Post by: roo_ster on February 03, 2006, 05:46:38 PM
"How Callow Is Your Youth"
I currently have a nasty sinus infection, so when I read the first bolded paragraph (my emphasis), I started into paroxysms of laughing/coughing that left me gasping, with a cough-induced headache, and my chest aching from the same. This internet thingy can be dangerous.
BTW, the following goes for just about any music/art/whatever that relies on cheesey rebelliousness.
Quote from: Jonah Goldberg
February 03, 2006, 8:09 a.m.
And the Cheat Goes On
Kanyes scam.
I'm in no position to judge the merits of Kanye West's music. I stopped listening to rap when you could still find Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five on the radio. These days I think it's mostly just noise.
When people tell me, "Oh, but it's technically very complicated," or "You don't understand how much work goes into it," I'm reminded of a scene from Don Quixote: A man walks to the center of town and gathers a crowd for the show he's about to put on. The man picks up a dog and inserts a tube into its rump. He begins to inflate the canine. The crowd watches, fascinated. The dog grows larger and rounder. Eventually, the man pulls the tube out and the air escapes loudly from the poor pooch's rear as it runs away. The man turns to the crowd and asks: "You think it's easy to inflate a dog with a tube?" Moral: Just because someone works hard at something doesn't mean it's great art.
That's my disclosure for those who'd charge me with not "getting" rap music: Guilty as charged.
But I do think I understand marketing and public relations, and I am astounded by the naïveté of young people black and white who actually buy the canned rebelliousness not just of rap music but of most pop music.
West is simply the latest example of decades of hucksterism. Under the headline "The Passion of Kanye West," the rap star graces the cover of Rolling Stone posing as a bloodied Jesus with a crown of thorns. I particularly enjoy the publicity around the piece. Clearly borrowing from the same press release, publications across the country proclaim that the "outspoken rapper defends his brash attitude inside the magazine."
Ah, yes. It's about time. After all, it's so rare to find a rapper with a brash attitude. Normally they're shy, retiring types overflowing with modesty and humility. I was particularly enamored with the "aw, shucks" Andy Griffith personalities of Niggaz Wit Attitude and the late Tupac Shakur.
We're supposed to believe that West has been persecuted for his anti-Bush tirades and his determination to keep it real. But his biggest complaint is that people criticize him for being arrogant. "You want me to be great, but you don't ever want me to say I'm great?" he asks.
Of course, the editors also hoped to stir up some controversy, maybe even incite some religious conservatives to play to type, by exploiting the imagery of Jesus's suffering. I never went to Sunday school, but I don't recall that Jesus was crucified for being smug.
Its all such an obvious con game. We hear so much about how kids today are cynical, skeptical, media-savvy, and so forth. But if they're buying this hooey, they're idiots.
When asked by Rolling Stone if he's worried that his outspokenness might cost him a Grammy, Kanye replied, speaking in the third person: "Kanye is always opinionated and outspoken, and now that it's Grammy time he turns into a house nigga? Come on. That's not even realistic." Right, but the suggestion that the guy with eight Grammy nominations is a pariah, never mind suffering from Christlike persecution, is entirely plausible?
Alas, this shtick works. It certainly worked for such "gangsta rappers" as Ice Cube, Ice-T, and Snoop Dogg, all of whom once talked a big game about keeping it real and not being "house niggas." Now they're all successful mainstream actors. Messrs. Cube and Dogg make a nice living appearing in family-friendly comedies. I guess acting came naturally to them.
Obviously, none of this is unique to rap or "black" music (quotation marks necessary because white suburban kids are the biggest market for the stuff). Big corporations have been marketing "rebellion" since the 1950s. And the kids fall for it every time. In 1968, Columbia Records promised in an ad that "the man can't bust our music!" Madonna made her career glamorizing slattern chic and attacking bourgeois morality. Now she peddles children's books.
Today, there's a great cellphone commercial in which a corporate executive explains to his assistant that his new billing plan is his own private way of "sticking it to the man." His assistant replies, "But sir, you are the man." The boss says, with some dismay, "I know."
As far as the music industry goes, Kanye West is the man, but he won't admit it. Instead, he sells himself as a victim of a society that can't handle his truth. Four million records sold and saturation adulation in the media suggest that it can handle his truth just fine.
The problem is, it ain't the truth. It's just a scam for kids too stupid to recognize they're being played again.
Want to be a real rebel? Read a book.
And the Cheat Goes On
Kanyes scam.
I'm in no position to judge the merits of Kanye West's music. I stopped listening to rap when you could still find Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five on the radio. These days I think it's mostly just noise.
When people tell me, "Oh, but it's technically very complicated," or "You don't understand how much work goes into it," I'm reminded of a scene from Don Quixote: A man walks to the center of town and gathers a crowd for the show he's about to put on. The man picks up a dog and inserts a tube into its rump. He begins to inflate the canine. The crowd watches, fascinated. The dog grows larger and rounder. Eventually, the man pulls the tube out and the air escapes loudly from the poor pooch's rear as it runs away. The man turns to the crowd and asks: "You think it's easy to inflate a dog with a tube?" Moral: Just because someone works hard at something doesn't mean it's great art.
That's my disclosure for those who'd charge me with not "getting" rap music: Guilty as charged.
But I do think I understand marketing and public relations, and I am astounded by the naïveté of young people black and white who actually buy the canned rebelliousness not just of rap music but of most pop music.
West is simply the latest example of decades of hucksterism. Under the headline "The Passion of Kanye West," the rap star graces the cover of Rolling Stone posing as a bloodied Jesus with a crown of thorns. I particularly enjoy the publicity around the piece. Clearly borrowing from the same press release, publications across the country proclaim that the "outspoken rapper defends his brash attitude inside the magazine."
Ah, yes. It's about time. After all, it's so rare to find a rapper with a brash attitude. Normally they're shy, retiring types overflowing with modesty and humility. I was particularly enamored with the "aw, shucks" Andy Griffith personalities of Niggaz Wit Attitude and the late Tupac Shakur.
We're supposed to believe that West has been persecuted for his anti-Bush tirades and his determination to keep it real. But his biggest complaint is that people criticize him for being arrogant. "You want me to be great, but you don't ever want me to say I'm great?" he asks.
Of course, the editors also hoped to stir up some controversy, maybe even incite some religious conservatives to play to type, by exploiting the imagery of Jesus's suffering. I never went to Sunday school, but I don't recall that Jesus was crucified for being smug.
Its all such an obvious con game. We hear so much about how kids today are cynical, skeptical, media-savvy, and so forth. But if they're buying this hooey, they're idiots.
When asked by Rolling Stone if he's worried that his outspokenness might cost him a Grammy, Kanye replied, speaking in the third person: "Kanye is always opinionated and outspoken, and now that it's Grammy time he turns into a house nigga? Come on. That's not even realistic." Right, but the suggestion that the guy with eight Grammy nominations is a pariah, never mind suffering from Christlike persecution, is entirely plausible?
Alas, this shtick works. It certainly worked for such "gangsta rappers" as Ice Cube, Ice-T, and Snoop Dogg, all of whom once talked a big game about keeping it real and not being "house niggas." Now they're all successful mainstream actors. Messrs. Cube and Dogg make a nice living appearing in family-friendly comedies. I guess acting came naturally to them.
Obviously, none of this is unique to rap or "black" music (quotation marks necessary because white suburban kids are the biggest market for the stuff). Big corporations have been marketing "rebellion" since the 1950s. And the kids fall for it every time. In 1968, Columbia Records promised in an ad that "the man can't bust our music!" Madonna made her career glamorizing slattern chic and attacking bourgeois morality. Now she peddles children's books.
Today, there's a great cellphone commercial in which a corporate executive explains to his assistant that his new billing plan is his own private way of "sticking it to the man." His assistant replies, "But sir, you are the man." The boss says, with some dismay, "I know."
As far as the music industry goes, Kanye West is the man, but he won't admit it. Instead, he sells himself as a victim of a society that can't handle his truth. Four million records sold and saturation adulation in the media suggest that it can handle his truth just fine.
The problem is, it ain't the truth. It's just a scam for kids too stupid to recognize they're being played again.
Want to be a real rebel? Read a book.
Post by: Guest on February 03, 2006, 05:55:59 PM
Post by: Chris Rhines on February 03, 2006, 05:59:24 PM
- Chris
Post by: Sindawe on February 03, 2006, 07:33:01 PM
As for "sticking it to the man", the fellows in Tool know what the music biz is about.
Quote
Hooker with a Penis
I met a boy wearing Vans, 501s, and a
Dope Beastie t, nipple rings, and
New tattoos that claimed that he
Was OGT,
From '92,
The first EP.
And in between
Sips of Coke
He told me that
He thought
We were sellin' out,
Layin' down,
Suckin' up
To the man.
Well now I've got some
A-dvice for you, little buddy.
Before you point the finger
You should know that
I'm the man,
And if I'm the man,
Then you're the man, and
He's the man as well so you can
Point that xxxxxx' finger up your xxx.
All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb xxx.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip xxxx,
And you bought one.
So I've got some
Advice for you, little buddy.
Before you point your finger
You should know that
I'm the man,
If I'm the xxxxxx' man
Then you're the xxxxxx' man as well
So you can
Point that xxxxxx' finger up your xxx.
All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb xxxx.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip xxx,
And you bought one.
All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar
So...Shut up and
Buy my new record
Send more money
xxxx you, buddy.
I have heard some musically complex rap and hip-hop peices, but they have been few and far between. Of course I don't listen to it a lot, since my musical tastes run elsewhere.
I met a boy wearing Vans, 501s, and a
Dope Beastie t, nipple rings, and
New tattoos that claimed that he
Was OGT,
From '92,
The first EP.
And in between
Sips of Coke
He told me that
He thought
We were sellin' out,
Layin' down,
Suckin' up
To the man.
Well now I've got some
A-dvice for you, little buddy.
Before you point the finger
You should know that
I'm the man,
And if I'm the man,
Then you're the man, and
He's the man as well so you can
Point that xxxxxx' finger up your xxx.
All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb xxx.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip xxxx,
And you bought one.
So I've got some
Advice for you, little buddy.
Before you point your finger
You should know that
I'm the man,
If I'm the xxxxxx' man
Then you're the xxxxxx' man as well
So you can
Point that xxxxxx' finger up your xxx.
All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb xxxx.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip xxx,
And you bought one.
All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar
So...Shut up and
Buy my new record
Send more money
xxxx you, buddy.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 04, 2006, 04:45:19 AM
http://www.fortminor.com
http://www.aznraps.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=41&func=download&id=24&chk=bc757b6a90bcd153548d1fd01427bfe2&virtuemart=0a62feaf7a08a0ac27f2ff543186642c
^^ this one links directly to a song
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 04, 2006, 04:46:19 AM
Please note it has adult language.
Quote
"Cigarettes"
Man I love this rap game
Mainly cuz its cool
To add a little spice to the life you've been through
Everyone exaggerates a tiny little bit
To make that *expletive deleted*it sound more gangster than it really is
You cant appear weak man
We wanna hear street
Wanna hear you spit your thug over this here beat
Dont take it as sarcastic
I can't get enough
Im telling you
You can call my bluff
If it's not rough, then I really don't need it
I'm not even ashamed
I got too much reality thats filling up my brain
so sell me on that chronic, I'm addicted to the game
Suck it up like a cigarette, light it up
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Let me tell you something that I realized tonight
My hip hop radio is like marlboro lights
They're both selling stories and they sound about the same
Cigarettes say their safe, rappers claim they really bang
We dont care if it's true when we lay the money down
We don't believe the words, we just love the way they sound
They're acting like we're idiots, They're lying to our face
Maybe we are idiots, we buy it anyway
I'm runnin out to get the next rapper's CD
Just suckin up the guns, drugs, and misogyny
The same way that I suck up all the stories
When I breathe that little bit of death supposedly cancer-free and
Everything they say's got the truth twisted up
But twisted up's what I want man, I can't get enough
Cuz even though we know it's all just a big bluff
We just light another up, what
We don't give a *expletive deleted*ck
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Over and over but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Listen to the words, Listen for awhile
Lip Service radio, dont touch the dial
If you're in the car
Turn up the track man
Give the whole neighborhood some second hand rap
Matter of fact
Listen to the words, Listen for awhile
Lip Service radio, dont touch the dial
If you're in the car
Turn up the track man
Give the whole neighborhood some second hand rap
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Over and over but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Man I love this rap game
Mainly cuz its cool
To add a little spice to the life you've been through
Everyone exaggerates a tiny little bit
To make that *expletive deleted*it sound more gangster than it really is
You cant appear weak man
We wanna hear street
Wanna hear you spit your thug over this here beat
Dont take it as sarcastic
I can't get enough
Im telling you
You can call my bluff
If it's not rough, then I really don't need it
I'm not even ashamed
I got too much reality thats filling up my brain
so sell me on that chronic, I'm addicted to the game
Suck it up like a cigarette, light it up
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Let me tell you something that I realized tonight
My hip hop radio is like marlboro lights
They're both selling stories and they sound about the same
Cigarettes say their safe, rappers claim they really bang
We dont care if it's true when we lay the money down
We don't believe the words, we just love the way they sound
They're acting like we're idiots, They're lying to our face
Maybe we are idiots, we buy it anyway
I'm runnin out to get the next rapper's CD
Just suckin up the guns, drugs, and misogyny
The same way that I suck up all the stories
When I breathe that little bit of death supposedly cancer-free and
Everything they say's got the truth twisted up
But twisted up's what I want man, I can't get enough
Cuz even though we know it's all just a big bluff
We just light another up, what
We don't give a *expletive deleted*ck
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Over and over but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Listen to the words, Listen for awhile
Lip Service radio, dont touch the dial
If you're in the car
Turn up the track man
Give the whole neighborhood some second hand rap
Matter of fact
Listen to the words, Listen for awhile
Lip Service radio, dont touch the dial
If you're in the car
Turn up the track man
Give the whole neighborhood some second hand rap
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Once in awhile but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Its just like a cigarette, its something that I do
Over and over but between me and you
Its just like a cigarette Nobody's really fooled
I dont want the truth, I wanna feel *expletive deleted*ing cool
Post by: Smith on February 04, 2006, 11:27:32 AM
How much did you pay for your bad Moto Guzzi?
And how much did you spend on your black leather jacket?
Is it you or your parents in this income tax bracket?
Now tickets to concerts and drinking at clubs,
Sometimes for music that you haven't even heard of.
And how much did you pay for your rock'n'roll t-shirt
That proves you were there,
That you heard of them first?
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
Ah, tell me.
How much did you pay for the chunk of his guitar,
The one he ruthlessly smashed at the end of the show?
And how much will he pay for a brand new guitar,
One which he'll ruthlessly smash at the end of another show?
And how long will the workers keep building him new ones?
As long as their soda cans are red, white, and blue ones.
And how long will the workers keep building him new ones?
As long as their soda cans are red, white, and blue ones.
Aging black leather and hospital bills,
Tattoo removal and dozens of pills.
Your liver pays dearly now for youthful magic moments,
But rock on completely with some brand new components.
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
How do you afford your rock'n'roll lifestyle?
Excess ain't rebellion.
You're drinking what they're selling.
Your self-destruction doesn't hurt them.
Your chaos won't convert them.
They're so happy to rebuild it.
You'll never really kill it.
Yeah, excess ain't rebellion.
You're drinking what they're selling.
Excess ain't rebellion.
You're drinking,
You're drinking,
You're drinking what they're selling.
-Cake
Post by: Winston Smith on February 04, 2006, 03:42:42 PM
90% of everything is crap.
90% of rap, is crap.
Rap is no better or worse or less or more valid than ANY other art form. Listen to "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and then listen to "Hung my Head" by Johnny Cash.
Man, 21st century, and we're still stuck on the fear of the unknown.
Post by: Guest on February 04, 2006, 04:02:13 PM
Quote from: Winston Smith
ahahahha... I love how the article criticises the naivete and ignorance the people who listen to rap, but is obviously ignorant of the non-mainstream stuff.
The article was *about* mainstream rap.
Post by: Winston Smith on February 04, 2006, 04:10:42 PM
Post by: Justin on February 04, 2006, 06:09:19 PM
Color me unimpressed.
I mean, let's face it, Jonah Goldberg is just picking on Kanye West to shamelessly mug for his audience by beating on someone who is in the sadly unfortunate, yet vanishingly small group of people who happen to be even less intellectually capable than himself.
It's like in high school when one of the cretinous jocks would pick on a Special Ed kid.
Post by: Guest on February 04, 2006, 06:40:14 PM
Quote
It's like in high school when one of the cretinous jocks would pick on a Special Ed kid.
I think your giving a bit too much credit. I think its more like the chess club kids beating up on the stamp collecting club. Much like this article, i would find that funny too, but probably not in the same way that the author intended.
Post by: richyoung on February 06, 2006, 06:56:04 AM
Post by: Justin on February 06, 2006, 07:36:50 AM
*edited for spelling.
Post by: richyoung on February 06, 2006, 11:56:07 AM
Quote from: Justin
How many instruments does Enya play? Or Dhizan and Khamien? Or Massive Attack? Or Harry Gregson Williams? Or Pavarotti, for that matter.
*edited for spelling.
If you are seriously goinig to equate a classical opera vocalist with the doggeral mumblings of rappers, you are beyond education. There ARE circumstances where the human voice can be considered an instrument - "rap" isn't one of them - neither is oration, in a strictly musical sense. Rap is nothing more than the modern offspring of the "dozens", crossed with jazz scat, minus the jazz.
*edited for spelling.
Post by: Guest on February 06, 2006, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: Justin
How many instruments does Enya play? Or Dhizan and Khamien? Or Massive Attack? Or Harry Gregson Williams? Or Pavarotti, for that matter.
*edited for spelling.
If you are seriously goinig to equate a classical opera vocalist with the doggeral mumblings of rappers, you are beyond education. There ARE circumstances where the human voice can be considered an instrument - "rap" isn't one of them - neither is oration, in a strictly musical sense. Rap is nothing more than the modern offspring of the "dozens", crossed with jazz scat, minus the jazz.*edited for spelling.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 06, 2006, 12:59:00 PM
Quote from: richyoung
Quick, someone remind me - what instrument does Emniem play? Fiddy-Cent? Snoop-dawg? Hard to cal it "music" when there's NO MUSICIANS involved, and even the beat comes from a box. Plus how many darn times we gotta here "marshal" whine about his daughter?
Well on the Fort Minor album, Mike Shinoda plays...all of the instruments.
Post by: richyoung on February 07, 2006, 07:16:33 AM
Quote
If you cant tell the difference between vocalists and players then you dont get to lecture anyone on the inner nuance of music. Your argument was that the supposed inability to play a musical instrument was directly connected with a lack of musical talent, and that argument is nonsense.
They may have all KINDS of musical talent - among them may be the next Smokey Robinson or Jimi Hendrix - HOWEVER, they have yet failed to DISPLAY any such talent, as none is found in rap, (the "c" is silent.) Shakespear is to "There was an old man from Nantucket" is to "bust a cap in yo a__" as Brahms is to Britany Spears is to Snoop Doggy Dog.
Post by: richyoung on February 07, 2006, 07:18:49 AM
Quote
How many instruments does Enya play?
One more than Eminem - (he plays 0) - after all, it WASN'T Enya that had to lift the music from an Eminem song to have a hit. I seem to recall it being the other way around....
Post by: richyoung on February 07, 2006, 07:21:29 AM
Quote from: richyoung
Quote
If you cant tell the difference between vocalists and players then you dont get to lecture anyone on the inner nuance of music. Your argument was that the supposed inability to play a musical instrument was directly connected with a lack of musical talent, and that argument is nonsense.
They may have all KINDS of musical talent - among them may be the next Smokey Robinson or Jimi Hendrix - HOWEVER, they have yet failed to DISPLAY any such talent, as none is found in rap, (the "c" is silent.) Shakespear is to "There was an old man from Nantucket" is to "bust a cap in yo a__" as Brahms is to Britany Spears is to Snoop Doggy Dog.What are YOUR credentials? Play anything, (outside of an MP3)?
Post by: Gun Runner on February 07, 2006, 07:51:50 PM
Quote from: richyoung
Quote
How many instruments does Enya play?
One more than Eminem - (he plays 0) - after all, it WASN'T Enya that had to lift the music from an Eminem song to have a hit. I seem to recall it being the other way around....Post by: richyoung on February 08, 2006, 04:34:17 AM
Quote from: Gun Runner
Quote from: richyoung
Quote
How many instruments does Enya play?
One more than Eminem - (he plays 0) - after all, it WASN'T Enya that had to lift the music from an Eminem song to have a hit. I seem to recall it being the other way around....Its the Fugees, Mario Winans, and the Pirates that copped Enya's music.
..and apparently P. Diddy, or whatever name he's using today.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 08, 2006, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: richyoung
There ARE circumstances where the human voice can be considered an instrument - "rap" isn't one of them - neither is oration, in a strictly musical sense. Rap is nothing more than the modern offspring of the "dozens", crossed with jazz scat, minus the jazz.
Wrong, rap is rhythmic chant that gets its origins from tribal ceremonies and shamanic trances, laid down over a heavy drum track and (sometimes) set to music.But I will not dispute that it IS performance art. It's a stretch to call most of it music. Some is even artistically impressive and inspired.
It's art. I don't think it takes much talent to steal Rick James' music (without attribution or royalties) and chant to it.
But just 'cause I don't like it (except for Matisyahu) doesn't mean it's not art.
Post by: roo_ster on February 08, 2006, 09:19:07 AM
While rap & Kanye West were used in the introduction of the article, the main thrust was the puerile rebelliousness hawked by so many musicians and the callow youths who eat it up.
It could have easily been Rage Against the Machine. (I found their music somewhat interesting, but I could not stop from giggling at the way they took themselves and their infantile politics/rebellion so seriously. Would that they took personal hygiene so seriously.)
All this unimpressive rebellion and the false courage it takes to express it gets echoed back & forth in the music/media sub-culture and makes them legends in their own minds...and the minds of some adolescents.
Of course, Sturgeon's Law is in effect: 90% of everything is cr@p. So, some (~10%) of it must be more than sorry imitation, sampling, and posturing.
Post by: richyoung on February 09, 2006, 08:41:18 AM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
Wrong, rap is rhythmic chant that gets its origins from tribal ceremonies and shamanic trances, laid down over a heavy drum track and (sometimes) set to music.
I profoundly disagree - it's got a LOT more roots in the Dirty Dozens, the "Shine on the Titanic" toast, and jazz "scat" singing. "Tribal ceremonies" my foot,...unless the Crips and Bloods are "tribes".Quote
It's art. I don't think it takes much talent to steal Rick James' music (without attribution or royalties) and chant to it.
But just 'cause I don't like it (except for Matisyahu) doesn't mean it's not art.
Agree on the Rick James - disagree on the art.
But just 'cause I don't like it (except for Matisyahu) doesn't mean it's not art.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 09, 2006, 12:33:26 PM
Post by: richyoung on February 09, 2006, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
When I was a teenager a few years back, my classical guitar teacher was also a sound engineer. I helped him on one rap album and I have to say, if you guys think sampling, layering beats, etc. etc. is easy, you are grossly ignorant. I can teach a person to play three chords on the guitar well enough to play hundreds of songs within a month. Do you think you could mix a 50 Cent (<---whose music I generally can't stand) song such as "Ski Mask Way"? Disco D produced the beat on that song. Do you think you could put it together? Of course it is ruined once 50 Cent starts rapping over it but still.
Sampling is PROFOUNDLY easier than learning to play, compose, and WRITING YOUR OWN MUSIC - else why sample? It's a LOT easier to program a drum machine than to play drums. Who do you think the REAL musicians are, Queen, or Vanilla Ice? Rick James or MC Hammer? Led Zepplin or P.Diddy? Stealing is easy....
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 09, 2006, 01:39:26 PM
Regardless, sampling is far from blatant stealing that is necessitated by a lack of talent. And if you really believe that, there is no use arguing with you.
Furthermore, I think some of us should read about how well over 100 years ago, people scoffed at the idea that a new technology was art. This technology was called "photography".
Post by: zahc on February 09, 2006, 03:00:14 PM
Stated more generally, X sucks, where X is any genre of popular music.
Thinking along genre lines is dangerous. There are only two kinds of music...music I like and music I don't.
Post by: Guest on February 09, 2006, 03:23:38 PM
Post by: brimic on February 09, 2006, 03:52:31 PM
Post by: richyoung on February 10, 2006, 04:58:53 AM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
So you're telling me that Nickleback (who has one song that they vary in 50 different ways) are better musicians than say the RZA?
Nickleback writes, arranges and PERFORMS the music on INSTRUMENTS. What "instrument" does RZA play, (other than a turntable, incorrectly...)? How much music theory does he know? Would you HONESTLY rank him alongside Louis Armstrong, Jimmy Hendrix, Nat King Cole, Scott Joplin?Quote
Sampling IS writing your own music.
NO. Smapling is stealing something someone else wrote and performed. Tone-Loc didn't WRITE the music to "Wild Thing" or "Funky Cold Medina" - Van Halen and KISS did - he just took it.Quote
By your logic, Beethoven was a hack because he used the same damn 12 notes that Bach used...and played mostly on the same instruments.
NO - he would have been a hack if he TOOK the composition of another, (its how you ARRANGE and TIME those twelve notes, plus how you ASSIGN them to different instruments....), and claimed it as his own. By the logic you are TRYING to assign to me, everybody who wrotes is plagerizing Shakespear because they use the same letters. Nope - not what I said. The music thieves are just recording a clip of someone else's work because they are A. incapable, or B. too lazy to WRITE AND PERFORM THEIR OWN WORK!Quote
Regardless, sampling is far from blatant stealing that is necessitated by a lack of talent. And if you really believe that, there is no use arguing with you.
In some cases, like the Gorillaz, you are right. In the vast amjority of them, the music of their betters is stolen, usually without the knowledge or permission of the original authors, to provide backing tracks for the obscene, violent doggeral that passes for "lyrics" in rap "music".Quote
Furthermore, I think some of us should read about how well over 100 years ago, people scoffed at the idea that a new technology was art. This technology was called "photography".
There may be artistic elements to photography, but even you would have to admit Ansel Adams ain't no Rembrant or Piccasso, (much less Maplethorp).
Post by: Balog on February 10, 2006, 03:57:18 PM
Neither are anything even remotely related to rap (my favorite Bogdan piece is entitled "Fnck you DJ") but both showcase the technical level that can be achieved.
And that's not even getting into the complicated world of Richard D. "Aphex Twin" James.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 10, 2006, 04:12:09 PM
Performance doesn't consitute muscianship, for example: a composer who can only play the piano marginally well but has a talent for arrangement and voicings...so he has an orchestra perform the work. Another point that I'm trying to make is that just because things are arranged differently, it doesn't matter if you're rearranging a "Am/C/G/Em" chord progression or some Van Halen riff on a sample. For 99.999% of musicians, it has all been done before. Of course you get those CRAZY performers like Armstrong or Jimi that revolutionize how people perceive musical theory and composition. But for the vast majority of musicians, they are reinventing the wheel. Just because they reinvent the wheel on instruments and perform on them doesn't make their art any more valid. Look at Johnny Cash, one of my favorite artists, he even rips guitar riffs and vocal melodies off of HIMSELF. Does that make him a non-musician?
Even though I've spent years studying the guitar style that is IMHO the most difficult, classical, I still don't understand why people think difficulty validates someone as an artist. I think that notion is somewhat juvenile, just as juvenile as a mall goth thinking he is really sticking it to the man by being fat, pissed off, and wearing black near the arcade
For an example of this, see the Yngwie, who is an incredibly guitarist from a technical standpoint...but who the hell cares? I'd rather listen to Cash play "G/C/D" and sing about life. Anyway, if you get the chance, go to http://www.fortminor.com with your speakers on and tell me that the voicings/beats of the first song that plays, "Remember the Name" are not excellent. All of this was arranged by one guy, who also performs, who also played all of the instruments on the album.
Post by: richyoung on February 14, 2006, 07:40:03 AM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
Rich- Dude you and I are like oil and water and I find it hilarious!
Performance doesn't consitute muscianship, for example: a composer who can only play the piano marginally well but has a talent for arrangement and voicings...so he has an orchestra perform the work.
...but he would be severly handicapped, if not precluded, from doing so if he could not play at all. Almost always, one had has to play something, even if at only a marginal level, to compose. The exception would be those individuals so gifted that they can compose and play entirely in their mind, but I'm sure you'll agree those aren't the individuals we are discussing...Performance doesn't consitute muscianship, for example: a composer who can only play the piano marginally well but has a talent for arrangement and voicings...so he has an orchestra perform the work.
Quote
Another point that I'm trying to make is that just because things are arranged differently, it doesn't matter if you're rearranging a "Am/C/G/Em" chord progression or some Van Halen riff on a sample.
I contend it most certainly DOES matter - from all standpoints, legal, moral & ethical. Serious question - can music be plaigerised? If so, what constitutes such plaigerism? I (and the courts) contend that it CAN be stolen...Quote
For 99.999% of musicians, it has all been done before.
Your midterm paper on Hemingway has been done before - thats no excuse to pass off someone else's work as your own....Quote
Of course you get those CRAZY performers like Armstrong or Jimi that revolutionize how people perceive musical theory and composition. But for the vast majority of musicians, they are reinventing the wheel.
As a classical guitar player, I would expect you to know that the "reinventing the wheel" stage had to be passed through by the creative geniuses you list before they could transend the current state of the art. Imagine how much poorer the world woud be if Eddie or Jimi just pasted together tapes of other bands and "rapped" doggeral verse over them, instend of working up to, and through, the "reinventing the wheel" stage. Not to mention that you sell the enire process far too short: think anyone else ever used the chords G - D -C, G- D- Am, before Bob Dylan "reinvented the wheel" and wrote "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"?Quote
Just because they reinvent the wheel on instruments and perform on them doesn't make their art any more valid.
Yes, it does. As someone who can play an instrument, it should right roundly P-*-*-* you off that some one can steal, (frequently without authorization) someone else's real music, slap some bathroom wall poetry over it, and call it "music". They are no more "musicians" than the fellow who loads the cds into the jukebox.Quote
Look at Johnny Cash, one of my favorite artists, he even rips guitar riffs and vocal melodies off of HIMSELF. Does that make him a non-musician?
No it means he can only sing comfortably in a handful of keys, and that his playing style tends to emphasize certain keys out of that range. If his whole career was based on "sampling" James Brown and Sony and Cher, and bragging about getting shot over the samples, then yes, that WOULD make him less of a musician.Quote
Even though I've spent years studying the guitar style that is IMHO the most difficult, classical, I still don't understand why people think difficulty validates someone as an artist.
...maybe because if its easy, and everyone or almost everyone can perform it, it won't receive respect. Just like sports - I notice "hopscotch" and "bowling" aren't olympic events....Quote
I think that notion is somewhat juvenile, just as juvenile as a mall goth thinking he is really sticking it to the man by being fat, pissed off, and wearing black near the arcade For an example of this, see the Yngwie, who is an incredibly guitarist from a technical standpoint...but who the hell cares? I'd rather listen to Cash play "G/C/D" and sing about life.
As a guitarist myself, I appreciate both. Guitar gymnasts like Yngwie, Micheal Angelo, Vai, Satriani, Van Halen expand minds and push the boundaries of whats considered "possible" on the instrument. A blistering speed lick is just as valid an expression of emotion as "Folsom Prison Blues" - its another tool in the toolbox. But i would rather listen to ANYONE playing an instrument with a living, breathing rhytm section than any canned, sampled rap dreck. (Besides, that "mall goth" kid just MIGHT be inspired by the Man in Black....) For an example of this, see the Yngwie, who is an incredibly guitarist from a technical standpoint...but who the hell cares? I'd rather listen to Cash play "G/C/D" and sing about life.Quote
Anyway, if you get the chance, go to http://www.fortminor.com with your speakers on and tell me that the voicings/beats of the first song that plays, "Remember the Name" are not excellent. All of this was arranged by one guy, who also performs, who also played all of the instruments on the album.
I'm firewalled from this site while at work - if he played the instruments, then HE isn't the kind of cat I'm complaining about.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 14, 2006, 01:14:23 PM
There is really nothing I can say that can convince you that sampling is not stealing and that there is a high degree of musicianship involved. I've been on both sides, I've worked with people who do sampling and I also play an instrument. I think you just need to sit down with someone who samples while they're working on something.
I don't see a difference in me playing "0-2-2-X-X-X", eight times in a row, at 220 bpm, all downstrokes a la Metallica and samping a tiny clip Metallica playing the same thing.
Post by: Guest on February 14, 2006, 02:30:51 PM
Post by: richyoung on February 15, 2006, 04:55:49 AM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
Rich,
There is really nothing I can say that can convince you that sampling is not stealing and that there is a high degree of musicianship involved. I've been on both sides, I've worked with people who do sampling and I also play an instrument. I think you just need to sit down with someone who samples while they're working on something.
I've been on both sides as well - I worked at Frontier Music in Lawton Oklahoma from 1994 until 2001 on Saturdays. I did minor repairs and sold gear to all kinds. I'm not saying that sampling is completely devoid of musicianship - it just requires a lot less than actually playing, Ansel Adams may be a heck of a photographer, but none of his work rises to the level of a "Night Watch", or a "Mona Lisa", or "The Scream".There is really nothing I can say that can convince you that sampling is not stealing and that there is a high degree of musicianship involved. I've been on both sides, I've worked with people who do sampling and I also play an instrument. I think you just need to sit down with someone who samples while they're working on something.
Quote
I don't see a difference in me playing "0-2-2-X-X-X", eight times in a row, at 220 bpm, all downstrokes a la Metallica and samping a tiny clip Metallica playing the same thing.
I do - and here;'s one difference. To play it on guitar, you have to learn it. To play it at 220 bpm, you have to practice, at least a little. To play it at that speed, correct, almost all of the time requires more practice. To sample it, you don't need to practice at all and you don't even need a guitar and amp. See the difference?
Post by: richyoung on February 15, 2006, 04:59:09 AM
Quote from: c_yeager
When a jazz musician "samples" during improvization it is called "quoting", is that "stealing" too?
Not unless it consists of a major part of a new work he claims authorship over. April Wine's "I Like To Rock" tipped its musical hat to the Beatle's "Day Tripper" and the Stone's "Satisfaction". If you can't understand the difference, that WOULD go a long way toward explaining why this mush is polluting the air waves as "popular" music...
Post by: 280plus on February 16, 2006, 02:14:00 AM
FWIW, I spent last Saturday nght helping to set up and break down the sound for a 16 or so member Spanish style group. Classical guitars, congas, timbales, horns, string section, two percussionists, upright bass and a drummer, the works. All miked and with monitors. It had been a LONG time since I'd done any of that. It was like being a kid again!
I even trouble shot a hum for them. Seems you can't run the same signal through THREE preamps befroe it gets to the power amp.
Who woulda thunk? 