Author Topic: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves  (Read 9594 times)

Waitone

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So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« on: February 22, 2013, 10:12:57 AM »
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/02/shock-report-veterans-receive-letters-from-va-prohibiting-ownership-or-purchase-of-firearms/

Appears on Friday.  Outrageous on its face when we see it, but we knew it was going to happen. 

I figger the alternative media will be aflame by Tuesday next (assuming the story is corroborated).
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dogmush

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2013, 10:45:06 AM »
I'd be supremely intersted in reading that letter in it's entirety.


brimic

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 10:48:03 AM »
Well, returning Veterans are terrorists according to the DOJ.
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41magsnub

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 10:53:18 AM »
I'd be supremely intersted in reading that letter in it's entirety.



Here is the entire letter.  http://redflagnews.com/headlines/disarming-americas-heros-veterans-receiving-official-letters-prohibiting-them-from-purchasing-possessing-receiving-or-transporting-a-firearm-or-ammunition

I would love to hear the context around the person who received this letter.

MillCreek

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 11:00:55 AM »
The letter is available at the Red Flag site via the first link.

If the Government follows the same policy for people receiving Social Security or other recipients of Federal benefits, and there is the option of an administrative or judicial hearing to contest the findings with the patient represented by an advocate, then I am not unduly alarmed by this.  I do see that the primary point of the letter is to determine if someone is incompetent to handle their financial affairs.  I do think it is interesting that the agency makes the determination of incompetency, and again, I would be curious to see if this is consistent with the approach used by other agencies.  I would also want to know what are the clinical grounds for assuming that the recipient is financially incompetent.  Is it someone who has sustained a profound traumatic brain injury, or what?  Finally, I would have to read the Brady Law to see if the finding of incompetency as a firearms disability applies to an administrative finding by a government agency versus a judicial finding.

The notion that veterans should get a pass on this just for being veterans is not valid, in my book.  If this is the law, it should be applied equally across all recipients of Federal benefits, with the codicils mentioned above.  I bet this will discourage veterans from seeking treatment at VA facilities, though.  
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dogmush

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 11:36:19 AM »
After reading the whole thing, there is a laid out process for contesting this finding, and for requesting a hearing. It's in the letter.  And this isn't out of the blue.  This person's doctor felt like he couldn't handle financial responsibility and started a laid out process to help the person.

Now the doctor could very well be full of it, but he at least had to present evidence, and the person is given a chance to refute said evidence.  I agree with Millcreek that just because the person is a vet, and the VA is handling this doesn't mean he gets a pass.  Plenty of vets in this country are messed up enough that this process would be a good idea.

That said, as someone who deals with the VA (And the Army's programs to help soldiers still in the service) I always counsel my troops to be frugal with the information they share, and keep in mind that telling an Army (or VA) doc is the same thing as telling the Army.  If you need help, get it. But be cautious.  Things have a way of sticking around longer then anticipated.

HankB

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 11:41:58 AM »
If a person is ruled mentally incompentent to handle his own affairs, manage his own finances, or possess firearms . . . how can he still be considered mentally competent enough to stand trial for violating some related  government edict?

I know that if I were a juror, I'd consider an earlier government finding of mental incompetence a powerful and compelling argument for some variation of an insanity defense.
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Balog

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 11:43:10 AM »
Vets are costing the fed.gov a lot of money, inconsiderate jerks trying to get help for their injuries and all. I sometimes wonder if the VA is deliberately trying to keep people from using the services they have a contractual right to as a cost saving measure? I know I'll never set foot inside a VA hospital again.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 11:43:21 AM »

That said, as someone who deals with the VA (And the Army's programs to help soldiers still in the service) I always counsel my troops to be frugal with the information they share, and keep in mind that telling an Army (or VA) doc is the same thing as telling the Army.  If you need help, get it. But be cautious.  Things have a way of sticking around longer then anticipated.

^^ This, in spades.

The Free *expletive deleted*it Army has many faces.

Nothing is free.  You want privacy, then pay for your own shrink or see your clergy of choice.

Keep your medicine out of the government's hands, and they'll keep their nose out of your gunsafe.  Hopefully.

(I routinely change my PCP doctor and do not give my new doctor my prior medical history, partly because I have a very boring medical history and partly because I don't believe in centralized medical records systems for patients at all.  I will share with my doc what I feel is relevant to my treatment at this time, and he can keep his treatment tailored to that situation.  This degree of autonomy is not possible with Army docs or with the VA, but the volunteering of information certainly is.  See non-gov docs for sensitive things.  See gov docs for everything else.)
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brimic

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 12:11:30 PM »
Quote
That said, as someone who deals with the VA (And the Army's programs to help soldiers still in the service) I always counsel my troops to be frugal with the information they share, and keep in mind that telling an Army (or VA) doc is the same thing as telling the Army.  If you need help, get it. But be cautious.  Things have a way of sticking around longer then anticipated.

Fear not. When obamacare comes into full swing, everyone will get the same treatment that soldiers get from the VA, if not worse. Its an absolute certainty that doctors will be treating 'political' diseases as much as mental and physical diseases.
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dogmush

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 12:23:55 PM »
Fear not. When obamacare comes into full swing, everyone will get the same treatment that soldiers get from the VA, if not worse. Its an absolute certainty that doctors will be treating 'political' diseases as much as mental and physical diseases.

Possibly.  Then I fear our standard of care will plummet. 

Doc: What's wrong?
Me: got a cold.
Doc: Anything else bothering you?
Me: Nope! Everything is fine.  Feel great!
Doc: Why were you limping on the way in?
Me:..............Not Limping. I'm fine.  You need to get your eyes checked out.


There needs to be some trust between a person and their doctor.  Which is why the only VA benefit I've used is a mortgage.  But DO trust my civilian doc.  Otherwise, why would I let him work on me?

Tallpine

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 12:29:02 PM »
I already don't trust doctors.   =(

I refuse to see a doctor unless I have severe injuries.
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Regolith

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 01:45:24 PM »
If a person is ruled mentally incompentent to handle his own affairs, manage his own finances, or possess firearms . . . how can he still be considered mentally competent enough to stand trial for violating some related  government edict?

I know that if I were a juror, I'd consider an earlier government finding of mental incompetence a powerful and compelling argument for some variation of an insanity defense.

That's the exact same question I had.
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RevDisk

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 02:29:31 PM »
The letter is available at the Red Flag site via the first link.

If the Government follows the same policy for people receiving Social Security or other recipients of Federal benefits, and there is the option of an administrative or judicial hearing to contest the findings with the patient represented by an advocate, then I am not unduly alarmed by this.  I do see that the primary point of the letter is to determine if someone is incompetent to handle their financial affairs.  I do think it is interesting that the agency makes the determination of incompetency, and again, I would be curious to see if this is consistent with the approach used by other agencies.  I would also want to know what are the clinical grounds for assuming that the recipient is financially incompetent.  Is it someone who has sustained a profound traumatic brain injury, or what?  Finally, I would have to read the Brady Law to see if the finding of incompetency as a firearms disability applies to an administrative finding by a government agency versus a judicial finding.

The notion that veterans should get a pass on this just for being veterans is not valid, in my book.  If this is the law, it should be applied equally across all recipients of Federal benefits, with the codicils mentioned above.  I bet this will discourage veterans from seeking treatment at VA facilities, though.  

Not saying I disagree, per se. Except the VA like any other government program has plenty of incompetent bureaucrats and processes. This is an opt-out provision. Suppose the letter is lost in the mail. Suppose the VA mails it to Taiwan. Suppose the VA's database says the letter went out when it never did. The person will be stripped of their legal rights without due process. "Prove your competence within sixty days, else you're magically a felon if you own firearms" is a bit harsh and I'd be curious to see a SCOTUS ruling on it.

I would state that it should be opt in or have judicial oversight PRIOR to making folks felons by administrative decree.

Most of my LE and medical buddies tell me they can't declare folks crazy. If someone is crazy or automatically if they say the magic words (self-harm), they go to the loonie bin for a determination. Which then goes to a judge for the stamp. And that stamp is not permanent. Judge has to restamp every so often. This is required for habeas corpus and all that. You can't use loonie bins as prisons to bypass the judiciary, like the Soviet Union regularly did.
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Tallpine

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 03:42:43 PM »
Quote
You can't use loonie bins as prisons to bypass the judiciary, like the Soviet Union regularly did.

They can as long as they have more and bigger guns.  =(



I fail to see how any letter has any legal force whatsoever unless sent by registered mail with return receipt, or delivered by means of process service.  I never got it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 03:48:26 PM »
They can as long as they have more and bigger guns.  =(



I fail to see how any letter has any legal force whatsoever unless sent by registered mail with return receipt, or delivered by means of process service, FROM A JUDGE ACTING IN OFFICIAL CAPACITY AFTER HEARING PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE REMARKS.  I never got it.

Mail is junk by default.  I don't even open it unless I have a reason to want to hear from you.  There's no compulsory reason for me to even open the stupid piece of paper you littered my mailbox with.
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Scout26

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 04:01:22 PM »
They are following the law.  The recipient has the right to request a hearing, have legal counsel and present evidence, witnesses and testimony in his behalf.*

But yes, it would be interesting and helpful to know more about the individual and situation in question.  



*-IIRC, Under 2007 NICS Improvement Act, the .gov has to pay for the lawyer and other expenses of the person in question if they are found competent.
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MillCreek

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »
I would say that working in healthcare, I frequently encounter people who are not competent to one degree or another.  The lucky ones have family members that will take over and look after the patient's interests.  The less lucky ones are able to find a government or social-service agency that will act as the fiduciary.  Say what you like about the government and social service agencies, but most of them are honest and ethical in this role.  The unlucky ones have people who prey on them or scam them financially.  When we encounter the unlucky ones, we try to protect them by getting the police or adult protective services involved.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

RevDisk

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 05:00:28 PM »
I would say that working in healthcare, I frequently encounter people who are not competent to one degree or another.  The lucky ones have family members that will take over and look after the patient's interests.  The less lucky ones are able to find a government or social-service agency that will act as the fiduciary.  Say what you like about the government and social service agencies, but most of them are honest and ethical in this role.  The unlucky ones have people who prey on them or scam them financially.  When we encounter the unlucky ones, we try to protect them by getting the police or adult protective services involved.

Some libertarians may disagree with me, but I concur that this is a legitimate function of government. If someone is mentally incompetent, and there is no other party... What's the alternative?

I imagine there is oversight and auditing. The potential for abuse is very easy, and the consequences can be horrific.
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Tallpine

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2013, 05:05:32 PM »
I would say that working in healthcare, I frequently encounter people who are not competent to one degree or another.  ...

Hell, I work in aerospace software, and I have a manager who is incompetent  :facepalm:
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 07:25:28 PM »
i would like those who need it cared for  financially or otherwise.  the tricky part here for me is how did doc reach his determination and how it might relate to hippa. i also am concerned it will cause folks to avoid treatment. i've seen some of that  buried it.  its a very fine line at the top of a very steep slippery slope. this letter doesn't make me go zomg but theres not too much further before it gets tricky
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Fitz

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2013, 08:19:29 PM »
People wonder why I dropped out of my PTSD treatment

It almost kept me from being able o become a drill sergeant

"Won't hurt your career"

My ass


I'm just about *expletive deleted*ing done with the military
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Frank Castle

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 09:26:48 PM »
I've deployed 3 times.

When i get back ..........SGT are you okay , do feel anger , do you what to hurt your self or someone .

I could pissed off ,at the world ,drinking gasoline and pissing vinegar.



NO SIR , I FEEL FINE.!!!    


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« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 09:32:23 PM by AZtoy »

SADShooter

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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2013, 09:37:50 PM »
Some libertarians may disagree with me, but I concur that this is a legitimate function of government. If someone is mentally incompetent, and there is no other party... What's the alternative?

I imagine there is oversight and auditing. The potential for abuse is very easy, and the consequences can be horrific.

I do not have a philosophical problem with systems, possibly government but preferably private, with the mission to help those who cannot help themselves. It's hard to think of a better illustration but mental illness. Our main problem currently is systems which "help" people who do not need help, or where the determination of need is subjective, and often made by those with ulterior motives.
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Re: So Now the VA Wants to Deny Vets the Right to Arm Themselves
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2013, 08:52:02 AM »
Some libertarians may disagree with me, but I concur that this is a legitimate function of government. If someone is mentally incompetent, and there is no other party... What's the alternative?

I imagine there is oversight and auditing. The potential for abuse is very easy, and the consequences can be horrific.

.gov declaring people mentally incompetent is a slippery slope.  And .gov "oversight" is like the coyotes keeping the foxes out of the henhouse.
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