Rebels Shot Down Passenger Plane

[SADShooter]

I will, based on the above, amend my earlier post to say that regardless of what other Presidents or politicians may or may not have done / would do in a similar situation, no President in my memory, going back to Carter, has looked as weak as Obama.  Even if they only blustered, they at least blustered about real consequences. When Obama blusters, he blusters about, "If you're not careful, we'll start a Twitter campaign!".

This entire administration seems to think the world is a Utopian university campus, where protest will illicit change, or at least concession, if only to shut the protesting students up and stop them from blocking the door to the campus tofu take-out.

I also wonder if this situation in Ukraine would exist to the degree it does now with an administration that didn't call Mitt Romney crazy for suggesting that the Russian Federation was a potential geopolitical threat to US interests.

The Emperor's ensemble is looking increasingly threadbare. [Wishful thinking/May the throngs of once-adoring spectators feel their eyes burn in the harsh light of reality./Wishful thinking]

[brimic]

Many news sources say 23 Americans were on board; our state department is trying to figure out what an "American" is.......

An American is anyone born anywhere, except white conservatives who were born in America- those are trrrrists.

[Balog]

Intel now reporting that it was likely the separatists.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/malaysia-airlines-plane-was-hit-by-surface-to-air-missile-u-s-officials-say-1405659584

[Balog]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=20c_1405627273

http://pastie.org/9400789#30

[Balog]

[Balog]

[dogmush]

Devil"s advocate mode:

Like BSL said don't fly over a war zone.  Unless we have some sort of evidence that those Americans on board were specifically targeted because they were Americans, this plane getting shot down doesn't rise to the level of foreign policy for the US.  Americans die overseas every day from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Sad, but a fact of life.

on the situation as a whole:

Remember how everyone agrees that the borders in the Mid East don't follow ethnic or cultural lines, and as a result there tends to be long-term unhappiness with the borders and strife?  Remember how we all agree it's stupid to get embroiled in those disputes because of the long history of differences and grievances on all side and in all ethnicities?

What makes you think Eastern Europe is any better?

A real quick scan of the wiki article on the Ukraine would indicate that the land we refer to as the ukraine has been settled and fought over for ~3000 years.  (I'm going to assume the neolithic guys weren't invade each other just for the sake of small numbers.)  It also appears that it was common to ship in ethnically <whoever won the last battle> to help hold the region since Roman times.  The LONGEST it seems to have gone without fighting over it's borders was as the Ukrainian SSR.  Not a banner time in history.

So it seems that some ethnically <not from Kiev> want to be politically <not from Kiev>.  And the Russians, whose great aunts and Uncles may or may not be in the region see some economic political gains to be had from  splitting the Ukraine and (probably) annexing the territory. The Kievan Ukrainians don't want this to happen.

Why do we care?  The oil and gas into Europe thing doesn't really matter to us, except that it might make North African oil cheaper.  Russia will become a little more powerful regionally, but as soon as our CinC gets a sac we can ask Putin where his Carrier Groups are.  Oh, That's right.  Yet Americans are all hyperventilating about some regional border spat in an area rife with regional border spats.  F it.  Let them sort it out.

/Devil's advocate mode.

[onions!]

Confirmed death toll so far
 
Netherlands: 189
Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew)
Australian: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
Unverified: 4
Total: 298
***********
'mericans?From the BBC.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28360827

[SADShooter]

line
Confirmed death toll so far
 
Netherlands: 189
Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew)
Australian: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
Unverified: 4
Total: 298
***********
'mericans?From the BBC.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28360827

"One of the most brilliant minds in Aids research, a young family on a journey back to Indonesia and tourists looking forward to holidays in the sun were among those who perished when MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine. " (from onions! linked article.)

Congratulations, a@@holes.

[Balog]

Devil"s advocate mode:

Like BSL said don't fly over a war zone.  Unless we have some sort of evidence that those Americans on board were specifically targeted because they were Americans, this plane getting shot down doesn't rise to the level of foreign policy for the US.  Americans die overseas every day from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Sad, but a fact of life.

on the situation as a whole:

Remember how everyone agrees that the borders in the Mid East don't follow ethnic or cultural lines, and as a result there tends to be long-term unhappiness with the borders and strife?  Remember how we all agree it's stupid to get embroiled in those disputes because of the long history of differences and grievances on all side and in all ethnicities?

What makes you think Eastern Europe is any better?

A real quick scan of the wiki article on the Ukraine would indicate that the land we refer to as the ukraine has been settled and fought over for ~3000 years.  (I'm going to assume the neolithic guys weren't invade each other just for the sake of small numbers.)  It also appears that it was common to ship in ethnically <whoever won the last battle> to help hold the region since Roman times.  The LONGEST it seems to have gone without fighting over it's borders was as the Ukrainian SSR.  Not a banner time in history.

So it seems that some ethnically <not from Kiev> want to be politically <not from Kiev>.  And the Russians, whose great aunts and Uncles may or may not be in the region see some economic political gains to be had from  splitting the Ukraine and (probably) annexing the territory. The Kievan Ukrainians don't want this to happen.

Why do we care?  The oil and gas into Europe thing doesn't really matter to us, except that it might make North African oil cheaper.  Russia will become a little more powerful regionally, but as soon as our CinC gets a sac we can ask Putin where his Carrier Groups are.  Oh, That's right.  Yet Americans are all hyperventilating about some regional border spat in an area rife with regional border spats.  F it.  Let them sort it out.

/Devil's advocate mode.

Putin is re-establishing Imperial Russia and the USSR's old borders. That's kind of a big deal.

[KD5NRH]

Unverified: 4

Is it really that much easier to get on a flight in the rest of the world?  I mean, I would assume it's a bit easier in Amsterdam than in DC, but it's still a modern airport, so do they really have no idea where four of the people are from?

[MillCreek]

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/over-100-hiv-experts-and-advocates-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

[KD5NRH]

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/over-100-hiv-experts-and-advocates-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

HIV advocates?

[roo_ster]

HIV advocates?

[sorta_simpsons]"Will someone please think of speak for the viruses?"[/sorta_simpsons]

[Ben]

What makes you think Eastern Europe is any better?

Yugoslavia is another good (bad?) example. There are definitely regions where group conflicts have been going on for as long as anyone can remember. I wish we would practice a little more isolationist policies regarding our involvement in those places, because we are only ever a crappy band-aid, if that, and eventually they go back to what they are good at.

[brimic]

Yugoslavia is another good (bad?) example. There are definitely regions where group conflicts have been going on for as long as anyone can remember. I wish we would practice a little more isolationist policies regarding our involvement in those places, because we are only ever a crappy band-aid, if that, and eventually they go back to what they are good at.

But but but muslims were being ethnicAlly cleansed by christians which runs 180 degrees out of sync from the natural order of things, we had to intervene!

[Hawkmoon]

Conceiveably,the loss of two airplanes could break the airline.

It's even more conceivable that a sudden lack of any passenger willing to buy a ticket on your airline could break an airline. And with two jumbo jets lost with six months, I think anyone who would willingly fly on Malaysia Airlines is certifiably nuts.

[onions!]

It's even more conceivable that a sudden lack of any passenger willing to buy a ticket on your airline could break an airline. And with two jumbo jets lost with six months, I think anyone who would willingly fly on Malaysia Airlines is certifiably nuts.

Absolutely.For some reason I forgot about ticket sales.<insert shrug smiley>
That leads to the next question.How many airports are serviced soley by Malaysia Airlines?For international flights exclusively?
This puzzle has quite the depth.

[dogmush]

Putin is re-establishing Imperial Russia and the USSR's old borders. That's kind of a big deal.

Why?

Do we have a compelling interest in eastern Europe or the icky-stans? And that's not counting the whole "self determination" thing we supposedly love. Many of the folks in Eastern Europe would vote to break up their country if allowed.

Mostly, I just look back on my professional experiences with some of the former SSR's militaries om Iraq. Like the Israeli government, these are not regimes we really want to support. Where as my experiences with Russians (all in the early 90's and not military) left me feeling like our cultures had a lot in common. So why are we picking one over the other? Because Putin doesn't like the gayz?

Actually, I kinda hope he does. Let Russia funk around with the Muslims in central Asia for a while.

[onions!]

"Without significant funding, he said the airline would not survive beyond a year"
From the BBC:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28370863

[lupinus]

Putin is re-establishing Imperial Russia and the USSR's old borders. That's kind of a big deal.

Primarily in ethnically/pro Russian areas.

Call me when he has designs on Poland/Germany/SomeSuchPlaceOrAlly. Till then I've developed an "I really don't care" approach to some Russian landscaping in their backyard. When it involves our allies, steps into our backyard, etc. that might be a different story. Till it's a compelling reason to be our problem, I'm content with us not making it our problem.

[TommyGunn]

Primarily in ethnically/pro Russian areas.

Call me when he has designs on Poland/Germany/SomeSuchPlaceOrAlly. Till then I've developed an "I really don't care" approach to some Russian landscaping in their backyard. When it involves our allies, steps into our backyard, etc. that might be a different story. Till it's a compelling reason to be our problem, I'm content with us not making it our problem.

People must have said the same of Hitler when all they thought he wanted was the Sudetenland.

I know, I know, no one wants go go to war against Putin.   
It's just the history repeating itself, both geopolitically and attitudinally that "gets" me.
I'm not supporting a war, especially with our current CinC; he'd just lose the war and apologize.....

[Boomhauer]

Primarily in ethnically/pro Russian areas.

Call me when he has designs on Poland/Germany/SomeSuchPlaceOrAlly. Till then I've developed an "I really don't care" approach to some Russian landscaping in their backyard. When it involves our allies, steps into our backyard, etc. that might be a different story. Till it's a compelling reason to be our problem, I'm content with us not making it our problem.

Let's also not forget the fact that while I have no objection to pimpslapping Russia by killing a bunch of "separatists" the way we go about wars these days is absolutely *expletive deleted* retarded. When you have politicians running wars as "limited conflicts" you cannot have victory, you must fight war like war if you intend to win it. The Russians on the other hand, don't have the idiotic ideas that our politicians have.

[Monkeyleg]

People must have said the same of Hitler when all they thought he wanted was the Sudetenland.

I know, I know, no one wants go go to war against Putin.   
It's just the history repeating itself, both geopolitically and attitudinally that "gets" me.
I'm not supporting a war, especially with our current CinC; he'd just lose the war and apologize.....

True enough, but for all of the harsh words issued by US presidents over the Russians misdeeds in their own backyard, we've never interfered. Not in Budapest in 1956, not in Chechnya in 1994. Most of the countries are of no strategic or economic value to the US, at least not to the extent of the US engaging Putin with anything more than words.

[TommyGunn]

True enough, but for all of the harsh words issued by US presidents over the Russians misdeeds in their own backyard, we've never interfered. Not in Budapest in 1956, not in Chechnya in 1994. Most of the countries are of no strategic or economic value to the US, at least not to the extent of the US engaging Putin with anything more than words.

 
We have a remarkably poor record of engaging in treaties and then ignoring them or promising to defend and then reneging.



Taiwan must be sleeping well these days ....