Leftist activists call Peres 'criminal' in France

[MicroBalrog]

See my comment above re: Hamas.

[seeker_two]

ss: The fact that Israel has the capacity to wipe every Palestinian off the face of the Earth, yet still puts up with their murderous practices, speaks volumes about their restraint. I don't advocate genocide, but I could understand the reasoning for it in this case.....

Even the US did a lot worse to the Indians/Native Americans for a lot less....

[The Rabbi]

blah blah blah disbelieve blah blah.

Whatever. 

Yep- I don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant about Palestinians. 

You won't let an Israeli convince you that the military complex is harmful there and that it is oppressive; neither will you let anyone else convince you that you are wrong about Palestinians.  I don't believe that facts are the basis of your opinion on this subject.

Fixed for ya.
The Palestinians have been offered every chance and have blown it because of their indoctgrinted hatrd of Israel.  Period.

[johnster999]

Arguments of moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians are nonsensical. If the Palestinian leadership had the military power of the Israelis they would use it to drive all the Israelis into the sea. No peace process. No Deals. No Mercy. They've stated as much themselves, repeatedly.

[De Selby]

Arguments of moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians are nonsensical. If the Palestinian leadership had the military power of the Israelis they would use it to drive all the Israelis into the sea. No peace process. No Deals. No Mercy. They've stated as much themselves, repeatedly.

So have many of the Israelis-but regardless of which side has the power, genocide is (thank God) not an option in this world. 

That holds true both for the Kahanist nuts who once held some serious way in Israel and for the anti-semite nuts who hold sway in Palestine.

[MicroBalrog]

Kahanist nuts never, to my knowledge, held serious sway in Israel, and does not hold such sway today outside Federman and his utterly insane cronies.

[De Selby]

Kahanist nuts never, to my knowledge, held serious sway in Israel, and does not hold such sway today outside Federman and his utterly insane cronies.

I was going off of articles to this effect:  http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320266,00.html

That could clearly be distorted, and there's no question that it is a minority...but as far as the information available in english goes, it looks like a significant and dangerous minority.

Edit:

I don't want to imply that Yigal Amir and his ilk actually do hold sway with all Israelis now; just that they did have some significant support, and that there are those on the Israeli side of this confict who call for "ethnic cleansing" (a la Baruch Goldstein) and that they are just as wrong as the psycho Palestinians who call for "pushing the Jews into the sea."  They are both deeply immoral and wrong in their goals.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh sure I agree with you.

Note of course, a lot of people support pardon for Yigal Amir who don't also support 'killing all the Arabs', in fact, I'm not sure HE supports that.

There are issues surrounding this guy having nothing to do with the original assassination, or Arabs, or Israeli foreign policy at all.

I don't want to imply that Yigal Amir and his ilk actually do hold sway with all Israelis now; just that they did have some significant support, and that there are those on the Israeli side of this confict who call for "ethnic cleansing" (a la Baruch Goldstein) and that they are just as wrong as the psycho Palestinians who call for "pushing the Jews into the sea."  They are both deeply immoral and wrong in their goals.

Absolutely.

It amazes me that this sort of view seems to be more common abroad than it is here.

[De Selby]

Absolutely.

It amazes me that this sort of view seems to be more common abroad than it is here.

That is a good point-and a good reason for all countries to be leery of foreign "aid."  Sometimes the foreigners support crazy agendas for their own purposes, not for the good of the recepient of "aid."

I wish we could create a special island just for the crazies who want to duke it out no matter the cost-they can have their place, and leave the rest of us alone.  Too bad they're never happy unless they draw other people into the craziness...

[Manedwolf]

Arguments of moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians are nonsensical. If the Palestinian leadership had the military power of the Israelis they would use it to drive all the Israelis into the sea. No peace process. No Deals. No Mercy. They've stated as much themselves, repeatedly.

So have many of the Israelis-but regardless of which side has the power, genocide is (thank God) not an option in this world. 

That holds true both for the Kahanist nuts who once held some serious way in Israel and for the anti-semite nuts who hold sway in Palestine.

Oh, if Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would be a white flash. And don't even try to pretend otherwise.

[wooderson]

He doesn't need to 'pretend otherwise,' because that's patently absurd.

Yes, they'd use a nuclear weapon, in close proximity to themselves and their people, an act that would immediately call down the wrath of the world on them, resulting in their hasty destruction.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, if Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would be a white flash. And don't even try to pretend otherwise.

And Hamas doesn't have a nuclear weapon.

Hell, they don't even have the support of the majority of the Palestinians in Gaza for their rocket attacks.

Hamas =/= Palestinians.

[The Rabbi]

He doesn't need to 'pretend otherwise,' because that's patently absurd.

Yes, they'd use a nuclear weapon, in close proximity to themselves and their people, an act that would immediately call down the wrath of the world on them, resulting in their hasty destruction.

Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.
They've already been labeled as a terrorist org by the US and most of Europe.  What else is anyone going to do to them?

[wooderson]

Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.

Who, unfortunately for them, don't control any of the local powers.

You think Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to give up their good standing with the US and EU to aid a minor party that's just nuked a civilian population center? Really?

Iran wouldn't even step in on their behalf in the event of an act of destruction of that magnitude.

Even terrorists are, by and large, rational actors. They aren't going to ensure their own immediate and wholesale destruction to strike one blow.

[The Rabbi]

Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.

Who, unfortunately for them, don't control any of the local powers.

You think Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to give up their good standing with the US and EU to aid a minor party that's just nuked a civilian population center? Really?

Iran wouldn't even step in on their behalf in the event of an act of destruction of that magnitude.

Even terrorists are, by and large, rational actors. They aren't going to ensure their own immediate and wholesale destruction to strike one blow.

What makes you think they aren't already aiding them?  There are lots of ways to do it and just hide the fact.  As for destruction of that magnitude, do you honestly think that the Muslims who hate Israel think there is some optimum level of Jewish destruction?  No, the more the better.

[wooderson]

What makes you think they aren't already aiding them?

Try to stay on topic.

The issue is after a nuclear attack on an Israeli population center (which is, of course, laughable given the confines - but we're going to treat manedwolf's daydreams as potential reality), and the ensuing response from

What they're "already" doing is irrelevant. Unless you're privy to an as-yet-unknown nuclear attack.

As for destruction of that magnitude, do you honestly think that the Muslims who hate Israel think there is some optimum level of Jewish destruction?  No, the more the better.

This is simply incoherent.

[The Rabbi]

What they are already doing is a good indicator of how they will treat any future action.
Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas.  This is obvious.  Hamas has the sworn purpose of annhilating Israel off the map.  This is well established.  If they were to succeed in detonating a nuclear bomb of any size and yield that did that, they would be further to their purpose, which is supported by their current backers.
I don't see why any of this should engender controversy.

[wooderson]

What they are already doing is a good indicator of how they will treat any future action.

No, it's not.
Nothing the Palestinians have ever done is even vaguely similar to a nuclear attack killing hundreds of thousands of people.

Providing aid to the Gaza government today has no relation to the fallout from such an act.

(Which is, of course, why the scenario of a nuclear attack is such a fantastic piece of mental gymnastics.)

Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas.

Now you're switching up again - first it was the governments of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia - now you're arguing "Muslim radicals." Obviously Jordan and Egypt aren't governed by radicals, and Saudi Arabia is confined by its relationship with the US.

You have a heckuva time sticking to one line of reasoning, don't you?

Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas.  This is obvious.  Hamas has the sworn purpose of annhilating Israel off the map.

Ah, but you're making a leap in logic there - that anyone who offers support to the Gaza government is "supporting the annihilation of Israel." There's no reason to make that leap.

[The Rabbi]

No, you're right.
Those who support Hamas are actually pro-Israel and are just doing it to hedge their bets.  Yeah.

Your points are even less coherent and logical than usual.

[wooderson]

Yes, because there are no positions in between "pro-Israel" and supporting the immediate annihilation of everyone within its borders.

Your idea of coherence and logic is... interesting.

[The Rabbi]

In the Muslim world (the one that is most involved anyway) there is only one position: destruction of the state.  Everything else is window dressing.

[wooderson]

 

[The Rabbi]

Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic  Resistance  Movement  is  a  distinguished  Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and  whose  way  of  life  is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah  over  every  inch  of

Palestine.' (Article 6)



On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

Fatah:

Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation.

Hezbollah:

It was not by sheer coincidence that Hezbollah turned into a struggle movement against the Israeli occupation. because Hezbollahs ideological ideals sees no legitimacy for the existence of Israel. [edited 1st June02] The conflict becomes one of legitimacy that is based on religious ideals. The seed of resistance is deep in the ideological beliefs of Hezbollah, a belief that found its way for statement against the Zionist occupation of Lebanon. That is why we also find the slogan of the liberation of Jerusalem rooted deeply in the ideals of Hezbollah.

[wooderson]

With more than a billion Muslims in the world, every last one subscribing to the beliefs of those three organizations, it's hard to believe that the Palestinians struggle so much with the basic maintenance of their state.

[The Rabbi]

With more than a billion Muslims in the world, every last one subscribing to the beliefs of those three organizations, it's hard to believe that the Palestinians struggle so much with the basic maintenance of their state.

Nice strawman there, chief.  No one said every Muslim believes that.   Not that will matter to you.