Author Topic: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?  (Read 3343 times)

Perd Hapley

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.Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« on: July 10, 2015, 08:33:29 PM »
I heard on the internet that some .gov groups are choosing to stay with Win XP, because they think it is more secure than the newer versions. Does this sound plausible?
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2015, 09:11:23 PM »
I heard on the internet that some .gov groups are choosing to stay with Win XP, because they think it is more secure than the newer versions. Does this sound plausible?

No.

XP is no longer or will soon no longer have security patches.

I would have been fine sticking with WinXP64 if it still had security support.  I despise Win7, especially Win7 Enterprise.  Win7Pro can be lived with.
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2015, 09:17:22 PM »
No.

XP is no longer or will soon no longer have security patches.

Actually, we're paying $10M or so to keep the patches coming for a few more years.

Specifically because we have a number of systems that use XP and can't be transitioned higher(yet). 

Can't be more specific than 'the systems in question control certain hardware devices'.

MechAg94

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2015, 09:35:15 PM »
We still have control computers that still use Windows 2000.  The software used to talk to the DCS can't run on newer systems.  Working on paying some money to upgrade everything.
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Ben

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2015, 09:58:09 PM »
Actually, we're paying $10M or so to keep the patches coming for a few more years.

Specifically because we have a number of systems that use XP and can't be transitioned higher(yet). 

Can't be more specific than 'the systems in question control certain hardware devices'.

We had the same thing going on just before I left for the "certain devices". XP had to go for all standard workstations though, and we were heavily pushing the contractors for transition on the other stuff (or more precisely, the Army was doing it for us since they had a bigger investment and wanted to get stuff to 7).

It's certainly not more secure anymore (to answer fistful's question), but all the stuff I was aware of that it was still running on didn't touch the Interwebz.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2015, 11:41:31 PM »
I thought security was a bit of a problem for XP, compared to the newer versions.


Actually, we're paying $10M or so to keep the patches coming for a few more years.

So the .gov has a special deal with Microsoft for extended support?
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Fitz

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2015, 11:59:13 PM »
I thought security was a bit of a problem for XP, compared to the newer versions.


So the .gov has a special deal with Microsoft for extended support?

on embedded systems, yes. it's actually quite common in the industry to negotiate update contracts for EOL software when its on an embedded system
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 12:42:35 AM »
I heard on the internet that some .gov groups are choosing to stay with Win XP, because they think it is more secure than the newer versions. Does this sound plausible?

Nope. I work in a satellite office on my state's network. Half the computers in my office are on XP and the IT people are apoplectic about it.
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 12:46:07 AM »
I heard on the internet that some .gov groups are choosing to stay with Win XP, because they think it is more secure than the newer versions. Does this sound plausible?

Not at all because it's more secure. It's a question of the effort of updating the rest of some specialized systems to work with newer stuff.

No truth at all to it being more secure.
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2015, 10:14:20 AM »
So does OPM use XP  ???

 ;)
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2015, 04:42:21 PM »
They probably use PC-DOS 3.10
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lee n. field

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2015, 06:51:31 PM »
I heard on the internet that some .gov groups are choosing to stay with Win XP, because they think it is more secure than the newer versions. Does this sound plausible?

I'll say this carefully: it sounds plausible that some .gov depts think XP is more secure than subsequent versions, and are sticking with it.    (That someone may think that, does not make it so.)

Quote
Win7Pro can be lived with.

7 can be lived with.  Most of my laptops around here (my main computer, and spares I maintain), have a 7 pro partition.  There's some stuff I do that it's easier to boot 7 for, then wrestle with Linux over.

Quote
Actually, we're paying $10M or so to keep the patches coming for a few more years.

Specifically because we have a number of systems that use XP and can't be transitioned higher(yet).

Can't be more specific than 'the systems in question control certain hardware devices'.

If I had to guess, and no need to reply, computer controlled medical equipment.  One hopes they don't just throw a new OS on there without exhaustive testing.  (I should quiz the tech come Monday, at my next "power tan" session.  5 more weeks.  <groan!>)

Quote
We still have control computers that still use Windows 2000.  The software used to talk to the DCS can't run on newer systems.  Working on paying some money to upgrade everything.

There's a company that rents rack space from the ISP side of my employeer, and has a box that monitors traffic.  For what?  No one knows.  That box runs Win 2000 server.

Quote
So the .gov has a special deal with Microsoft for extended support?

it's always been the case that MS is open to deals like that.  .Gov has (at least the appearance of) endlessly deep pockets, and could probably keep paying MS to support it for .gov's own use, in perpetuity.

Quote
Nope. I work in a satellite office on my state's network. Half the computers in my office are on XP and the IT people are apoplectic about it.

If its like what I've seen of IL gov, their IT is a muddled mess.  That some are still running an OS that was supersceeded 8 years ago, does not surprise me.

(Ex:.Ill State Police lookup system is a web based thing.  Made for Interwebz Explorer 5.  And never upgraded.)

Quote
And the banks.

Bank  IT auditors I've dealt with are pretty insistent that software in use be supported.  I had to upgrade a Win7 laptop to Win8.1 a couple months ago, ahead of the audit, because Truecrypt was abandoned.)



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HankB

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2015, 07:01:37 PM »
Actually, we're paying $10M or so to keep the patches coming for a few more years.

Specifically because we have a number of systems that use XP and can't be transitioned higher(yet). 

Can't be more specific than 'the systems in question control certain hardware devices'.
I have an old PC that is still used for some stuff around my house - too bad MS is keeping the XP patches "under wraps" since public updates stopped a while back.
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2015, 09:08:09 PM »
(Ex:.Ill State Police lookup system is a web based thing.  Made for Interwebz Explorer 5.  And never upgraded.)

And that right there is the evil of the Internet age. A software program is a tool, designed to accomplish a task. In the case of a specific, purpose-based program, once you get it up and running so it does what you want it to do and everyone knows how to use it ... why SHOULD it be "upgraded"? I have the carpenter's hammer that my father had when I was born. It was made to drive nails, and it drives nails just as well today as it did 71 years ago. I know how to use it ... what's to be "upgraded"?

With commercial software, of course, the publishers need to make changes so they can sell new versions. MS Office is a good example. Microsoft wants us to believe that the new "ribbon" interface introduced with the 2007 version is an improvement -- an "upgrade" -- compared to the previous interface that ended with Office 2003. It's not. Get one layer beyond the ribbon, and the menus are the same as they were in Office 2003. So the new interface is really an admission by Microsoft that they ran out of ideas. They couldn't think of any new functionality to add, they couldn't find any way to make it do the things it did better -- so they screwed with the top tier of the user interface and called it an "upgrade."

But why would a purpose-built state police lookup program need to be "upgraded"? Oh, yeah -- so it'll run on the new IE. Well, why should the state police have to revise their software because Microsoft came out with some new versions of IE? Why isn't IE baclwards-compatible so a program written to run under IE5 will run under IE10?
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makattak

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Re: Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2015, 01:40:56 AM »
And that right there is the evil of the Internet age. A software program is a tool, designed to accomplish a task. In the case of a specific, purpose-based program, once you get it up and running so it does what you want it to do and everyone knows how to use it ... why SHOULD it be "upgraded"? I have the carpenter's hammer that my father had when I was born. It was made to drive nails, and it drives nails just as well today as it did 71 years ago. I know how to use it ... what's to be "upgraded"?

With commercial software, of course, the publishers need to make changes so they can sell new versions. MS Office is a good example. Microsoft wants us to believe that the new "ribbon" interface introduced with the 2007 version is an improvement -- an "upgrade" -- compared to the previous interface that ended with Office 2003. It's not. Get one layer beyond the ribbon, and the menus are the same as they were in Office 2003. So the new interface is really an admission by Microsoft that they ran out of ideas. They couldn't think of any new functionality to add, they couldn't find any way to make it do the things it did better -- so they screwed with the top tier of the user interface and called it an "upgrade."

But why would a purpose-built state police lookup program need to be "upgraded"? Oh, yeah -- so it'll run on the new IE. Well, why should the state police have to revise their software because Microsoft came out with some new versions of IE? Why isn't IE baclwards-compatible so a program written to run under IE5 will run under IE10?
Security. As hackers find ways into the existing program, developers must update to fix those issues.

It's like you've bought a lock that must be continually upgraded because the longer it is 'in the wild' the more time crooks can learn to pick it.

More computer savvy, please correct me where I am wrong here.
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Firethorn

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2015, 06:00:40 AM »
It's certainly not more secure anymore (to answer fistful's question), but all the stuff I was aware of that it was still running on didn't touch the Interwebz.

Not directly at least, but we've encountered malicious logic where it's not supposed to be before. 

Not at all because it's more secure. It's a question of the effort of updating the rest of some specialized systems to work with newer stuff.

No truth at all to it being more secure.

The perception is NOT that it's more secure, indeed.  The problem is that we have custom software controlling custom equipment, and oddly enough, insufficient money to keep the software updated for the new operating systems.

Consider that the software controls for the F-22 and F-35 have each taken LONGER than microsoft's average operating system lifespans.  The planes themselves are not running windows, but ancillary equipment is(and I'm being cautious about naming them).  Personally, I recommended using Linux, but hey, I was just a peon.

And that right there is the evil of the Internet age. A software program is a tool, designed to accomplish a task. In the case of a specific, purpose-based program, once you get it up and running so it does what you want it to do and everyone knows how to use it ... why SHOULD it be "upgraded"? I have the carpenter's hammer that my father had when I was born. It was made to drive nails, and it drives nails just as well today as it did 71 years ago. I know how to use it ... what's to be "upgraded"?

As Hawkmoon said.  Security.  You have a safe from 71 years ago.  Will it's systems hold up as well as newer ones up against a safe cracker?  Probably not.

The other problem you run into with software is that your needs change.  Your father's hammer works fine, sure, but what about when all your competitors have upgraded to pneumatic hammers that let them drive nails faster and with less effort, meaning they can underbid you? 

What do you do when you go from needing to maintain 1 house, to 10, to 100?  Consider that the population is far higher and far more people have driver's licenses than 100 years ago.  Needs change.

Quote
But why would a purpose-built state police lookup program need to be "upgraded"? Oh, yeah -- so it'll run on the new IE. Well, why should the state police have to revise their software because Microsoft came out with some new versions of IE? Why isn't IE baclwards-compatible so a program written to run under IE5 will run under IE10?

They 'tried', but the problem is that IE5 wasn't 'standards compliant'.  So stuff written to work with it weren't written to be compliant with standards.  Think of it like working on a piece of equipment that was built in Africa or something that, for some unknown reason, isn't built using either metric or imperial measurements. 

IE5 is no longer supported.  That means any vulnerabilities found within aren't fixed anymore.  The memory leaks, that you could barely put up with back in the day, are still there.  The chips it was designed for is no longer there.

It's a bit like trying to support an antique car - the parts availability just isn't there anymore.  Everything gets much more expensive.

Fitz

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2015, 12:52:32 AM »
I have an old PC that is still used for some stuff around my house - too bad MS is keeping the XP patches "under wraps" since public updates stopped a while back.

The patches for embedded XP that are still being produced are , quite literally, for a different operating system than the XP you have on your old PC

Think WIndows 8 vs Windows 8 RT. Different OS, despite the same look/feel
Fitz

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lee n. field

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2015, 08:55:51 AM »
I think he's referring to XP updates produced for folks that are paying MS for support.  (I like free stuff too, but that's just not MS' deal here.)
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2015, 10:50:31 AM »
Heck, as far as I know, several navies (US and GB to start) are still running Windows for Warships which is a variant of Windows 2000.

Fitz

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2015, 11:29:29 AM »
I think he's referring to XP updates produced for folks that are paying MS for support.  (I like free stuff too, but that's just not MS' deal here.)

As far as I'm aware, the only version of XP that is in a "pay to keep updates flowing" state is the embedded version. I've seen no evidence of anything else.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2015, 11:29:55 AM »
Heck, as far as I know, several navies (US and GB to start) are still running Windows for Warships which is a variant of Windows 2000.

LOL! BEST NAME EVER
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Ben

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2015, 11:33:34 AM »
LOL! BEST NAME EVER

I hope they gave a nice bonus to whoever thought of it. :)
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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2015, 02:22:14 PM »
Heck, as far as I know, several navies (US and GB to start) are still running Windows for Warships which is a variant of Windows 2000.

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Re: .Gov orgs choosing to stick with Win XP?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 03:13:22 PM »
"Skipper, have you tried turning the power off and back on again?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi_2020LJQo
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