« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane  (Read 8962 times)

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« on: July 17, 2014, 11:53:39 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Yes, yes. "It's too early to say what happened" and blah blah blah.

The rebels in Ukraine just shot down a passenger plane with 295 aboard. (I don't believe either the Russian government or the Ukrainian to be so stupid as to do this.)

This ought to bring retribution from the entire rest of the world. I'm guessing it will bring some harsh words and... a nasty letter from our government.
Report to moderator   Logged
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Maylaysian 777 shot down(?) over Ukraine, 295 lost
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 11:56:59 AM »
Report to moderator   Logged
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

41magsnub

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,579
  • Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 11:59:11 AM »
Too early to tell for sure, but it has to have been a mis-identified target.  The airliner was transiting, not landing or taking off from Ukraine and presumably was at cruising altitude.
Report to moderator   Logged

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,902
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:23 PM »
Quote from: makattak on July 17, 2014, 11:53:39 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Yes, yes. "It's too early to say what happened" and blah blah blah.

The rebels in Ukraine just shot down a passenger plane with 295 aboard. (I don't believe either the Russian government or the Ukrainian to be so stupid as to do this.)

This ought to bring retribution from the entire rest of the world. I'm guessing it will bring some harsh words and... a nasty letter from our government.

Maskirovka

Probably not a .gov entity, but the KGB has done shadier things.
Report to moderator   Logged

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 12:03:55 PM »
Quote from: 41magsnub on July 17, 2014, 11:59:11 AM
Too early to tell for sure, but it has to have been a mis-identified target.  The airliner was transiting, not landing or taking off from Ukraine the area and presumably was at cruising altitude.

Early reports state that it was at 35,000 feet.

Like the Korean passenger jet shot down in Russia (I believe? looked it up) that had to have been 3 minutes of just torture for the passengers. So very sad.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 12:07:13 PM by makattak »
Report to moderator   Logged
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2014, 12:04:56 PM »
Merged topics.
Report to moderator   Logged
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2014, 02:21:55 PM »
It could have been done by anyone in the region.

1. The Ukrainian government has shot down civilian airliners in peacetime. We know they're not too smart for this stuff.  We also know they're facing Russian Air Force aircraft (yesterday a Russian SU-27 ostensibly attacked a Ukrainian SU-25).
2. It obviously could have been the rebels.
3. It could have obviously been the Russians (they've attacked Ukrainian aircraft yesterday, why couldn't they do it today?)
4. It could have als obeen an accident.
Report to moderator   Logged
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 02:31:20 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on July 17, 2014, 02:21:55 PM
It could have been done by anyone in the region.

1. The Ukrainian government has shot down civilian airliners in peacetime. We know they're not too smart for this stuff.  We also know they're facing Russian Air Force aircraft (yesterday a Russian SU-27 ostensibly attacked a Ukrainian SU-25).
2. It obviously could have been the rebels.
3. It could have obviously been the Russians (they've attacked Ukrainian aircraft yesterday, why couldn't they do it today?)
4. It could have als obeen an accident.

It could have, yes. The chances of it being any but #2 are comparatively slight, in my opinion.  
Report to moderator   Logged
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,776
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 02:33:13 PM »
The news I have seen said it was a surface to air missile.  How small do they make those that can reach 32,000 feet?  I could be wrong, but I didn't think man portable anti-air could go that high.
Report to moderator   Logged
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 02:35:02 PM »
Quote from: MechAg94 on July 17, 2014, 02:33:13 PM
The news I have seen said it was a surface to air missile.  How small do they make those that can reach 32,000 feet?  I could be wrong, but I didn't think man portable anti-air could go that high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

(i.e. it wasn't man-portable that did it)
Report to moderator   Logged
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 04:08:50 PM »
Quote from: MechAg94 on July 17, 2014, 02:33:13 PM
The news I have seen said it was a surface to air missile.  How small do they make those that can reach 32,000 feet?  I could be wrong, but I didn't think man portable anti-air could go that high.

Looks like the minimum to do it would be an SA-6, and I just can't see the full launch needs of those being terribly discreet given modern satellite and radar capability.

Honestly, I'm surprised Boeing and Airbus haven't started offering some basic detection and countermeasures as a normal option for commercial jets that will have to transit areas like that.  Obviously the capability exists for most of their aircraft, since so many have been repurposed or minimally redesigned for military and diplomatic transport.
Report to moderator   Logged

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,078
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 04:20:12 PM »
There now exists the possibility that while perhaps not an "accident", it might have been a mistake due to ineptness. Untrained people getting access to complex weapons systems and pressing the wrong buttons can have unintended consequences. Recall the video a few months ago of people pushing the wrong buttons in the abandoned tank in Ukraine.

Quote
A separatist group tweeted a boast at about the same time the plane went down claiming to have downed a transport plane, but the tweet was quickly deleted. The self-titled "Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People's Republic" boasted in June 29 press release of having taken control of Buk missile defense systems. The Buk, or SA-11 missile launchers, have a range of up to 72,000 feet. 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-passenger-jet-shot-down-over-ukraine/
Report to moderator   Logged
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 04:35:25 PM »
*raises hand* why do they have to transit areas like that? Doesn't commercial aircraft generally avoid troubled airspace in the first place?

Personally, I'm not getting on a plane that's flying over a place where people are highly likely to shoot stuff at the plane. Just seems not so bright.
Report to moderator   Logged
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 04:43:04 PM »
Confirmed it was taken down by a SAM, evidence indicates either separatists or one of their Russian "advisers" fired it.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-150-ukrainian-troops-describe-grad-rocket-attack-from-russia/
Report to moderator   Logged
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,902
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2014, 04:44:13 PM »
Quote from: bluestarlizzard on July 17, 2014, 04:35:25 PM
*raises hand* why do they have to transit areas like that? Doesn't commercial aircraft generally avoid troubled airspace in the first place?

Personally, I'm not getting on a plane that's flying over a place where people are highly likely to shoot stuff at the plane. Just seems not so bright.

I looked at a map while Fox was blowharding on this subject.  Reason in the first:  skip it to the north and your transiting Afghanistan and Pakistan.  South; Syria, Iraq, and Iran.  Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Reason in the second: (more likely I feel)  Roll the dice.  How many jetliners get shot down?  I mean they are all sqwaking transponders.  Weigh that against howevermany thousand pounds of JetA it takes to go around whatever reginal hotspot is flaring this week.  $$$$.  And given how many little brush wars there are in the world, any real international airline is flying over a couple every day.  
Report to moderator   Logged

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2014, 04:47:45 PM »
http://lifenews.ru/watch-live

Livestream, no idea what they're saying but occasional graphic video of the wreckage.
Report to moderator   Logged
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2014, 04:57:34 PM »
Video purportedly of the crash, at long distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hbAirCuNnA&feature=youtu.be
Report to moderator   Logged
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 04:58:41 PM »
Obama was informed about by Putin. They were talking on the phone about the latest US sanctions, when Putin was informed and told Obama. Per Jennifer Griffen on Fox News reporting from the Pentagon.  =(
Report to moderator   Logged
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

SADShooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,242
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2014, 05:03:19 PM »
Quote from: Balog on July 17, 2014, 04:58:41 PM
Obama was informed about by Putin. They were talking on the phone about the latest US sanctions, when Putin was informed and told Obama. Per Jennifer Griffen on Fox News reporting from the Pentagon.  =(

At least he didn't hear about it in the "same media reports" we did...
Report to moderator   Logged
"Ah, is there any wine so sweet and intoxicating as the tears of a hippie?"-Tamara, View From the Porch

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2014, 05:08:53 PM »
Quote from: Balog on July 17, 2014, 04:58:41 PM
Obama was informed about by Putin. They were talking on the phone about the latest US sanctions, when Putin was informed and told Obama. Per Jennifer Griffen on Fox News reporting from the Pentagon.

Well, somebody was going to tell him about it sooner or later.  At least this way, it wasn't interrupting his golf game.
Report to moderator   Logged

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2014, 05:09:55 PM »
So what is Obama going to do when Russians/Seperatists shoot down a US airliner or an airliner containing several Americans?  I'm betting such thoughts makes Putin giggle like a little girl.


Elections do indeed have consequences.

Report to moderator   Logged
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2014, 05:11:52 PM »
Quote from: brimic on July 17, 2014, 05:09:55 PM
So what is Obama going to do when Russians/Seperatists shoot down a US airliner or an airliner containing several Americans?  I'm betting such thoughts makes Putin giggle like a little girl.

Guess we'll find out.  This plane had 23 Americans on it.
Report to moderator   Logged

SADShooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,242
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2014, 05:15:59 PM »
Quote from: brimic on July 17, 2014, 05:09:55 PM
So what is Obama going to do when Russians/Seperatists shoot down a US airliner or an airliner containing several Americans?  I'm betting such thoughts makes Putin giggle like a little girl.


Elections do indeed have consequences.



After changing his trousers, he will make a televised address and explain, in increasingly less credible or appealing platitudes, to all us rubes in flyover country that the world is a complex and challenging environment which calls for deliberation, and that he is adding another dozen-odd individuals to the existing sanctions list.

ETA: Per Nick's post, what primetime viewing will be interrupted tonight?
Report to moderator   Logged
"Ah, is there any wine so sweet and intoxicating as the tears of a hippie?"-Tamara, View From the Porch

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,078
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2014, 05:18:41 PM »
Quote from: brimic on July 17, 2014, 05:09:55 PM
So what is Obama going to do when Russians/Seperatists shoot down a US airliner or an airliner containing several Americans?  I'm betting such thoughts makes Putin giggle like a little girl.


Elections do indeed have consequences.

What will any US politicians do? I'm obviously no fan of Obama, but what will any Republicans do, other than bluster and perhaps pass sanctions that have no real meaning to Russia? It will be hard to prove (and may not be the case) that Russia had any direct involvement. It would be difficult to make a case for direct military response to Russia over something a separatist group likely did, or will get the blame for.


The US as it stands today, does not have the testicles to poke the sleeping Russian bear, let alone the Russian bear of today, which is kind of awake and grumpy. Even if we did, we are two nuclear powers. That's a dangerous game.
Report to moderator   Logged
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2014, 06:19:21 PM »
Quote from: Ben on July 17, 2014, 05:18:41 PM
What will any US politicians do? I'm obviously no fan of Obama, but what will any Republicans do, other than bluster and perhaps pass sanctions that have no real meaning to Russia? It will be hard to prove (and may not be the case) that Russia had any direct involvement. It would be difficult to make a case for direct military response to Russia over something a separatist group likely did, or will get the blame for.


The US as it stands today, does not have the testicles to poke the sleeping Russian bear, let alone the Russian bear of today, which is kind of awake and grumpy. Even if we did, we are two nuclear powers. That's a dangerous game.

What woukd RR or W do?  Hint: it wouldn't involve fellating foreign dignataries.
Report to moderator   Logged
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
« previous next »