Author Topic: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes  (Read 15309 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2013, 09:49:44 AM »
Problem is, to retain that inventory the business won't be running as "leanly", will have lower margins (even assuming no inventory taxes, as they'll have more cash tied up in inventory), and in turn have to charge more for their product.

Since most customers care more about the price than loyalty to any particular business, they'll buy from JITCo 9 out of 10 times, and only buy from Non-JIT, Inc., when they want that one product JITCo is out of.

They may be happier with Non-JIT, Inc., but they'll simply spend more money at JITCo.

Let me clue you in on another non-math, economically un-optimised reality:  Personality, Culture, Tradition, and Inertia.

It was a big deal in the southern state where I did industrial sales.

It even effects big-*expletive deleted*ss corporations.  For 30+ years, a certain corporation bought all its PCs, laptops, servers, etc. from a company started by ex-employees of that corporation. Even later spin-offs from the parent company kept up the relationship on what had become a commodity.  Or, how about Ford & Firestone? 

Humans are unpredictable critters with gooey motivations & behaviors and economics textbooks usually overlook that.  Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in data, math, and models.  But when you have done your math right and your model does not fit reality, more like the model is flawed, not reality.  Which is why economics, psych, etc. are all soft or "fuzzy" sciences or not truly science when they step beyond the bounds of observation to make conclusions built on foundations of sand and caprice.
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roo_ster

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Tallpine

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 10:33:57 AM »
It's not just MBAs that like JIT.  Grab a random Joe from the street and chances are he doesn't just like the idea, he lives it religiously.

If taxation were truly the driving issue, one would think that most individuals not subject to inventory taxes would manage their own large standing inventory of necessary items.  Yet the vast majority of people choose to live their lives in a state of perpetual just in time inventory for nearly everything, and for largely the same reasons as business do so.  Sometimes it results in catastrophe, but most of the time people like the results.

You don't know about some APS members food and ammo stashes ?   =D
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Marnoot

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2013, 10:53:36 AM »
Roo_ster, I'm not arguing that JIT is always better than other systems. My main point was that for many businesses JIT just plain makes the most sense, and has little-to-nothing to do with taxes, that's it. There are definitely businesses where it doesn't make sense. For businesses like Walmart or Target, they'd wither and die without JIT. For B2B businesses like you're describing, it was obviously not a good fit.

However for businesses like Walmart (and many other retailers) your paradigms of personality, culture, tradition, and inertia are pretty close to worthless. People shop there because they're the best deal, period, and so long as some minimum level of quality and availability is met people will continue to do so in droves. The mom & pop shops and groceries Walmart puts out of business have personality, culture, and tradition in spades and look what good it does them.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »
Humans are unpredictable critters with gooey motivations & behaviors and economics textbooks usually overlook that.

Philosophically correct, but contextually misplaced.  A human's (singular) behavior can be unpredictable, but human (plural inclusive, as in population) consumer behavior has distinctive patterns that can be accurately modeled within reasonable parameters.  Corporations don't spend hundred of millions on consumer models because they like the pretty charts and graphs, they do it because it's a good business investment with a proven return.

Brad
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cordex

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2013, 11:42:46 AM »
You don't know about some APS members food and ammo stashes ?   =D
Those APS members are not even close to the norm (and I mean that in a mostly good way).

roo_ster

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2013, 12:02:40 PM »
Philosophically correct, but contextually misplaced.  A human's (singular) behavior can be unpredictable, but human (plural inclusive, as in population) consumer behavior has distinctive patterns that can be accurately modeled within reasonable parameters.  Corporations don't spend hundred of millions on consumer models because they like the pretty charts and graphs, they do it because it's a good business investment with a proven return.

Brad

Yep, which is why econometrics has eliminated economic bubbles, recessions, and the Clearance Rack at the back of the store.

[Who are you going to believe?  Your economics text or your lying eyes?  When reality diverges from theory, run with theory, I guess.]

Brad, you have more faith in modeling than the modelers I know.  I use and develop models to generate requirements, assess alternatives, and suchlike for my industry.  My tool set is mostly physics-based, which is the "easy(1)" part.  Less easy are the bits that normally would rely on horrifically complex, hard to grasp, and expensive to calculate chaos & complexity theory.  By making some assumptions(2), we can get close enough for our objectives.  Then there is human behavior modeling, which is the least sound portion, despite there existing voluminous literature on concepts of operations, doctrine, etc.  (Quick: what are the CONOPS for an entirely new widgit or functionality on an existing widgit?)  Those and other assumptions & limitations are up-front on any analysis product or model delivered.  It is why the approach of a baseline & alternatives that perform relative to the baseline is used, rather than (in most cases) explicit outcomes.

In many ways, economists and their models are similar to the global warmist crowd.  Both have an imperfect understanding of their field of study and their field of study is dreadfully complex.  Both also get prickly when folk point that out and they get REALLY cranky when the delta between their models and reality is shoved in their faces.

I am not saying all economists are stupid, just the ones who do not understand how their models are lacking and how their assumptions can undermine their model's validity.

I am not saying all economists are dishonest, just the smart ones who are not upfront regarding the assumptions & limitations of their toolset.

I also am not saying that such models do not have their uses.  Take Wal-Mart.  My dad was in logistics for decades and admired Wal-mart's approach.  He knew he could not replicate it or compete against it given the resources he had to work with.  So, he exploited means & phenomena not taken into account by WM's logistical model & implementation.  He did not "beat" WM, but he made his clients a lot of money and retired comfortably.


(1) In actuality, difficult, but amenable to mathematical models of reality using physics, statistics, and ancillary fields of study.

(2)
     " A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island, with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore. The physicist says, "Let's smash the can open with a rock." The chemist says, "Let's build a fire and heat the can first." The economist says, "Let's assume that we have a can-opener..." "

The reference comes from the stereotype that many economic models require unrealistic or absurd assumptions in order to obtain results. The phrase is often used by economists to describe research that has particularly unusual or unrealistic assumptions (by the standards of modern economic research).




Today's news from the world of physics is both exciting, disturbing and potentially highly-disruptive. Even a low-level science buff like myself can get excited about the fact that the Standard Model -- long the mainstay of theoretical physics -- has been shown to have a major potential flaw.

But even amongst physicists whose work is inherently tied to the existing model, there are no put-downs, no dismissal of the work, no personal criticism of the scientists who claim the conflicting discovery. Rather, there is a true sense of inquisitiveness, a desire for greater proof and a recognition that if the discovery proves to be true, it will force the dismissal of formerly-held beliefs, but will in the end advance the field, not retard it.

Try presenting a similar type of observations to a bunch of economists. Bring a flak jacket if you do.

Unlike physicists, economists are not in the business of observing the world and building theories to model it, even if imperfectly. Economists have decided that they are in the business of creating perfect models, even if doing so requires shortcuts that defy reality. To this end they've made some grossly simplistic assumptions (that all markets are efficient and all people are rational) and built on those two very shaky assumptions a magnificent edifice which they feel compelled to defend. Take away the perfectly simple assumptions and economics gets very messy. Economists would have to admit that their models are imperfect, that the physics-like perfection they've developed in their models is just a lie, and that any pretense they have to being a science at all is nothing but hubris. They might decide to attack you as being uninformed or unsuited to comment on the complexity of their work.
This guy is a bit blind to the human side of physics, but his overall point is sound.  He just does not take into account the messy nature of the men doing physics.
Regards,

roo_ster

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tokugawa

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2013, 12:22:59 PM »
JIT has a corollary. Several in fact. for example there is OOS. (out of stock). And NOTT (not on the truck.)
 
and WHDTP (we have discontinued that product) and OSIJHSD (our supplier in Japan has shut down) etc.
 
 JIT is perfect, when the entire supply chain is operating well. Making assumptions of availability of supplies has risk.  That is why we keep a stock of raw material around-to cushion the effect if there IS  a delay in the supply chain. For example, I had a shipment leave a port in Japan one day before the tsunami destroyed the port. 
 
 
 
 

Brad Johnson

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2013, 12:48:21 PM »

Brad, you have more faith in modeling than the modelers I know. 


Nah, what I have is three decades of business experience showing me the modelers are generally right.  Plus, I have this thing called a "calculator" and something called "history" that let's me figure up a "budget" which, in turn, let's me develop a "business plan" and "goals" which includes such alien things as "risk analysis" and "net revenue estimates".  Esoteric stuff, I know, but I find it to be quite useful.

Brad
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 03:12:39 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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Levant

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Re: Re: Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2013, 05:26:16 PM »
Yeah... property taxes in general piss me off. I understand the necessity of some, but some places take it way too far.

I'm curious which property taxes you understand because I don't understand any of them.

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Fitz

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Re: Re: Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2013, 06:21:17 PM »
I'm curious which property taxes you understand because I don't understand any of them.

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My property taxes are quite low. i like having a fire department, police department, and a good library here in my county.
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charby

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Re: Re: Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2013, 06:27:52 PM »
My property taxes are quite low. i like having a fire department, police department, and a good library here in my county.

and nice paved neighborhood streets.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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Tallpine

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2013, 06:44:05 PM »
Well, in theory roads, police/fire, and the recording/protection of your property ownership are worth something  =|

In practice, I'm not so sure  =(
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French G.

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2013, 07:03:35 PM »
Replace ammo panic with food panic. Plan accordingly. From my view the current admin's war on food is yielding more success than their war on ammo.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Hutch

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2013, 08:35:33 PM »
JIT introduces risk that other inventory systems aren't as vulnerable to.  Bad weather, labor unrest, civil disturbance, transportation issues...  if Joe Sixpack doesn't find his preferred brand of beer, or Suzy Mallshopper can't find just the right shade of lipstick, they don't have existential threat.  If ambulances don't run because fuel supplies are disrupted, or (as has happened recently) life saving meds are not available, you can expect at least some people to long for the good ol' days.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2013, 11:39:23 PM »
JIT introduces risk that other inventory systems aren't as vulnerable to.  Bad weather, labor unrest, civil disturbance, transportation issues...  if Joe Sixpack doesn't find his preferred brand of beer, or Suzy Mallshopper can't find just the right shade of lipstick, they don't have existential threat.  If ambulances don't run because fuel supplies are disrupted, or (as has happened recently) life saving meds are not available, you can expect at least some people to long for the good ol' days.

True, but JIT also recognizes that exceptions are just that. Exceptions.  They are occurances with a lower probability than Business As Usual.  Since businesses are there to make *gasp* money, they go with the higher probability because it is *also gasp* much more likely.  Seeing as how Much More Likely has, historically, been more sucessfully followed than Far Less Likely, it is the path they follow for (drum roll) Higher Long Term Profitability.

Brad
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 11:42:27 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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Balog

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2013, 01:27:33 AM »
Even for you this is unusually arrogant and condescending, and that's an accomplishment.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2013, 01:57:22 AM »
Even for you this is unusually arrogant and condescending, and that's an accomplishment.


what is this i dont even ??

Wal-Mart is not morally obligated to have everything you need. YOU are obligated to take care of you and yours. If you can't depend on Heartless Corporation to make sure that stuff is available, then store your own stuff.
 :facepalm:
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 10:16:06 AM by charby »
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cordex

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2013, 08:43:24 AM »
Yeah, what was that in reference to Balog?
If you can't depend on Heartless Corporation to make sure that stuff is available, then store your own stuff.
Exactly, just like the Good Ol' Days: Store up in times of plenty.

Marnoot

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2013, 11:10:48 AM »
Yeah, the only real condescension I'm seeing in this thread is coming from you, Balog:
MBA's (or internet wannabe MBA's) spouting nonsense

If you don't like businesses that employ JIT, don't shop at them. If JIT's a terrible idea, then all those companies that choose to employ it will eventually go out of business and you'll be left with those who do things the way you like. I wouldn't hold your breath, though.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 11:17:33 AM by Marnoot »

Ron

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2013, 05:31:17 PM »
Regardless of the merits or lack thereof of JIT inventory; taxing inventory is a dumb (IMHO) distortion of all the various markets.

Basically government is penalizing Jim if he decides to use some of his profits to buy a skid of refrigerant at the lower skid volume price. As a small shop it may take him longer than a year to go through all that refrigerant so taxing him wipes out any potential savings he gains from buying in bulk. 

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Marnoot

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2013, 05:46:49 PM »
Regardless of the merits or lack thereof of JIT inventory; taxing inventory is a dumb (IMHO) distortion of all the various markets.

Agreed. Taxes ought to be based purely on profit. They'd get their tax revenue when that inventory was sold. The way things are now the government gets to double-dip. Unfortunately, I don't see them giving that up any time soon.

Jim147

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2013, 07:52:19 PM »
Regardless of the merits or lack thereof of JIT inventory; taxing inventory is a dumb (IMHO) distortion of all the various markets.

Basically government is penalizing Jim if he decides to use some of his profits to buy a skid of refrigerant at the lower skid volume price. As a small shop it may take him longer than a year to go through all that refrigerant so taxing him wipes out any potential savings he gains from buying in bulk. 



Now if that had been R22 at $30 a jug by the pallet a few years ago, I might be alright. Now I would like to put some 410A up at current prices but do I? And can I turn a profit next year after taxes?

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Levant

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Re: Re: Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2013, 02:53:09 PM »
My property taxes are quite low. i like having a fire department, police department, and a good library here in my county.

None of those are reasonable responsibilities of the city, county, or state. 

I am a member of a volunteer fire department district.  There's no reason that all fire departments don't operate that way.  You pay, you get fire protection.  You don't pay and the fire department only protects your neighbors from your fire - and then bills you for what service they provided to your neighbors.

Here's an interesting treatise on law enforcement in the US.  The standing police force is nothing more than a standing army: http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

The first lending library in this country was a private corporation owned by Benjamin Franklin.  Following that, as government grew beyond the intent of the Founders, school boards were formed and libaries created to support schools.  This is a good thing and I support it.  The problem, though, is that the states and feds are involved in schools.  About 40 per cent of your local tax dollars go to schools.  Are you getting your money's worth?  If you give more money will it get better?  Schools need to be private with little to no regulation.  Parents could home school. They could make a school for their block, their community, or even their town.  Partner with your family and friends.  Buy the books your environment needs and create your own library.  Partner with other libraries to make your own private lending library system.

The only good arguments for property taxes are roads and sewer and I'm not too certain about roads. 

Where do your tax dollars go?

Here's an example from middle-America.  I found dozens of similar reports on where property taxes go and none very by much:  http://www.co.clark.wa.us/treasurer/property/proptaxgo.html

Notice that about 42% goes to education, 47% if you include libraries - and that's of your property taxes.  Around 16% of your property taxes go to the state.  So what does the state do with their revenue?

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=2783

40% of the state revenues go to education as well.  So, of your property taxes, a total of about 53% goes to education and 5 to 12 per cent goes to roads and infrastructure.

Being from the Washington DC area doesn't give me much information about the county you're in but do you really think you're getting value for your tax dollars?  Or are you getting paid by my tax dollars?




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French G.

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2013, 03:48:03 PM »
Quote
I am a member of a volunteer fire department district.  There's no reason that all fire departments don't operate that way.  You pay, you get fire protection.  You don't pay and the fire department only protects your neighbors from your fire - and then bills you for what service they provided to your neighbors.

That's not a VFD, that's a protection racket.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

roo_ster

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Re: Ammo Shortage, JIT inventory systems, and taxes
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2013, 04:15:41 PM »
That's not a VFD, that's a protection racket.

Only if the VFD starts non-payers' homes on fire.  Otherwise, it sounds pretty nice. 

We already have a voluntary homeowners' association to which I pay dues.  I could see several banding together to support such a VFD & VPD.
Regards,

roo_ster

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