistols that shoot pistol ammo only. 

Also, what is the shot spread at 10 yards or more?  How many pellets would hit? 

[RevDisk]

Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?

You can kill a lot of things, not just humans, with a .22LR.  Just about any firearm is plenty lethal under ideal circumstances.  Some weapons/calibers just happen to be better designed for killing folks than others.  Folks argue that the Judge's design is far from optimal against people.

The Judge has an iffy reputation because of overhype and the fact that it is designed to meet US firearm laws.  .410 wasn't exactly designed to be used on humans.  

[GigaBuist]

Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?

It's not a bad idea, if you're willing to ignore its incredibly long cylinder and don't plan on trying to hit anything beyond 7-10 yards. :D

It's a neat novelty item to me and I wouldn't mind owning one just to dink around with some day.  I do object, however, to the marketing behind it.

[AJ Dual]

Looks like you were shooting point-blank to me, and what about clothing?

[PTK]

You'll never be happy, will you?

Anyway, I'll be doing more testing as money allows. Gelatin isn't cheap.

[AJ Dual]

You'll never be happy, will you?

Anyway, I'll be doing more testing as money allows. Gelatin isn't cheap.

And you didn't answer my questions.