Author Topic: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court  (Read 23669 times)

MicroBalrog

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The NRA Muscles into McDonald v. Chicago
“Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court

Brian Doherty | February 10, 2010

McDonald v. Chicago, the Supreme Court case that will settle whether or not the Second Amendment applies to states and localities, is gearing up to radically challenge Court precedent when it comes to defending rights against state infringement.

Alan Gura, lawyer for the Chicago plaintiffs whose right to effectively defend their lives in their own homes has been abridged by the city's ban on handgun possession, previously won 2008's D.C. v. Heller, the case establishing that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess weapons against federal encroachment. Gura is responsible, then, for the rehabilitation and revival of one constitutional amendment already. In McDonald, rather than merely extending the Second’s reach, he is aiming to rehabilitate and revive the 14th Amendment as well.

However, the Supreme Court’s decision in late January to grant 10 of Gura’s 30 minutes of oral argument time to the National Rifle Association (NRA) seems likely to hurt chances that the Court will take the more dramatic route laid before them. The NRA isn't a plaintiff in McDonald (though they were parties in an earlier version heard by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, which combined separate challenges to Chicago’s gun bans), and the organization's intent is to emphasize the more limited and traditional method of incorporating the Second Amendment against the states via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.

To sum up a very complicated legal argument quickly, Gura's McDonald briefs do not rely solely on the traditional due process method. He also argued that 14th Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause was more clearly intended to accomplish such incorporation, in terms of both legal logic and history.

An early misstep in 14th Amendment jurisprudence back in 1873 effectively murdered that clause, however, despite the fact that its value to vindicate citizens' rights against government encroachment is vast. The significance of the clause and the Slaughterhouse Cases that killed it were explained in a December Reason column.

If the the Privileges or Immunities Clause is restored to its original meaning—and pretty much all the relevant history from the 14th Amendment’s ratification proves it was meant to do more than just protect certain rights of national citizenship, contrary to the Slaughterhouse majority—American jurisprudence would become much more respectful of both unenumerated and enumerated rights. However, that very possibility makes lots of people who are otherwise rooting for Gura uncomfortable.

As Reason’s Damon Root summed up aptly, “The 14th Amendment was specifically designed and ratified to protect a sweepingly libertarian idea of self-ownership. That idea includes the right to acquire property, run a business, and buy and sell labor without unnecessary or improper interference by the government.”

Thus, if Gura wins on privileges or immunities grounds, it will open up the full richness of the 14th Amendment’s original meaning, which makes the stakes for a victory in McDonald far higher than just preventing states and localities from stopping citizens keeping guns in their homes. It is also worth remembering, as many gun rights advocates grumbled when Heller was decided, that whether the gun right protected by that case goes much beyond the use of commonly owned firearms for self-protection in the home is a matter for future courts to decide. If McDonald is won, on whatever grounds, expect the courts to swell with challenges to the dizzying variety of ways that localities restrict gun rights.

While Gura thinks the expansive power of the Privileges or Immunities Clause is great, lots of people on the right—who otherwise support extending the right to keep and bear arms to the states—don’t. (The NRA also offered an alternative argument based on the Privileges or Immunities Clause in a brief, but its explicit purpose in horning in on the oral arguments is to stress the Due Process Clause.) A representative summation of that sort of worry comes from Ken Klukowski at the conservative web site Townhall.com:

    [the] libertarian activists behind McDonald openly explain that the reason they are pushing the Court to overrule Slaughter-House has nothing to do with guns. Instead, they want to advance a libertarian economic agenda, where federal judges could sit in judgment of state and local laws involving labor, employment, business regulations and other economic issues. Although the Constitution is silent on these matters, these activists want the courts to start declaring constitutional rights against such things, and using the power of the federal judiciary to strike down laws of this sort that the judges don’t like.

Gura fought for his right to argue his case his own way, explaining in a brief to the Court that the NRA’s request relied on “unjustified” speculation that he will somehow fail to argue on due process grounds as well—despite the fact that Gura did make such arguments. Yet Gura failed to convince the Court, and with no explanation the Court gave 10 minutes of Gura’s 30 minutes to the NRA and their (very respected) hired gun, Paul Clement. Clement, in his role as U.S. Solicitor General back in 2008, argued in Heller’s hearings for the Supreme Court to rein in any individual right contained in the Second Amendment at least enough to preserve laws like the federal machine gun ban. As a result, Clement's Second Amendment bonafides are widely questioned.

Gura’s reply brief to Chicago shows a lawyer fully prepared to flay the pretty shoddy arguments advanced by his opponents from Chicago, which include arguing in effect that if we can imagine a civilized society that does not respect a certain right, then states shouldn’t be required to honor it. (Chicago also seems to believe, as Gura sums up wryly, that “ordered liberty” refers to “the government’s liberty to issue orders.”)

To legal scholars such as The Volokh Conspiracy’s Orin Kerr, who never believed the Supreme Court would seriously consider overturning Slaughterhouse, the Court giving the NRA time is further proof that a McDonald victory—which seems likely given that the Heller majority is still sitting on the bench—will certainly be on the less revolutionary due process grounds. Kerr writes that Gura’s Privileges or Immunities Clause arguments “will be more of a lively intellectual exercise than a likely basis for the Court’s decision.”

Legal scholar Josh Blackman makes an interesting case that, contra Kerr’s belief that the Court will take the less disruptive of precedent route to victory, the Court is on occasion willing to vindicate a plaintiff’s rights in a radical way even when a less radical way is open to them, particularly when lawyers try to force the Court's hand, as in 1989’s Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

The history of conflict between the NRA and Gura dates back to Heller, when the gun rights organization, fearing a loss (or, in some interpretations, fearing a victory where it could not claim credit), attempted to stymie or take over the case for years before finally jumping on board as allies in the closing stretch. Gura is openly peeved that his strategy is being questioned and his time encroached on against his will. He is, he points out, willing and able to argue the due process justification for incorporation. But the reason he dedicates only 7 pages out of 73 to it is that—as he states in his opposition brief to the NRA’s move—he knew Due Process Clause arguments would be more familiar to the justices due to the very fact that they are the more traditional means to win incorporation. (When it comes to wondering who had proven themselves most competent to make a thorough due process argument, Blackman also points out the NRA failed in its brief to note the Glucksberg test, which was used in the 9th Circuit's Nordyke decision that did recognize Second Amendment incorporation on due process grounds.)

As Gura complained in The Washington Post, the NRA is “not bringing anything substantive to the argument. The NRA is principally interested in taking credit and fundraising.”

In that same Post story, the Cato Institute’s Ilya Shapiro, who has been sharply critical of the NRA’s encroachment on Gura's arguments, was paraphrased on how the NRA/Gura conflict exemplified “the differing approaches [of] 'gun nuts,' whose sole interest is a protection of Second Amendment rights, [and] 'constitution nuts,' who think the case offers a chance to reassert the importance of the privileges-or-immunities argument.”

Some forces in the gun rights community, such as one of its oldest warriors and scholars, David Hardy, refuse to take sides between the NRA and Gura. Instead, Hardy applauds both arguments and both arguers, and begs the gun rights community to stop encouraging dissension: “They're going into the fight of their lives, no OUR lives, and don't need the distractions. We can all engage in internecine battles after oral argument, or better yet, the decision. For now they need to concentrate. Bottom line: there is no bad way to win a case.”

This is admirably ecumenical, but it elides the larger possibilities at issue in the Privileges or Immunities Clause argument (which is exactly what many in the gun rights world want): that, as Gura writes in his reply brief, “applying constitutional text as plainly intended by the Framers and understood by the ratifying public possesses high intrinsic value. Nowhere is that value higher than when enforcing basic national civil rights standards.” That is the opportunity that could be lost if the NRA’s arguing time means that the Supreme Court wants to incorporate on the old Due Process Clause grounds rather than the truly radical, yet also truly original, Privileges or Immunities Clause grounds.

Senior Editor Brian Doherty is author of This is Burning Man (BenBella), Radicals for Capitalism (PublicAffairs) and Gun Control on Trial (Cato Institute).


http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/10/the-nra-muscles-into-mcdonald

Micro Sez:

I had always said this was the main problem with the case: DP vs. P&I, not the personality of the NRA's attorney.
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StopTheGrays

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Can someone sum this up in 2 or three sentences?
Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
Just great…Chicago politics has spread to all 57 states.
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makattak

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Can someone sum this up in 2 or three sentences?

The libertarians are gambling gun rights in order to get a broader judgement against government power. NRA wants to argue the more traditional means of protecting gun rights. Libertarians are pissy that the NRA doesn't want to gamble. (Include attack on NRA as well.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

StopTheGrays

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The libertarians are gambling gun rights in order to get a broader judgement against government power. NRA wants to argue the more traditional means of protecting gun rights. Libertarians are pissy that the NRA doesn't want to gamble. (Include attack on NRA as well.)
Thanks.
Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
Just great…Chicago politics has spread to all 57 states.
They told me if I voted for John McCain, my country would look like it is run by people with a disturbing affinity towards fascism. And they were right!

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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I'll trust Gura over anyone at the NRA, period. The NRA tried to derail Gura in the Heller case. For the reasons listed above.

Other than the shooter safety courses and such, I don't see much benefit that the NRA gives gun owners. Except, like elected critters, wanting my money every election cycle. And wanting more of my money for court cases, that they weren't invited.
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makattak

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I'll trust Gura over anyone at the NRA, period. The NRA tried to derail Gura in the Heller case. For the reasons listed above.

Other than the shooter safety courses and such, I don't see much benefit that the NRA gives gun owners. Except, like elected critters, wanting my money every election cycle. And wanting more of my money for court cases, that they weren't invited.

The libertarians are gambling gun rights in order to get a broader judgement against government power. NRA wants to argue the more traditional means of protecting gun rights. Libertarians are pissy that the NRA doesn't want to gamble. (Include attack on NRA as well.)

There we go.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Hey. If the NRA had their way, we wouldn't have had Heller. At all.

Whatever floats your boat about the NRA. But not helping, trying to stand in the way, then jumping on when it looks like it's a winner, say a lot about an organization. Gura is a winner. The NRA is out for $$.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Jim147

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I am a very firm supporter of RKBA but the NRA hasn't seen any of my money in two years. I think they should change their ways. But if they are getting enough money the way they are doing it then they won't change. It's up to us to change them.

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tyme

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The libertarians are gambling gun rights in order to get a broader judgement against government power. NRA wants to argue the more traditional means of protecting gun rights. Libertarians are pissy that the NRA doesn't want to gamble. (Include attack on NRA as well.)

That last bit about gambling is inaccurate.  As stated in the article, Gura included the due process incorporation argument in his brief.  The SCOTUS does not need a review of that.  They know due process incorporation law inside and out.  Gura spending more than 7 pages on it would have been a waste of valuable time and effort.

There's no gamble.  The due process incorporation avenue is fully open to the SCOTUS without the NRA needing to be heard on the issue.

I hope I'm wrong, but this seems like it's all about having a major interest group get before the Court to support a moderate viewpoint in an effort to marginalize Gura's P&I clause theory.  It's pure pandering and intellectual dishonesty, but that would be nothing new for the NRA, for the Court, or for politics in this country.
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makattak

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Hey. If the NRA had their way, we wouldn't have had Heller. At all.

Whatever floats your boat about the NRA. But not helping, trying to stand in the way, then jumping on when it looks like it's a winner, say a lot about an organization. Gura is a winner. The NRA is out for $$.

Wow, it's almost like all the explanations about it was a 5-4 decision made by justices that were not on the court when the suit was brought had never been put forth.

We were one justice away from a decision AGAINST our gun rights. But, of course, that wasn't the NRA's concern, they just want more money.  :facepalm:
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Wow, it's almost like all the explanations about it was a 5-4 decision made by justices that were not on the court when the suit was brought had never been put forth.

How many of those judges actually argued that the 2nd wasn't an individual right?
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makattak

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How many of those judges actually argued that the 2nd wasn't an individual right?

Ruling it's an individual right, but the government can outlaw any guns they want is rather detrimental, no?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Wow, it's almost like all the explanations about it was a 5-4 decision made by justices that were not on the court when the suit was brought had never been put forth.

Again. If the NRA had their way, we would not have even seen a 5-4 decision, a victory in the Heller case. Zip, nada. Nothing wrong with a 5-4 decision. It's a win. Gura has a plan. Heller was a piece of that foundation. Now incorporation is the next piece. But the NRA continues to interject themselves where they are not wanted.

With the make of the current court, I dare say that we will no see many unanimous decisions or even majority 7 or better. I just don't see it happening.

“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Why does Gura think he gets to gamble with our constitutional rights without the rest of us having any say in the process?

I want the NRA involved in this process.  I think there should be cooler heads involved in this process, to temper some of Gura's recklessness.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2010, 03:23:59 PM »
The NRA didn't want Heller to go to the Court. So if they had their way way, no Heller. No SC decision stating the 2A is an individual right. The NRA worked against Gura in Heller, at first. Then jumped on the bandwagon after is was a win.

I don't think Gura is reckless. I think the man is right on track. Remember, for over 10 years, the NRA had a majority republican congress that not one pro 2A bill was passed and signed into law. I don't want the NRA decidng what the 2A means. The NRA is ok with the Brady Bill and other "common sense" legislation (gun control). That is not the mindset of a group that understands the 2A.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

makattak

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The NRA didn't want Heller to go to the Court. So if they had their way way, no Heller. No SC decision stating the 2A is an individual right. The NRA worked against Gura in Heller, at first. Then jumped on the bandwagon after is was a win.

I don't think Gura is reckless. I think the man is right on track. Remember, for over 10 years, the NRA had a majority republican congress that not one pro 2A bill was passed and signed into law. I don't want the NRA decidng what the 2A means. The NRA is ok with the Brady Bill and other "common sense" legislation (gun control). That is not the mindset of a group that understands the 2A.

Wow so much misinformation.

Point one has been asked and answered. It seems you are unable to comprehend the fact that the judges who ruled in favor of Heller were not on the court when the suit was brought, meaning we would have LOST if some judges had not retired.

Secondly, no gun laws?

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=141

That's off the top of my head. National park carry is another one.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

sumpnz

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
 
Reg: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yes.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias: And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.

(more general murmurs of agreement)
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Xerxes: Brought peace!
Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!

MicroBalrog

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Ruling it's an individual right, but the government can outlaw any guns they want is rather detrimental, no?

That's what they ended up ruling, no?

Before Heller was decided, many, many people believed that even such an individual rights ruling as the minority has delivered would be a win for us.

Not a single judge could be found to stand with the collective rights argument.
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MicroBalrog

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Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

The Romans brought the Jews neither public order, nor sanitation, nor irrigation, nor baths. All of these are mentioned in the Old Testament and other sources as existing in the pre-Roman era. Neither had the Romans brought peace. I suggest you shouldn't rely on Monty Python as your guide to history.

Jews had an advanced system of justice before Rome was ever founded.
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Silver Bullet

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judges who ruled in favor of Heller were not on the court when the suit was brought, meaning we would have LOST if some judges had not retired

I'm glad someone pointed that out.

Subsequently the NRA offered financial help, but Gura declined.  Maybe its Gura who doesn't want to share credit.

Quote
The NRA tried to derail Gura in the Heller case. For the reasons listed above.
Quote
If the NRA had their way, we would not have even seen a 5-4 decision

It's disingenuous to claim that the NRA didn't want a victory in Heller.  When you say things like that, it calls into question everything else you say.

makattak

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The Romans brought the Jews neither public order, nor sanitation, nor irrigation, nor baths. All of these are mentioned in the Old Testament and other sources as existing in the pre-Roman era. Neither had the Romans brought peace. I suggest you shouldn't rely on Monty Python as your guide to history.

Jews had an advanced system of justice before Rome was ever founded.

Quite.

However, I believe he wasn't offering the scene as historically accurate, but as an analogy...
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Quite.

However, I believe he wasn't offering the scene as historically accurate, but as an analogy...

A very correct analogy. :D
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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sumpnz

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Thanks mak.  I would have thought that was obvious.

Monty Python is useful for sooooo many situations.

Jim147

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Monty Python is useful for sooooo many situations.

I think so, but my wife just doesn't agree.

jim
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And sometimes goes on and on and on.

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AJ Dual

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That's what they ended up ruling, no?

Before Heller was decided, many, many people believed that even such an individual rights ruling as the minority has delivered would be a win for us.

Not a single judge could be found to stand with the collective rights argument.

If they had a liberal activist majority on the court, they would gladly have written away the individual rights interpretation. There are plenty of Federal judges who already had in the lower circuits. There's no reason they couldn't have been nominated instead.

The dissenting opinions were agreeing with the individual right interpretation in a "yes but..." fashion, just to give themselves intellectual cover.

And as others have mentioned, an "individual right" ruling could still be rendered toothless/dead-letter in terms of the scrutiny standard etc...  Either you're pro-RKBA or you aren't. And the liberal justices aren't.

The NRA didn't want Heller to go to the Court. So if they had their way way, no Heller. No SC decision stating the 2A is an individual right. The NRA worked against Gura in Heller, at first. Then jumped on the bandwagon after is was a win.

I don't think Gura is reckless. I think the man is right on track. Remember, for over 10 years, the NRA had a majority republican congress that not one pro 2A bill was passed and signed into law. I don't want the NRA decidng what the 2A means. The NRA is ok with the Brady Bill and other "common sense" legislation (gun control). That is not the mindset of a group that understands the 2A.

The tin-foil "NRA wants gun-control to keep themselves in business"-mantra just... gets... old. Even with more clear-cut victories than what we've had with Heller, anti-gun forces never rest, and there will never be a shortage of work for the NRA.

You can dislike what the NRA did in Heller, but equating reluctance out of fear of losing with outright betrayal is just idiocy.
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