Anti Radical Islam Film Yanked

[Scout26]

True-and it wasn't black guys or Arabs with turbans who marched millions of people into gas chambers in Europe.  But that is hardly reasonable grounds for insinuating something about white people or Europeans, and it is equally unreasonable to insinuate something about all Muslims in the same way.

Yep, but is was a lot of "black and white" guys that defeated those who marched those millions into th gas chambers.  It was also Europeans that have effectively outlawed/banned neo-nazi's and repudiate any and all of their activities.  Close to the same thing here in the US.  Yep you can be a neo-nazi but half of your Sturmabteilung is going to be FBI informants, if not actual FBI agents.

IIRc The German Chancellor was in Isreal recently http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3520679,00.html  Gemany continues to pay for it's past, not only monetarily, but also politically and emotionally.

[S. Williamson]

 

What was that thing I posted some time ago about opposing sides pissing on the same electrical fence?

[Manedwolf]

What was that thing I posted some time ago about opposing sides pissing on the same electrical fence?

So in other words, don't discuss a very serious matter because one person is deliberately misrepresenting the film instead of discussing its content, hoping to get the thread shut down?

Yes, that's precisely what SS wants. He's pulling a CAIR.

You also might be interested to know that the UN released a statement that amounts to handwringing pleas for nonconfrontation, basically, "don't make the sociopaths angry again or they'll kill us all".

I'm having no part of that.

[S. Williamson]

This is a serious matter.

This isn't a discussion.

You assume that the opposition is rational.

Due to the opposition's inflexibility, I question its rationality... as I question yours.

You are attempting to have a discussion with what, at its core, is a wall.

If I were to come across a Ph.D in quantum physics having a "serious" discussion with a wall concerning the fact that matter is 99.9...% empty space and thus he should be able to pass through the wall without opposition, you know what I'd do?

Same thing as I'm doing here.  Roll my eyes and keep walking.

His argument is rational, and it makes sense.

But that doesn't mean it does a bit of good.

[De Selby]

I guess that's the difference between us.  I'm willing to lay down my life to ensure that you can speak freely and worship as you choose.  You're also willing to lay down my life to ensure that I can't speak freely nor worship (or not) as I choose, unless I agree with you and follow your religion. 

Wait a second here-let's get clear on this point.  I am 100 percent behind people having the freedom to post whatever they want and to speak their minds.

That doesn't mean I have to approve of or reproduce their work.  And this is a thread that reproduces and approves of this material, not a thread designed to support it against a non-existent challenge to free speech. 

[Manedwolf]

And this is a thread that reproduces and approves of this material, not a thread designed to support it against a non-existent challenge to free speech. 

Error. You bent your own logic so much that it became recursive. Divide by zero.

Please insert another quarter and play again.

[johnster999]

My brief summary of the film, for the benefit those who wish to brand it as propaganda without having to actually watch it:

Soft and somewhat sad music plays in the background throughout.
Verses from the Koran are displayed and read on screen.
Islamic Imams and clerics are displayed from various parts of the Islamic world, shouting out sermons of violence, execution and world domination. Their words and tone are very clear and require little interpretation. Convert or kill everyone and take over the world is the overall theme, along with the usual condemnation of Jews, Christians, gays, the USA, etc.
Striking is how well their sermons dovetail with the actual verses cited. We can argue all day how such verses should be interpreted, but it's clear that the featured clerics interpret them just as the filmmaker argues.

Imagery from the 9-11 attacks and other bombings are shown in conjunction with the verses and sermons in order to draw the parallel between word and deed.
Scenes of executions are shown including a particularly disturbing one in which a woman is shot in the head for something she did against Islamic law.

Toward the end of the film, imagery of Mosques and other structures are shown in Europe. Statistics of Muslim population and it's growth in Europe over the last few decades is shown.
In conjunction with this, clerics in Europe are shown echoing much of the same anti-western sentiment shown earlier in the film. They state rather clearly that they intended to take over Europe and do not currently respect the laws of traditions of their host countries. They assert that Islam is the valid law governing Muslims everywhere, not the laws or customs of any host country.

The film finishes up with written statements of the filmmaker imploring his countrymen and others to resist the rise of Islamic power in their countries.

[Iain]

I've put the Quranic quotes in as Geert did in the film and as they are found in an authorised translation on the internet

Geert's version of Surah 8 v. 60:

Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering

to strike terror

to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

- http://www.submission.org/ (Submission will get a reaction all of its own I expect)

So Geert snips the verse to get what he wants. He also ignores the next verse, which puts a slightly different spin on it all. Quote mining perhaps?


Geert's version of Surah 4 v. 56

Those who have disbelieved our signs,
we shall roast them in fire

whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them

that they may feel the punishment
verily Allah is sublime and wise

Allegorical Description of Hell

[4:56] Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

Ah, so it's a description of hell. Like the eternal torments predicted for unbelievers elsewhere. More quote mining.

Geert's version of Surah 47 v. 4

Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers,

smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them

bind a bond firmly on them

[47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

The worst example of quote mining yet. He gives us no indiction that he has snipped the quote up, he ignores the war context and ignores the advice about ransoming or releasing captives instead choosing to highlight the captives part. Not looking good for Geert so far.

Geert's version of Surah 4 v. 89

They but wish that ye should reject the faith

as they do and thus be on the same footing as they,

so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah

But if they turn renegades, seize and kill them whenever ye find them

and take no friends or helpers from their ranks

[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

That all looks quite different to Geert's version. Translations are what they are, but snipping up a translation to achieve an effect is what I suspect has been done here.

Let's take a look at 4:90

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

How bloodthirsty. Taken together those two verses look like part of a set of rules on who you can fight and when, especially when pertaining to those who 'turn against you'.

Geert's version of Surah 8 v. 39

Fight them until there is no dissension

and the religion is entirely Allah's

[8:39] You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do.

Probably two very different translations, and they bear no apparent relation because of what should now be obvious as quote mining.

Now the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.

Stop Islamisation

Well, that was interesting. I hope questions have been raised about Geert's intentions based on his quote mining. Propaganda is most effective when it mixes truth (no-one denies the existence of radical Islam or terrorist actions carried out in its name) with half-truths (the quotes above) with a dash of fear mongering which is what the graphs representing the muslim population are solely intended to do.

[LadySmith]

Well dang, Iain. You just had to come along and mellow the harsh. 

[Manedwolf]

I've put the Quranic quotes in as Geert did in the film and as they are found in an authorised translation on the internet

[/size]

Authorized by whom?

And I notice you entirely discounted all of the horrible things the radical imams were calling for? THEY are the ones who have been interpreting the Koran in those ways, picking verses to use to suit their agenda, and using it to legitimize their inhuman behavior! Geert isn't the first one to say those verses those way...that's how the radical imams and terorrists scream them to their violent followers as they declare jihad!

You entirely missed the point of the film. 

Apparently you also missed the burning of the producer in effigy and a mob in Pakistan and elsewhere calling for his immediate death, to prove how nonviolent they are. And ignored that LiveLeak took it down because of death threats against their staff.

Just can't figure out why Europe is so eager to bow and scrape, to tolerate intolerance and make excuses for it, instead of declaring, loudly, "If you wish to live in Western civilization, you will abide by Western civilization's rules." Guess Madrid, the Underground, a bus, an airport entrance and a bunch of innocent girls being honor killed every year weren't enough.

Oh well.

[Iain]

And I notice you

Geert

and terorrists scream them to their violent

film.

bow and scrape,

declaring, loudly,

you will

Madrid a bus

Oh well.

For the sake of others - what I have done there is no less a hatchet job than Geert has done.

The point Geert was making was that there are inflammatory verses in the Quran (a book he has compared to Mein Kampf) and that he thinks that Muslims should rip them out.

However, he is not honest enough to present those verses in their entirety. He presents us with snippets of a text, something that we should know is an attempt to manipulate us.

There are points to be made about radical Islam, but they should not be made in a context of highlighting increasing numbers of muslim immigration whilst only portraying radical Islam and not the rest of mainstream Islam. This is an old trick, and a vile one.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Manedwolf,

Do you watch every anti-semitic film that circulates the net just to confirm to yourself that it's actually anti-semitic trash?

The produce is a frothing at the mouth Muslim hater.  He is no different than the people who spout garbage about Jews and Judaism. 

And of course, as I predicted, this isn't about free speech.  You agree with his views and his agenda, which is why you are reposting this Muslim-hating propaganda. 

So why all the window dressing of "free speech", when that's not really the reason you are spreading this material?

would that be a very windy version of "no i didn't watch it"?

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

Do you watch every anti-semitic film that circulates the net just to confirm to yourself that it's actually anti-semitic trash?

The produce is a frothing at the mouth Muslim hater.  He is no different than the people who spout garbage about Jews and Judaism. 

And of course, as I predicted, this isn't about free speech.  You agree with his views and his agenda, which is why you are reposting this Muslim-hating propaganda. 

So why all the window dressing of "free speech", when that's not really the reason you are spreading this material?

would that be a very windy version of "no i didn't watch it"?

No.

[Nitrogen]

Wow, after reading some of the tripe in this thread, I hate Liberals too.
And I consider myself one.

After spending time here I totally understand why you folks tend to hate 'em so much.  The leftist stupidity in this thread makes my lefty brain spin.

Everyone should read hate literature.  I read Mein Kampf mostly because it was a banned book where I went to school.  I made it a point to read as many banned books as I could.  There's a lot to learn about reading crazy stuff; learning how crazy people think allows you to better rebut crazy stuff when you see it.

Same with this crazy muslim crap you see.  It's Nazi Germany all over again.  In Nazi Germany, Hitler unified the people by giving them common enemies.  Many nations in the middle east are doing the same thing now.  They hate Jews and America because their media and government tell them to.  It takes the onus of their problems off the horribly corrupt governments that keep them down.

The Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of this.   You hear about how horrible Zionism is. Did you realize that after WWI, the British originally planned to give most of the region of Palestine to the Jews?  Obviously, that didn't happen.  Most of the area became Jordan.  Everything West of the river Jordan was supposedly for the Jews.

Look at what the Arabs could have had if they weren't so bloodthirsty for Jewish destruction:



Only the UN went back on its word in 1947. The UN wanted to give quite a bit of what today is Israel to the Arabs.  Israel was mostly fine with that, but the Arabs wanted more, and went to war over it in 1948.  You can see how well that went for the Arabs.

So they tried again in 1968.  We all know how well that went, too.

The arabs in the area had a homeland, and lost parts of it due to their irrational hatred of the Jews.   The people that call themselves palestanians dont' want a homeland, they want to destroy Israel.  They've tried twice, and will keep trying until they succeed.

[De Selby]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

The entire debate about refugees and other countries will never find a solution to the problem, because it is premised on the theory that these are two foreign peoples fighting each other.  They aren't-the Palestinians live on exactly the same plot of land that the Israelis live on.  You have to admit that and deal with it before you can come up with a sensible position on this issue.

[Manedwolf]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

They "want" Israel because Israel took a bit of hardscrabble desert and made a working 21st century civilization with power, clean water, modern airports, and buses that run on time. Of course they covet that. Due to their dysfunctional, backstabbing culture, their areas look more like post-civilization pestholes full of bullet-pocked, half-ruined buildings. And if they were "given" Israel, all the stuff they covet would, under their rule, first stop working, and then be blown up and shot to pieces.

And they don't see that.

[roo_ster]

They don't see it even when shown exactly that: fine example being the forced withdrawal form settlements in Gaza.

Millions & millions of dollars' worth of infrastructure destroyed by rampaging Palis after the Israelis un@zzed the AO.

Freakin' savages.

[De Selby]

They don't see it even when shown exactly that: fine example being the forced withdrawal form settlements in Gaza.

Millions & millions of dollars' worth of infrastructure destroyed by rampaging Palis after the Israelis un@zzed the AO.

Freakin' savages.

Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of the destruction was done by angry settlers-didn't want to leave anything to the Palestinians that they believed was theirs.  These are the types of folks who celebrated in the streets when Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 people.

Sometimes the facts just don't help us maintain our prejudices against this race or that race.

[De Selby]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

They "want" Israel because Israel took a bit of hardscrabble desert and made a working 21st century civilization with power, clean water, modern airports, and buses that run on time. Of course they covet that. Due to their dysfunctional, backstabbing culture, their areas look more like post-civilization pestholes full of bullet-pocked, half-ruined buildings. And if they were "given" Israel, all the stuff they covet would, under their rule, first stop working, and then be blown up and shot to pieces.

And they don't see that.

Uh, right-and I suppose the fact that this is their home too and they still live there has nothing to do with it? 

[Manedwolf]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

They "want" Israel because Israel took a bit of hardscrabble desert and made a working 21st century civilization with power, clean water, modern airports, and buses that run on time. Of course they covet that. Due to their dysfunctional, backstabbing culture, their areas look more like post-civilization pestholes full of bullet-pocked, half-ruined buildings. And if they were "given" Israel, all the stuff they covet would, under their rule, first stop working, and then be blown up and shot to pieces.

And they don't see that.

Uh, right-and I suppose the fact that this is their home too and they still live there has nothing to do with it? 

Did you not read what I said?

Look what Israel did with what they have. Look what the Palis did with what they have.

When Israel backed out of some settlements that had fully modern infrastructure, the Palis looted and destroyed it!!!
If a culture is given an area with premade modern, safe, code-built buildings all ready to move into, and they instead go on a wild frenzy of smashing, ripping out fixtures and all, you know...that culture is freaking broken.

[De Selby]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

They "want" Israel because Israel took a bit of hardscrabble desert and made a working 21st century civilization with power, clean water, modern airports, and buses that run on time. Of course they covet that. Due to their dysfunctional, backstabbing culture, their areas look more like post-civilization pestholes full of bullet-pocked, half-ruined buildings. And if they were "given" Israel, all the stuff they covet would, under their rule, first stop working, and then be blown up and shot to pieces.

And they don't see that.

Uh, right-and I suppose the fact that this is their home too and they still live there has nothing to do with it? 

Did you not read what I said?

Look what Israel did with what they have. Look what the Palis did with what they have.

When Israel backed out of some settlements that had fully modern infrastructure, the Palis looted and destroyed it!!!
If a culture is given an area with premade modern, safe, code-built buildings all ready to move into, and they instead go on a wild frenzy of smashing, ripping out fixtures and all, you know...that culture is freaking broken.

This would be the same as above-the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of damage was done by settlers who destroyed everything rather than leave it to Arabs.  There was also the army's bulldozing of all the homes-that did plenty of damage too. 

But yeah, I like how you completely ignore the fact that the Palestinians actually live there too, except they don't have any rights.  It's their home, that's why they are so fired up about it, not because the Israelis have cool toys.

[Scout26]

I like how you completely ignore the fact that the Palestinians actually live there too, except they don't have any rights.

Yep, and now they have the West Bank and Gaza and what are they doing with those areas ?

I bolded part of your text because the Pali's don't believe that anyone else should live there "too".


Yes, and they have "no" rights.
"The Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights. Arabs are represented in the Knesset, and have served in the Cabinet, high-level foreign ministry posts (e.g., Ambassador to Finland) and on the Supreme Court."

ShootinStudent can you give me the number of Jews that have served in the Parliment of an Arab Country ??  Served in an Arab Country's Cabinet or even served as a Judge in an Arab Country ??

Wow, interesting read, but obviously "propaganda"     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab

Any particular reason that the Israelis can't have less then 2% of the land in the Middle East to call home ??

[De Selby]

I like how you completely ignore the fact that the Palestinians actually live there too, except they don't have any rights.

Yep, and now they have the West Bank and Gaza and what are they doing with those areas ?

I bolded part of your text because the Pali's don't believe that anyone else should live there "too".


Yes, and they have "no" rights.
"The Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights. Arabs are represented in the Knesset, and have served in the Cabinet, high-level foreign ministry posts (e.g., Ambassador to Finland) and on the Supreme Court."

ShootinStudent can you give me the number of Jews that have served in the Parliment of an Arab Country ??  Served in an Arab Country's Cabinet or even served as a Judge in an Arab Country ??

Wow, interesting read, but obviously "propaganda"     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab

Any particular reason that the Israelis can't have less then 2% of the land in the Middle East to call home ??

Yeah, sorry, but they don't have the west bank and Gaza-Israel asserts every right of sovereignty over those areas.   It stations troops permanently in the West Bank.  So yeah, you're going to have to scratch that from the list of places the Palestinians "have."

Arab countries don't have real parliaments, so that question is moot-but Jews do currently and have served since there was an Iranian parliament in the parliament of Iran.  There is no real question that Israeli Arab citizens face discrimination-they have a different set of legal rights (quick examples: they can't bring relatives to their country or marry Jews and expect the same rights as a Jewish couple) and I doubt you could find a single, even one, Israeli Arab who says that he is treated equally by the Israeli state, branch of service regardless.

In any case, the practices of backwards medieval monarchies next door has absolutely zero bearing on the question at hand, which is, again:  How do you propose to deal with the half the population that isn't Jewish, living in the Jewish state, currently without rights?

[Manedwolf]

Arab countries don't have real parliaments, so that question is moot

Ever wonder why that is? They can't. They never will, because the Shi'a and Sunni will never stop bickering and fighting.

Thus, it's just a constant cycle of infighting. One faction will take over a country for a while in uneasy stability, then the other one moves, there's a lot of blowing up and shooting, the other faction takes over...and the country looks like a toilet. That's what's occured in the West Bank as well. Hamas and Fatah are so busy accusing each other of things and blowing each other up that they can't even make it to the negotiating table like adults. They're their own worst enemy. And they both blame Israel for their own inability to function as a society.

From one of John Stewart's books...middle eastern humor. Sadly true, as well.

Mideast Arab 1: Knock Knock!
Mideast Arab 2: No, it is you who are wrong.

[Nitrogen]

Nitrogen,

So what do you propose should be done with the 50 percent of the population in Israel today that wants to have its own government and culture?  You're right that they don't want Israel, but they would call that renaming their country, not "destroying someone else's country."

They "want" Israel because Israel took a bit of hardscrabble desert and made a working 21st century civilization with power, clean water, modern airports, and buses that run on time. Of course they covet that. Due to their dysfunctional, backstabbing culture, their areas look more like post-civilization pestholes full of bullet-pocked, half-ruined buildings. And if they were "given" Israel, all the stuff they covet would, under their rule, first stop working, and then be blown up and shot to pieces.

And they don't see that.

Maned pretty much covered what I was going to say.

The big thing to realize is that it's not about a Palestinian state (though I'm not against the idea, I just realize it won't fix anything.)
It's about pushing Israel into the sea.  History shows over and over again that that's the endgame.  1947, 1963 err, 1968, 2000.

Oh and as far as arabs in Israel not having any rights; they have the right to vote.   The Israeli courts have said time and time again that Arabs can live wherever they choose; and are not partitioned off into specific areas.

Now sure, there are a few distinctions.  Arabs are not drafted like Israeli citizens.  That's so they don't have to kill other arabs; but plenty of Arabs still serve.  Many gaps between the two cultures comes from this; as many socitial benifits are only available to veterans. 
During deployments, Arabs in Israel 99% of the time were loyal citizens, and not "sleepers" that were biding their time to blow stuff up.  Many stepped up and helped their community out when deployments hurt their community.

Did you also know that Arabic is an official language in Israel, and there are state schools that teach children in Arabic there?

Israeli law bans employment discrimination based on religion.

So I guess Arabs in Israel have no rights.

SiS, have you ever even BEEN to Israel?