It's impossible to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures when there are so many (selectively enforced) laws that everyone everywhere at all times is doing something that gives "probable cause."
Are we even talking about the same thing? A consensual search doesn't even require probable cause. A refusal doesn't automatically lead to a dose of hickory shampoo.
Do you honestly not see how "You're constantly in violation of the law, which justifies us searching you whenever the hell we feel like it" is directly contradictory to "We're safeguarded from unreasonable searches because they have to show good cause"?
The traffic infraction is decidedly not justification for the search. The driver's consent is. You keep acting like the driver has no say in the matter and that absolutely isn't true.
Also, you seem to be in favor of selective enforcement here.
Absofrickinlutely!
I doubt any of us here could afford the cost of every ticket we would get if we were punished for every traffic infraction we committed in front of cops. Cities could afford to hire hundreds or thousands of new cops each just to enforce infractions if they wanted.
Are you happy to have everyone be a de facto criminal and the cops only punish the people they feel deserve it?
Nope, but in the case of all the laws we have, I definitely want police enforcing fewer. I want police focusing on the criminal element (often called "frequent flyers") rather than the APSers of the world,. I want fewer middle-aged soccer moms pulled over and more 16-25 year old males pulled over. I want police to give the guy trying to protect his family with a gun he shouldn't have a pass and enforce that law on the gangbanger. If well done, selective enforcement is a huge boon to freedom. If badly done, it is like any other abuse of authority.
You're pretty aggressively missing the point, a common flaw in cop fetishists.
What is a cop fetishist and what do you think makes me one?
You're claiming that a man with a gun "asking" you to do X (in a situation where refusal to comply with his requests to do Y and Z will lead to him using force against youcitation needed) is not coercive, and that a search granted under those circumstances is consensual. The point of the example is how ridiculous your claim is.
Refusing a search does not automatically lead to police using force against you. You keep saying that like repeating it will make it true. If it does turn out that way, it is almost certainly an abuse of authority outside the scope of law. And you say I'm the one making ridiculous claims.
If you need a legal education to avoid having a cop violate your rights I’d say that’s a problem with the system.
I'm all for reducing laws and making them easily understandable. Hell, I'm for a lot of major changes in law. I'm not convinced that making it harder for a cop to ask for permission to search someone's car would lead to any increase in freedom.
It is your own responsibility to make sure your rights aren’t violated as much as possible. It’s also your responsibility to make sure the grocery store isn’t over charging you for sales tax. If you found out that Local Business was systematically overcharging as a matter of course, would your response be “Good for them, and if folks are too stupid to double check the local tax code for the area to make sure that the sales tax charged is accurate it’s their own damn fault.”?
Of course not. But I also don't protest my local grocer because they ask me for a consensual donation to a children's hospital when I check out.
To not have the agents of the state use coercion and the implicit threat of force to violate the 4th Amendment? To stop the progress towards a society where everyone is a criminal and cops just enforce the laws against folks they feel have it coming? To make the default training not “Lie, threaten, and coerce the people you’re supposed to be serving into giving up their rights as a matter of course”?
I think you have a lot of the same ignorance I used to have. Here's a suggestion: call up your local cop shop. Tell them you're curious about the police and ask them if they offer civilian ride-alongs. If they don't, check with your county sheriff or other nearby towns. Many will let you. Buy them a meal on their break time and talk with them.
There are a hell of a lot fewer stormtroopers than you think there are.
Jamis, I don't think you understand the concept of probable cause and its applicability to consensual searches either.
