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Author Topic: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court  (Read 23680 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2010, 10:29:18 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 15, 2010, 10:21:21 AM
No, I mean they were not very successful in their aim of driving the companies out of business.

Fortunately, with the legislation protecting them, we'll never know. They weren't able to keep at it long enough.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2010, 12:37:24 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 15, 2010, 10:21:21 AM
No, I mean they were not very successful in their aim of driving the companies out of business.
No thanks to the NRA's lawsuit protection legislation, no sirree...
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2010, 04:23:04 PM »
Bet some would have howled if Gura had stepped in and tried to derail or take over the NRAs lawsuit legislation.   


And how does the Lawsuit Legislation advance my rkba?  And using cigarettes is a lazy excuse last I checked they were still for sale.  Now getting a SC to hear a 2A case and actually rule that the 2A is an individual right, that was an advancement of rkba. 
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

makattak

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2010, 05:11:11 PM »
Quote from: Dust Monkey on February 15, 2010, 04:23:04 PM
Bet some would have howled if Gura had stepped in and tried to derail or take over the NRAs lawsuit legislation.   


And how does the Lawsuit Legislation advance my rkba?  And using cigarettes is a lazy excuse last I checked they were still for sale.  Now getting a SC to hear a 2A case and actually rule that the 2A is an individual right, that was an advancement of rkba. 

Wow, the Brady Bunch posters have gotten more cagey. Bravo.
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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2010, 05:34:03 PM »
Wow. If you think I'm part of the Brady Bunch, ignorance or stupidity is your best friend. But please continue to ignore the thread. It seems to escape you that Heller had a RIGHT to bring a suit and he had the expectation of that suit not being molested by outside groups. Same as this current suit. Gura's client has the same rights and expectations. Just because you doing like it or claim it's messing with your rights doesn't mean squat. That's the rub with individual rights. Now the way you and some are argueing "Its playing with my right" that sounds to me that you all would be more comfortable with the Collective Rights model of the Brady Bunch. 
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

MicroBalrog

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2010, 07:16:39 PM »
Guys, you realize the GOA did not endorse the anti-lawsuit laws, right? Are you actually implying the GOA is anti-gun?
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2010, 07:35:35 PM »
MB.

The gun lawsuit legislation is a major thread drift. It's a good law, but has nothing to do with the OP

I don't see the GOA or SAS trying to get some of Gura's time in front of the SC. Nor did they try to detail Heller. They did file Amicus briefs. And if the NRA would have stopped at that in Heller and the current case, we wouldn't be talking about this.
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

makattak

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2010, 10:01:35 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 15, 2010, 07:16:39 PM
Guys, you realize the GOA did not endorse the anti-lawsuit laws, right? Are you actually implying the GOA is anti-gun?

OF COURSE the GOA is anti-gun.

It's obvious- their "no compromises" policy effectively ENSURES that no progress will be made on gun rights, meaning that they can keep sucking money out of their patsy members.
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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Silver Bullet

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2010, 11:02:39 PM »
For anyone doubting the NRA’s power on our behalf:

http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/siliconvalley/1805Results.html

The socialists had attached a renewal of the AWB to the first version of the bill to prohibit lawsuits against the firearms industry.  The NRA then led the charge to kill the bill, with the plan that the lawsuit bill would come up at a later time without the AWB renewal.

Note in particular this quote from Feinstein (speaking of the NRA):

Quote:
"I'm a bit numb ... They had the power to turn around at least 60 votes in the Senate. That's amazing to me."
- Senator Feinstein as quoted in the NY Times 3/3/04

Since then, of course, the gun-liability bill was passed without the AWB renewal provision.

Can your beer do this ?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2010, 11:14:34 PM »
Quote from: makattak on February 15, 2010, 10:01:35 PM
OF COURSE the GOA is anti-gun.

It's obvious- their "no compromises" policy effectively ENSURES that no progress will be made on gun rights, meaning that they can keep sucking money out of their patsy members.

The GOA endorsed several pro-gun bills throughout the last few years. None of them were no-compromise-repeal-everything bills.
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2010, 12:21:34 AM »
It's not about if the NRA can or cannot shape legslation. We all know the power of the NRA. It is about the NRA pissing in someone elses party without being invited.

They stuck their noses in on Heller.  Attempted to derail the case or shut it down all together. Heller went our way, with no thanks to the NRA. Now they are doing it again. Party crashing.

I'm sure Gura would welcome their help now, and probably on Heller if they would have conducted themselves in a professional manner, instead of back biting.
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

AJ Dual

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2010, 12:33:47 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 15, 2010, 11:14:34 PM
The GOA endorsed several pro-gun bills throughout the last few years. None of them were no-compromise-repeal-everything bills.

LOL... I can "endorse" a bill too. Want to see me do it?  :lol:

GOA is all talk and collects dues to let their membership hear them talk. It's the NRA that's pounding the halls at the Capitol. And it's the NRA the Capitol fears.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2010, 12:35:20 AM »
Quote from: AJ Dual on February 16, 2010, 12:33:47 AM
LOL... I can "endorse" a bill too. Want to see me do it?  :lol:


I was specifically refuting the claim they only support no-compromise, no-prisoners bills.

Quote
GOA is all talk and collects dues to let their membership hear them talk. It's the NRA that's pounding the halls at the Capitol. And it's the NRA the Capitol fears.

Nobody is disputing the NRA's power.
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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2010, 12:45:38 AM »
Sure the NRA has the power to shape legislation or stop it. Hell, I sure wish they would use their power to force some Pro 2A Bills.
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Silver Bullet

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2010, 11:22:34 AM »
Quote
The gun lawsuit legislation is a major thread drift. It's a good law, but has nothing to do with the OP

But aren't you the one who initiated the thread drift with this comment in your first post to this thread:

Quote
Other than the shooter safety courses and such, I don't see much benefit that the NRA gives gun owners. Except, like elected critters, wanting my money every election cycle. And wanting more of my money for court cases, that they weren't invited.

 :police:
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makattak

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2010, 11:35:28 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 15, 2010, 11:14:34 PM
The GOA endorsed several pro-gun bills throughout the last few years. None of them were no-compromise-repeal-everything bills.

Really? I can't name a single one.

And no, I can't be expected to research and back up my claims, I know they're just a bunch of do-nothing money-grubbers who want to suppress my right to keep and bear arms in order to make a buck.

Greedy bunch of hypocrites.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 11:44:35 AM by makattak »
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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Scout26

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2010, 03:19:42 PM »
Quote from: Dust Monkey on February 16, 2010, 12:21:34 AM
They stuck their noses in on Heller.  Attempted to derail the case or shut it down all together. Heller went our way, with no thanks to the NRA.

We. Got. Damn. Lucky.

When Levy and Gura started Heller, the NRA counted noses on the SC and figured that we would probably lose.  They figured that Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas were solid, Kennedy a maybe and who knows which way O'Conner would go.  That's veeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrry thin odds, on which to bet everyone's 2A rights.

Bush II giving us Alito and Roberts, was the "Hail Mary", that got us where we are today.   So before you pick up that club to bash the NRA for initially opposing Heller, stop and think about what would have happened if we would have lost Heller.  'Cause it damn well could have happened.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2010, 04:13:46 PM »
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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2010, 07:28:56 PM »
If I started the thread drift, I do apologize. But I stand by my statement. We had a republican president and congress. For over 8 years, not one attempt to initiate and push through pro 2A legislation. Sure the AWB sunsetted and gun lawsuits were shut down, but nothing that advanced the RKBA. Until the Heller case. And instead of helping, the NRA tried to shut it down.

It's wasn't my choice, it's wasn't your choice or any collective choice as to when Heller brought HIS suit. It was Heller's choice. His rights were being trampled on and he had the nuts to say "enough". Sure we could have lost. But again, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I would like to see the day that Nationwide carry is bass on Vermont style. No permit. Those of you who are content with the permit system, well your not really exercising a right. Your asking permission to excersise a right. And, pardon the pun, that ain't right.
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2010, 07:30:07 PM »
New and improved makattak.  Now with 71.3% more snark!

 ;)

(I don't think they get it.)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2010, 07:40:59 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 16, 2010, 07:30:07 PM
New and improved makattak.  Now with 71.3% more snark!

 ;)

(I don't think they get it.)

I got the attempt at sarcasm, but I decided it was useful to reply with a factual link anyway.
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Silver Bullet

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2010, 11:40:04 PM »
Quote
For over 8 years, not one attempt to initiate and push through pro 2A legislation. Sure the AWB sunsetted and gun lawsuits were shut down, but nothing that advanced the RKBA.

Well ... since you brought it up again ...

The AWB and gun lawsuits had everything to do with RKBA.  Also, consider the NRA sued San Francisco to get their gun ban overturned, sued Louisiana to get guns returned after Katrina, and sued Seattle to overturn the mayor's edict of no guns on city property.

And it's not just about getting pro-RKBA legislation passed, it's also about getting anti-RKBA legislation squashed, or at least watered down when they don't have the votes to get it squashed.

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2010, 11:51:02 PM »
Quote
And it's not just about getting pro-RKBA legislation passed, it's also about getting anti-RKBA legislation squashed, or at least watered down when they don't have the votes to get it squashed.

I realize this.  But it seems that keeping the status quo seems to be the goal, with the NRA and some gun owners.  Pushing for pro 2A Legislation is the best course.  See, if Pro 2A Legislation had been a goal, and had passed, we might not have needed to "get back" gun owners property back after a disaster.  One could argue, if we had some really strong Pro 2A Laws, peoples guns in LA would not have been confiscated in the first place.

I dont know about you, but the status quo is not acceptable to me.  I dont like jumping through hoops to be able to exercise a basic right.  If you do, hey, whatever floats your boat.  But it seems you just dont want to rock the boat and are willing to accept having to ask permission to carry a gun. 

Back to the thread.  Its still bad form for the NRA, or any other group to barge in like a bull in a china closet and stomp on someone else's party.  We can debate what the NRA could do, has done or should do until the end of time.  Still does not change that fact.
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“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Silver Bullet

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2010, 12:08:24 AM »
Quote
I realize this.  But it seems that keeping the status quo seems to be the goal, with the NRA and some gun owners.  Pushing for pro 2A Legislation is the best course.  See, if Pro 2A Legislation had been a goal, and had passed, we might not have needed to "get back" gun owners property back after a disaster.  One could argue, if we had some really strong Pro 2A Laws, peoples guns in LA would not have been confiscated in the first place.

That's ridiculous.  We already had the laws in place, and SF, Louisiana, and Seattle broke the laws.  That's how the NRA was able to get the laws overturned, the new laws were in violation of existing laws.  What "pro-RKBA laws" do you have in mind ?  Instead of, "cities cannot make gun laws more restrictive than the state" you want "cities cannot make gun laws more restrictive than the state, and we really really mean it." ?

Quote
I dont like jumping through hoops to be able to exercise a basic right.  If you do, hey, whatever floats your boat.  But it seems you just dont want to rock the boat and are willing to accept having to ask permission to carry a gun. 

 :facepalm:  Point out where I said anything like that.  :mad:
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Silver Bullet

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2010, 12:14:19 AM »
There are gun owners who do their share to help the RKBA cause, and those that don’t.

Some who do belong to organizations that fight for RKBA, such as the NRA, Second Amendment Foundation, various state organizations, etc.

Some gun owners don’t belong to any of these groups.  That’s okay, I guess, maybe they’re pro-active in other ways, such as taking new shooters to the range frequently.

Some gun owners don’t really do anything except criticize the ones who are doing something.  Many of the folks who criticize the NRA aren’t members of the NRA, they don’t contribute to the NRA, they only criticize the NRA.  Now you have a situation where some folks, like NRA members, are doing all the heavy lifting, the real work of making things better.  And other folks are just couch potatoes sitting on the sofa eating popcorn and screaming at the NRA to work harder.

Do you see yourself in any of these categories ?
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