Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...

[Perd Hapley]

No, I'm claiming that in the US Christians are more likely than other groups to have succeeded in religious based intrusive government.

Fair enough, but I wonder whether you realize that religiously-inspired intrusive laws are no better or worse than intrusive laws not inspired by religious motives.

[dogmush]

Fair enough, but I wonder whether you realize that religiously-inspired intrusive laws are no better or worse than intrusive laws not inspired by religious motives.

Oh I do.  See earlier CS lewis quote and Progressivism.

I was responding only in the limited context of "Baptists don't oppress" with a "yeah they do" and some anecdotes of such.  Don't extrapolate that out to "They are the mostest evils in the world!".

You guys barely break the top 50 these days.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The Catholics are off the hook on teetotaling. Especially the Irish ones


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[Tallpine]

Are there pagan hymnals?

Pagan parsonages?

Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?

How about pagan Sunday school?

Vacation pagan school in the summer?

I think you could easily find some sort of "pagan" version of all of those 

...
It's funny that I actually side with the pastors in this thread, they should tell the .gov to FOAD, when those very same mega-church pastors are the ones most likely to influance city hall into the laws I'm complaining about. 

Not really - liberty is liberty no matter who or whom 

[griz]

However, due in large part to the "anti-god influence of media" several Baptist churches got together and got the small town in North FL my cousin lives in to strengthen their public decency laws.  "Too many of those dang Goths" were coming over from JAX. (No seriously, that's what her pastor said).  As a result I've seen my cousin's 14YO daughter stopped by police on the sidewalk outside her school to measure the length of her volleyball shorts.  Churches drafted the law, churches pushed it before the city council, church members voted it in, and church members with guns enforce it regardless of your religious affiliation.  Seems I've heard of another major religion that makes laws if their women show to much skin........hmmmm.

What city is that?  I know some places try to be more "decent" than others, but other than school dress codes, I've never heard of getting to the point of measuring shorts.

[RoadKingLarry]

The Catholics are off the hook on teetotaling. Especially the Irish ones


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Do you know what the difference is between a Catholic friend and a southern Baptist friend?

The Catholic will know you when they run into you at the liquor store.


I'm very much a "live and let live" kind of atheist.  In this case I strongly support the preachers telling the city to pound sand. It would be hard for me to envision much more of a blatant attack on the first amendment.

[roo_ster]

I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not.  Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home.  My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion.  It is common at the local level.  It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.

You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.

I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good.  Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list.  I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.


Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.

I ended reading this in my head with the voice of John Cleese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

What have they ever done for US?
1. Logic.
2. Empiricism and modern science.
3. Universal view of human worth.
4. Philosophical underpinnings that helped to end chattel slavery on 90% of the earth.
5. The very idea of the hospital.
6. Etc, etc, etc.

Simply put, were it not for folk like those you despise, we would all still be slaves of some despot and peeing in the same stream we get our drinking water from instead of grousing about how free folk exercise their franchise at the polls.

FTR: Long live Federalism and the 10th Amendment, so I can pack up and move if ever my neighbors get intolerably up in my business.

[MechAg94]

The soft tyranny comment reminded me of the CS Lewis quote

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - CS Lewis

I'm sorry, but to me I would say that the progressives fit the above description of moral busybodies much better than modern cultural Christianity.  

I saw this quote and started to reply before I saw the last sentence.  I do agree that "moral busybodies" often decribes liberal leftists whether they are Christian or not. 

[Scout26]

The difference I find is that the Christian Moral Busybodies will wave their index finger at you and give you a disapproving look.  The Progressive Moral Busybodies will pass a law to make it illegal.

[Balog]

I think some folks need to recalibrate their meter that distinguishes between "oppressed" and "slightly inconvenienced."

[TommyGunn]

So a judge ordering a pastor to perform a gay marriage he finds morally, religiously and spirituously repugnant is a "slight inconvenience?"
If the reich was stuffing pastors in gas ovens would that count as oppression?

When we have a government trying to force companies run by believers to provide abortofacients via their healthcare program, or where judges are "ordering" religious actions against the belief of the church, then however you cut it, we have a government that's grown too big and intrusive and badly needs pruning.


Atleast kudzo isn't an endangered specie.

[Balog]

So a judge ordering a pastor to perform a gay marriage he finds morally, religiously and spirituously repugnant is a "slight inconvenience?"
If the reich was stuffing pastors in gas ovens would that count as oppression?

When we have a government trying to force companies run by believers to provide abortofacients via their healthcare program, or where judges are "ordering" religious actions against the belief of the church, then however you cut it, we have a government that's grown too big and intrusive and badly needs pruning.


Atleast kudzo isn't an endangered specie.

You're in the wrong thread. This is the one where Southern Baptists are oppressing the population by making them wait until 1201pm to buy liquor on Sunday.

FTR I am not a baptist of any sort and I live in one of if not the most hostile to religion places in America, so maybe the Sharia Baptists really are a problem in America's Penis Florida.

[Strings]

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/10/no-guys-its-not-first-amendment.html

Just the thought of someone who is (I believe) slightly respected here

Personally, I prefer the government stay out of religious issues. But I agree with what Peter has written about public businesses (to a point: I also respect a business owner's right to be an ass)

[Perd Hapley]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that so many believe in the Imaginary Law of the Universe, that opening one's business to the public divests one of control over said business. 

[Balog]

I think it's funny that one loses the religious part of the first amendment if you start a business or get a job, but not the free speech part. Odd how that works.

[zxcvbob]

Somehow the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part got thrown out.

[makattak]

Somehow the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part got thrown out.

What!? You are completely free to exercise it.

For an hour each week. Behind the doors of your chosen sanctuary. On whatever one day of the week you choose.  

(Unless you are muslim, of course.)

[Strings]

You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business

*shrug*

So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Yea


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[makattak]

You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business

*shrug*

So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?

Yes. Or a pagan baker. Or photographer. Or Hobby store owner.  Or....

[Balog]

You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business

*shrug*

So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?

1. Yes
2. Is selling gas a religious endeavor or in any way an endorsement of activity one is morally opposed to? Given that none of these case involve refusal to serve based on sexuality, merely refusal to participate in a specific religious ceremony which they object to.

[Perd Hapley]

You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business

*shrug*

So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?

Morally, no. Legally, yes. I'd be morally opposed to the way they run their business, just like I'd be morally opposed to a whites-only gas station. But I wouldn't force either of them to change.

[MechAg94]

If a business wishing to turn away paying customers, they should be able to do so.  As long as they do not seek to prevent competitors from taking that business or starting up to compete with them.  Free and open markets is the goal.  "Free" applies in a number of ways.