Author Topic: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...  (Read 2270 times)

Stand_watie

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A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« on: December 23, 2006, 08:49:16 PM »
I read this story recently, but don't recall the link. I'd appreciate anybody who has the link to  the recent news item. The Jist of it was a woman was beaten up upon by ultra conservatives In Israel for sitting in the front of the bus, on a bus that was traditionally, but not legally, segregated by gender. The news item was in a mainstream Israeli online news-paper. I recall that they said the issue was going before an Israeli high court, but I don't recall the name of the court.

Anybody that is savvy to current events in Israel have an update on this, or extra information that would not be likely to be printed in a secular paper? I do have some sympathy (not from the perspective of what I think public policy should be, but rather for in religious situations) for gender specific religious rites from my own religious tradition, the apostle Paul's teachings as an example, following of traditional rituals such as hair on a man not being long, women covering their heads in church (or keeping long hair), men being required by commandment to lay down their life for their spouse, or women not instructing men religiously, but I'm curious if there has been a legal ruling on this? My understanding from the article, was that the majority of Israeli busses, do not have this custom/requirement - at the very least I'd like to hear that the court would require that busses that do have the requirement post it conspicuously, and require the driver to inform boarding passengers,  "go to the back/front  please, men on this bus sit in the back, ladies in the front" or whatever.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2006, 11:44:48 PM »
http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19

Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat
By Daphna Berman

A woman who reported a vicious attack by an ad-hoc "modesty patrol" on a Jerusalem bus last month is now lining up support for her case and may be included in a petition to the High Court of Justice over the legality of sex-segregated buses.

Miriam Shear says she was traveling to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City early on November 24 when a group of ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) men attacked her for refusing to move to the back of the Egged No. 2 bus. She is now in touch with several legal advocacy and women's organizations, and at the same time, waiting for the police to apprehend her attackers.

In her first interview since the incident, Shear says that on the bus three weeks ago, she was slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women. The bus driver, in response to a media inquiry, denied that violence was used against her, but Shear's account has been substantiated by an unrelated eyewitness on the bus who confirmed that she sustained an unprovoked "severe beating."

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Shear, an American-Israeli woman who currently lives in Canada, says that on a recent five-week vacation to Israel, she rode the bus daily to the Old City to pray at sunrise. Though not defined by Egged as a sex-segregated "mehadrin" bus, women usually sit in the back, while men sit in the front, as a matter of custom.

"Every two or three days, someone would tell me to sit in the back, sometimes politely and sometimes not," she recalled this week in a telephone interview. "I was always polite and said 'No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.'"

But Shear, a 50-year-old religious woman, says that on the morning of the 24th, a man got onto the bus and demanded her seat - even though there were a number of other seats available in the front of the bus.

"I said, I'm not moving and he said, 'I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.' Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of. Then I spat back. At that point, he pushed me down and people on the bus were screaming that I was crazy. Four men surrounded me and slapped my face, punched me in the chest, pulled at my clothes, beat me, kicked me. My snood [hair covering] came off. I was fighting back and kicked one of the men in his privates. I will never forget the look on his face."

Shear says that when she bent down in the aisle to retrieve her hair covering, "one of the men kicked me in the face. Thank God he missed my eye. I got up and punched him. I said, 'I want my hair covering back' but he wouldn't give it to me, so I took his black hat and threw it in the aisle."

'Stupid American'

Throughout the encounter, Shear says the bus driver "did nothing." The other passengers, she says, blamed her for not moving to the back of the bus and called her a "stupid American with no sechel [common sense.] People blamed me for not knowing my place and not going to the back of the bus where I belong."

According to Yehoshua Meyer, the eyewitness to the incident, Shear's account is entirely accurate. "I saw everything," he said. "Someone got on the bus and demanded that she go to the back, but she didn't agree. She was badly beaten and her whole body sustained hits and kicks. She tried to fight back and no one would help her. I tried to help, but someone was stopping me from getting up. My phone's battery was dead, so I couldn't call the police. I yelled for the bus driver to stop. He stopped once, but he didn't do anything. When we finally got to the Kotel [Western Wall], she was beaten badly and I helped her go to the police."

Shear says that when she first started riding the No. 2 line, she did not even know that it was sometimes sex-segregated. She also says that sitting in the front is simply more comfortable. "I'm a 50-year-old woman and I don't like to sit in the back. I'm dressed appropriately and I was on a public bus."

"It is very dangerous for a group of people to take control over a public entity and enforce their will without going through due process," she said. "Even if they [Haredim who want a segregated bus] are a majority - and I don't think they are - they have options available. They can petition Egged or hire their own private line. But as long as it's a public bus, I don't care if there are 500 people telling me where to sit. I can sit wherever I want and so can anyone else."

Meyer says that throughout the incident, the other passengers blamed Shear for not sitting in the back. "They'll probably claim that she attacked them first, but that's totally untrue. She was abused terribly, and I've never seen anything like it."

Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA).

In the coming month, IRAC will be submitting a petition to the High Court of Justice against the Transportation Ministry over the issue of segregated Egged buses. IRAC attorney Orly Erez-Likhovski is in touch with Shear and is considering including her in the petition.

Although the No. 2 Jerusalem bus where the incident occurred is not actually defined as a mehadrin line, Erez-Likhovski says that Shear's story is further proof that the issue requires legal clarification. About 30 Egged buses are designated as mehadrin, mostly on inter-city lines, but they are not marked to indicate this. "There's no way to identify a mehadrin bus, which in itself is a problem," she said.

"Theoretically, a person can sit wherever they want, even on a mehadrin line, but we're seeing that people are enforcing [the gender segregation] even on non-mehadrin lines and that's the part of the danger," she said.

On a mehadrin bus, women enter and exit through the rear door, and the seats from the rear door back are generally considered the "women's section." A child is usually sent forward to pay the driver.

The official responses

In a response from Egged, the bus driver denied that Shear was physically attacked in any way.

"In a thorough inquiry that we conducted, we found that the bus driver does not confirm that any violence was used against the complainant," Egged spokesman Ron Ratner wrote.

"According to the driver, once he saw that there was a crowd gathering around her, he stopped the bus and went to check what was going on. He clarified to the passengers that the bus was not a mehadrin line and that all passengers on the line are permitted to sit wherever they want on the bus. After making sure that the passengers returned to their seats, he continued driving."

The Egged response also noted that their drivers "are not able and are not authorized to supervise the behavior of the passengers in all situations."

Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Avner Ovadia said in response that the mehadrin lines are "the result of agreements reached between Egged and Haredi bodies" and are therefore unconnected to the ministry.

A spokesperson for the Jerusalem police said the case is still under investigation.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 12:04:08 AM »
as a kid in NY, no guy would wear a hat in (catholic) church and they would
take off their hat for the Pledge of Allegiance...I hardly go to Church anymore, when I do it's
a non denominational Christian Church, but the last time I was in a Catholic
Church lots of guys wore hats, and the few times I've been around when the Pledge of Allegiance
has been said...I take off my hat but it doesn't seem like to many guys follow that tradition anymore.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Werewolf

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 05:57:56 AM »
Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2006, 06:33:57 AM »
Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

How nice of you to interject your own American-centered ethics onto a culture you know absolutely nothing about.

While I don't doubt this happens, I think this particular incident was blown out of proportion/never happened.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2006, 07:17:25 AM »
Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

How nice of you to interject your own American-centered ethics onto a culture you know absolutely nothing about.

While I don't doubt this happens, I think this particular incident was blown out of proportion/never happened.

Or was a deliberate provocation.
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meinbruder

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2006, 07:29:58 AM »
Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

How nice of you to interject your own American-centered ethics onto a culture you know absolutely nothing about.

While I don't doubt this happens, I think this particular incident was blown out of proportion/never happened.

Or was a deliberate provocation.

I suppose that Rosa Parks was also deliberately provocative?
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Werewolf

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2006, 09:10:19 AM »
TO the moderators and all APS users except rabbi: I apologize for the tone of this message but I am fed up with rabbi's CRAP! This is an internet forum so there's not a lot I can do about it except ignore him but sometimes that's just nigh unto impossible.

Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

How nice of you to interject your own American-centered ethics onto a culture you know absolutely nothing about.

I spent 3 months in Israel in the early 80's working with their Navy and teaching their sailors about comm gear they bought from us. I lived in Haifa and interacted with the people every day. Does this make me an expert on Jewish culture - of course not - but yes I was aware of the ultra orthodox jewish sects there and no I didn't agree with them and their beliefs about a woman's place and neither did most of the Israelis I knew. But they tolerated them as fellow jews with a less enlightened set of beliefs.  How much time have you spent in Israel interacting with the folks that live there? Hell - are you even a real Rabbi or just a wannabee who has a big mouth filled with a sarcastic, holier than thou tongue. My guess is the truth is closer to the latter than the former. And yes - THAT was a personal attack - DEAL with it.

You assume a lot rabbi when you read more into the written word than is there. There is not one thing in this simple sentence
Quote
It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.
that is untrue. And yes by American standards and the the standards of the rest of Western Civilization including many Israelis the Ultra Orthodox Jews do treat their women as second class citizens.  Does that make it right? Do you believe that the way Islam treats it's women is right? Do you believe that the attitude of the Chinese towards female offspring is right? You better because if you don't you've just proclaimed yourself the role model for hypocrites every where. If you do believe  then that makes you a moral relativist and that's kind of a tough position to take for a Rabbi. So unless you have god like powers allowing you to reach out and read the minds of people who post on the internet then I suggest you take literally what is written and keep your acerbic unqualified opinions about what someone else knows and doesn't know to yourself.

In fact if there's an ignore list on APS I encourage you to add me to it. Maybe then that hard on you have for me will go away.
 
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2006, 09:12:37 AM »
I think I know an ad-hoc "modesty patrol"  that needs to be butt-stroked.


The Rabbi

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 09:45:54 AM »
TO the moderators and all APS users except rabbi: I apologize for the tone of this message but I am fed up with rabbi's CRAP! This is an internet forum so there's not a lot I can do about it except ignore him but sometimes that's just nigh unto impossible.

Hmmmm...

It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

How nice of you to interject your own American-centered ethics onto a culture you know absolutely nothing about.

I spent 3 months in Israel in the early 80's working with their Navy and teaching their sailors about comm gear they bought from us. I lived in Haifa and interacted with the people every day. Does this make me an expert on Jewish culture - of course not - but yes I was aware of the ultra orthodox jewish sects there and no I didn't agree with them and their beliefs about a woman's place and neither did most of the Israelis I knew. But they tolerated them as fellow jews with a less enlightened set of beliefs.  How much time have you spent in Israel interacting with the folks that live there? Hell - are you even a real Rabbi or just a wannabee who has a big mouth filled with a sarcastic, holier than thou tongue. My guess is the truth is closer to the latter than the former. And yes - THAT was a personal attack - DEAL with it.

You assume a lot rabbi when you read more into the written word than is there. There is not one thing in this simple sentence
Quote
It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.
that is untrue. And yes by American standards and the the standards of the rest of Western Civilization including many Israelis the Ultra Orthodox Jews do treat their women as second class citizens.  Does that make it right? Do you believe that the way Islam treats it's women is right? Do you believe that the attitude of the Chinese towards female offspring is right? You better because if you don't you've just proclaimed yourself the role model for hypocrites every where. If you do believe  then that makes you a moral relativist and that's kind of a tough position to take for a Rabbi. So unless you have god like powers allowing you to reach out and read the minds of people who post on the internet then I suggest you take literally what is written and keep your acerbic unqualified opinions about what someone else knows and doesn't know to yourself.

In fact if there's an ignore list on APS I encourage you to add me to it. Maybe then that hard on you have for me will go away.
 

Well, at least you admitted that 1) you don't know what you're talking about, 2) you engage in personal attacks.  Nice to see you keeping up the standards of the high road here.

Back to planet Earth and people who can talk civilly.
Meah Shearim and Bnei Brak and their related enclaves present a world pretty different from everything else, with its own set of rules and standards.  Yeah, some of the people there are pretty radical.  Judging normative Judaism, even Orthodox Judaism, even the right wing Chassidic kind that inhabits those places, by the actions of the "tznius patrol" is about like judging the Catholic Church by Mel Gibson's statements.
But people choose to live in those places.  And people choose to go to those places.  And if you choose to either live there or go there you are pretty well bound to respect the standards that are there.  And if those standards differ from your own post-Enlightenment ethics, and you find them offensive, don't go.
But no one should go spouting ignorant crap on APS about Muslims and second-class citizens.
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Werewolf

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 09:59:48 AM »
Quote
But no one should go spouting ignorant crap on APS about Muslims and second-class citizens.
So then you don't think the way fundamentalist Islamists treat their women is wrong?

Not surprising - no not surprising at all.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 10:14:00 AM »
Quote
But no one should go spouting ignorant crap on APS about Muslims and second-class citizens.
So then you don't think the way fundamentalist Islamists treat their women is wrong?

Not surprising - no not surprising at all.

Do you have any idea how "fundamentalist Islamists" treat their women?  Do you even know what one is?
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Werewolf

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2006, 10:26:29 AM »
Quote
Do you have any idea how "fundamentalist Islamists" treat their women?  Do you even know what one is?
Do YOU?
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Stand_watie

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 10:49:36 AM »
Gunsmith, thanks, that is the news article I saw.

Others please, this wasn't about Judaism or Israel (or Islam) writ large, just about one type of scenario and what public policy responce to it should be.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 11:18:07 AM »
Quote
Others please, this wasn't about Judaism or Israel (or Islam) writ large, just about one type of scenario and what public policy responce to it should be.
Oh come on.  Its much more fun to watch Werewolf and The Rabbi bicker.  grin

My views on an appropriate public policy on this mirrors that put forth by wingnutx.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 11:39:38 AM »
Quote
It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

People of both sexes are more prone to push and shove in Israel than they are stateside, esp. out west.  Whether it's because of the dense population or cultural heritage, I don't know.  And there's no doubt that at least some men who are attracted to the ultra orthodox sects have had problems with women and see the religion as a way of keeping them in their place.  That said, I'll agree there's a moral equivalence when the ultra orthodox are splashing women with acid, doing "honor killings," crushing them with walls, mutilating their private parts, etc. etc. etc. 

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2006, 12:01:04 PM »
Quote
It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

  That said, I'll agree there's a moral equivalence when the ultra orthodox are splashing women with acid, doing "honor killings," crushing them with walls, mutilating their private parts, etc. etc. etc. 

Can you document any of these things happening?  No.  I didnt think so.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2006, 12:12:29 PM »
He was referring to what the Muslim extremists have done in the past.

 
Quote
I'll agree there's a moral equivalence when the ultra orthodox are splashing women with acid, doing "honor killings," crushing them with walls, mutilating their private parts, etc. etc. etc.

Emphasis on the word when.
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2006, 01:41:24 PM »
Quote
It seems then that Islam isn't the only middle eastern religion with a monopoly on treating women like 2nd class citizens.

  That said, I'll agree there's a moral equivalence when the ultra orthodox are splashing women with acid, doing "honor killings," crushing them with walls, mutilating their private parts, etc. etc. etc. 

Can you document any of these things happening?  No.  I didnt think so.

That Muslims do them?  Of course.  Do you doubt it?  As I said, I'll agree there's a moral equivalence whe the ultra orthodox do these things.  Since they do not, I don't agree there's a moral equivalence.  I get along well with the Chabdniks stateside, but some of the more extreme sects are wired a little too tight.  Jews are supposed to be a light unto the nations, they're not supposed to beat the crap out of people on buses  grin

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2006, 02:07:14 PM »
Gunsmith, thanks, that is the news article I saw.

Others please, this wasn't about Judaism or Israel (or Islam) writ large, just about one type of scenario and what public policy responce to it should be.

Ya'll ever been in a bar fight?

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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2006, 03:55:16 PM »
Stand...your welcome...

For you other guys...remember...we must unite against the common enemy!
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Re: A woman attacked on a gender segregated bus in Israel...
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2006, 06:37:06 PM »
Gunsmith, thanks, that is the news article I saw.

Others please, this wasn't about Judaism or Israel (or Islam) writ large, just about one type of scenario and what public policy responce to it should be.

Ya'll ever been in a bar fight?

Not first hand.
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