Author Topic: The libertarian case for national service  (Read 2311 times)

Balog

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The libertarian case for national service
« on: September 12, 2013, 12:25:50 PM »
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2013/09/09/pascal-emmanuel-gobry/libertarian-case-national-military-service

Interesting article. I'm not sure I agree, and it's probably not a truly "libertarian" view, but since I don't decide what I support based on the party line that doesn't terribly bother me. I do think his historical examples (as well as the Founders thoughts on the dangers of a large standing army) are compelling. I think it would only work if we returned to the concept of a (very, very) small core of volunteers who are lifers and everyone else just being ready to be called up if needed like the militia of the Revolution.
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vaskidmark

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 10:53:26 PM »
So you are suggesting we model our military on the armies of Russia and China (among others)?  You know, the armies composed of cannon fodder thrown at the enemy until said enemy runs out of ammo mowing our troops down or we physically overpower the enemy in spite of their technological superiority in arms.

Nations used to be able to fight wars that way, but recent changes in technology make the model less than optimal.  Israeal and Switzerland seem to be the exceptions that prove the point.

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If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Balog

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 11:28:06 PM »
No, I'm actually suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm not really advocating anything, just pointing out an interesting article. Not your best straw man attempt, read a few pages of csd in a cop thread then come at me again. ;)
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

vaskidmark

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 06:26:08 PM »
Quote
Switzerland’s history shows its freedom is intimately bound up with its centuries-long tradition of military service, just like Switzerland’s prosperity is linked to its low taxes. From the start, all able-bodied men were required not only to hold weapons but to take part in mandatory military exercises and serve in the military. And this is what made Switzerland impregnable. For in Medieval war, where battles could turn on a dime and pressed serfs would flee the field of battle at the first sign of defeat, war-trained free men were the most powerful soldiers. The might of the Duke of Burgundy, in the 15th century the richest and most powerful sovereign of Europe, was broken when he tried to invade Switzerland. His expensive mercenaries were crushed by free men defending their homeland.

Just as Switzerland is known for chocolate and yodeling, so too it is known that every man in the country is a trained soldier with a rifle. This has proved a formidable deterrent: even Hitler would not dare mess with that hornet’s nest. There can be little doubt that without military service, what we know as Switzerland would be provinces of less-free countries like France and Germany, just like the once-proud dominions of Savoy and Bavaria. Without military service, Switzerland would not be free.

Horse hockey.  While tanks and CAS are going to be more difficult in Switzerland, they will overpower an "army" composed merely of trained riflemen.  Throw in a few engineers who know how to block mountain passes and screw up city infrastructure and you might hold back the horde and possibly drive it out because of attrition.  But you are still not going to win in a straight-up force of arms contest.

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Up until late in the 20th century, it was seen as self-evident that freedom is ultimately secured by force of arms, and that private citizens’ duty to freedom was to be able to defend that freedom. Standing, professional armies were seen as the tool of tyrants, and people understood that a professional army that can repel a foreign invasion can also oppress a free, unarmed people, while an army of free men is not so easily led on an endeavor of oppression. Ultimately, men are not truly free if they must rely on some other group of people for their defense.

How about for a start we change tat date to the late 19th century/early 20th century?  Then we can discuss the difference between a standing army composed of citizens, as opposed to a mercenary army.  But the argument is still for a standing army composed of all/most branches of arms - specialists that cannot be expected to achieve specialization capability within a short term of enlistment.  For the record, in spite of the post-computer games drone pilots I do not see them as "specialists", and I wonder how many other parts of the military can develop "specialists" in the combat support areas with 90-day wonders as opposed to several (more than 2) years experiece.

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In the civil realm, this is well understood by libertarians. Libertarians understand perfectly that men have a natural right to self-defense, and that to entrust only the police with the means to keep order is to give the state a tool for tyranny. A free man must be able to take his defense in his own hands

This works well for the individual.  For a country there is a need to bring together a whole lot of folks who are going to need to provide for more than their individual defense.

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In ancient Athens, one reason why only free men could vote was because only they could afford the expensive armament of the hoplite. Free men were soldiers and soldiers were free men. Athenian freedom created the greatest flowering of civilization in the ancient world. Athenian citizen-soldiers, superior to kings’ slave armies, built and protected what was essentially the world’s first free-trade area, creating the prosperity that enabled Archimedes to invent, Sophocles to write, Phidias to sculpt and Socrates to midwife philosophy.

Medieval monarchs would never allow a conscript military, despite its superiority, as they understood that bearing arms was the privilege of the free man, and to let all men do it, as opposed to an aristocracy of warriors, would quickly undermine their power.

Ancient Athenians needed to mass together to do melee battle because there was essentially no other form of battle.  Medieval monarchs actually relied heavily on conscript armies to do the heavy dying, and used mercenaries for the specialized parts of warfare.  What the author most likely was trying for is the change in politics that comes about when the common man is allowed to keep arms both for personal defense and to wage war.  It's the same argument that we are currently engaged in discussing - should RKBA extend to stinger missles and hydrogen bombs?  The author's own words: "But they’re both wrong—and, nowadays, neither side would probably like to acknowledge what the Second Amendment really says. For in 18th century America, “the militia” (singular) did not refer to any specific organization. Instead it referred to the whole of able-bodied men, presumed ready and willing to bear arms in defense of the nation, as they did in the War of Independence.  Under the Founders-era American constitutional system, Congress would maintain a navy to protect trade, and raise an army when the need arose. This army would be powerful and easy to raise since it would come from the militia, that is to say, the community of citizen-soldiers."  Those citizen-soldiers brought their own cannon (pretty much the height of military technology at that time) with them.

Going back to the notion of part-time citizen-soldiers:
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Another one is the idea that military service means everyone will have to fight in a war. This is just untrue. In most militaries, frontline infantry are only a small minority of total military personnel, and those are usually picked among volunteers. A modern military requires an enormous apparatus for logistics and support, done by soldiers who are never shot at. Nowadays it’s quite possible, and even easy, to spend an entire military career without ever seeing battle. At the height of the Vietnam War, there were eight support soldiers for each frontline soldier. Even in Israel, a country which is in a perpetual state of low-level warfare, only a minority of conscripts ever see battle. For most people, military service merely involves wearing ugly green and running around in the muck while a guy yells at you.

It is probably easier to train the guys at the pointy end of the stick than the guys at the far end of the blunt end.  In 13 weeks I was about as trained as the USMC could make me to start the OJT part of going to exotic lands, meeting new and different people, and killing them.  OTOH, there was another 14 months of training before I was considered minimally trained to troubleshoot and repair certain cryptographic machinery.  I've never been sure why, but I was also sent for 2 months to learn how to load a LST backwards without tipping it over amd making sure it had at least enough fuel to get to the invasion beachead.  It took only 3 days to train me how to wade into a mob and quell them - and we spent at least as much time training on getting on and off helicopters and trucks as we did on hitting people up side the head and putting handcuffs (well, OK, flex-cuffs) on them.

There have been drastic changes in dogface soldiery since then.  Front line troops today do more communicating, use lasers and IR and other stuff that in my day were considered for-specialists-only gear.  But none of that is going to be possible with citizen-soldiers who drop the plough, pick up the musket, and report as ready for combat.

Which brings me back to my point - that without specialists that can only be developed by extended service in a standing army you are going to end up throwing bodies at the enemy until the enemy runs out of ammo, other supplies, or soldiers to kill you massed horde.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Scout26

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2013, 02:55:17 AM »
I'll just put in my two cents:

1)  Last I checked the Swiss still had 6 Armor (Panzers, Leopards IIRC), along with M109's for SP Artillery and M113's to haul the grunts around.   Ahhh, here's the list:
Quote
Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV)
    Leopard 87 - Leopard 2A4 main battle tank (200 in service)
    M113 armored personnel carrier (600 in service)
    APC 2000 – variant of CV9030 infantry fighting vehicle (200 in service)
    APC 93 – variant of Piranha II 8×8 wheeled APC (500 in service)
    Reconnaissance vehicles 93, 93/97 – variants of Eagle I-II armoured patrol vehicle (300 in service)
    M109 self-propelled howitzer (200 in service)
    Piranha TOW – anti-tank variant of the Piranha I 6×6 (100 in service)

2)  We all still have a duty to our fellow countrymen.  Now days that usually consists of nothing more than the occasional summons for Jury Duty.   However back when this county was founded that usually turning out on the green for a least a couple hours each week to drill with the militia.  Was that way up until well after the civil war.   Maybe it's something we need to go back to.  Works pretty well in the past and in other countries.

Expanding on that theme.  Two choices when you turn 18/graduate high school.  Community Service (e.g. Germans take care of the elderly in nursing homes for three years) or Military (Germans only had to do two years in the Bundeswehr).  Only in this case make it the roughly 9 weeks of basic and AIT only (Yes you can choose your MOS, from what unit have available where you live*), then you go back to your home/unit.  One weekend a month and two in the summer for X years, subject to recall until age Y.  If you want to stay longer then the X years, by all means, please do.  Pay starts after Z years (somewhere before the end of X years, but maybe not the first few, you do get full pay for Basic and AIT).  All years count for retirement at 30 years (50% of finally militia pay same as NG/Reserves).  You'd be the Militia, subject to local (not Washington) control.  Officers selected by the men (and women, yes this means everybody) and the local .gov, then sent to schools.

Community Service - means Old Folks Homes, Bedpans, Depends, Oatmeal.   2 Years, small stipend, like just enough for personal hygiene items and a monthly Big Gulp.  Room and Board provided by (at) the Nursing Home. (The "volunteers" would either all Males or all Females, no Coed nursing homes).   You will learn to deal with people.  Fail at taking care of oldsters and you go straight to Parris Island or Ft. Leonard Wood.  Not Great Lakes or Lackland.  Suck it up Princess and pick your poison.



*And yes they will be allowed to be overstrength on their MTOE (say by 150%).  Having three radio geeks when the MTOE calls for one is okay, having 150 Eleven Bang-Bangs when the MTOE calls for 80, is even better.   =D  A unit short an MOS and your get slotted (and AIT'd) into that MOS, unless you can make a trade. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2013, 11:09:09 PM »
I served in Vietnam and, if memory serves, we still had a draft back then. Back then we also had (at least in the Army) two parallel pay grade tracks for enlisted (and drafted) personnel. NCOs (non-commissioned officers) were Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class, Master Sergeants, etc. They were command track, and it would take more than a 2-year term (which is what draftees served) to develop a decent NCO.

Then there were the rest of us. The Army still has, I believe, the Specialist 4 classification, but today when you get beyond E-4 you become a sergeant. In MY Army, the specialist classification ran all the way up to Spec 7 E7.

There are a lot of jobs in the Army that don't require years of training to master. I guess in today's Army some of these jobs have already been farmed out to well-connected companies global subcontractors like Haliburton, but the Army still has motor pools and such like. It doesn't take a gearhead long to figure out that the diesel engine in a Bradley is still a diesel engine. Rotating draftees through positions like that wouldn't cripple the service.
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Levant

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 12:37:03 AM »
I think the libertarian rejects the idea of a standing army altogether rather than agrees or disagrees with serving in one.
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HankB

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 01:21:37 PM »
The Swiss model makes a great deal of sense for a relatively small country that isn't irrationally devoted to "diversity and multiculturalism" and which eschews most international intervention. Even a modern army would have a very rough time invading and holding a mountainous modern country with a unified populace where almost every man was armed; losses would greatly outweigh the gains . . . which is probably what discouraged Hitler.

But turning to the USA, I shudder to think of what our current politicians would do if they had around 4 million new conscripts every year turning 18, every one of which was subject to compulsory "military or community service."
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Scout26

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 08:29:52 PM »
The Swiss model makes a great deal of sense for a relatively small country that isn't irrationally devoted to "diversity and multiculturalism" and which eschews most international intervention. Even a modern army would have a very rough time invading and holding a mountainous modern country with a unified populace where almost every man was armed; losses would greatly outweigh the gains . . . which is probably what discouraged Hitler.

But turning to the USA, I shudder to think of what our current politicians would do if they had around 4 million new conscripts every year turning 18, every one of which was subject to compulsory "military or community service."

They wouldn't be put in the "standing" army, but only in the state militias/nursing homes.   ;)
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

HankB

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 08:47:00 AM »
They wouldn't be put in the "standing" army, but only in the state militias/nursing homes.   ;)

What makes you think that if "compulsory service" were to be imposed by the Feds in the USA it would be limited to state militias and nursing homes? I can see ALL KINDS of mischief . . . remember, they'd have MILLIONS of new warm bodies on tap every year.

* Unarmed case workers detailed to clean streets in lovely places like Detroit or East St. Louis . . . places where politicians have recently purchased property.
* Laborers sent into wilderness areas to remove roads and trails, effectively cutting them off to hunters and fishermen.
* A domestic police force to control dissidents. (Obama has talked about this.)
* Overseas contingency operations - such as providing (unarmed) labor to build roads and bridges in the Middle East and elsewhere.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:14:29 PM by HankB »
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 09:53:11 AM »
I don't think Hitler was afraid to attack the Swiss. Why would he want to kill his bankers?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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Scout26

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 03:38:38 PM »
I don't think Hitler was afraid to attack the Swiss. Why would he want to kill his bankers?

Precisely  ;)


What makes you think that if "compulsory service" were to be imposed by the Feds in the USA it would be limited to state militias and nursing homes? I can see ALL KINDS of mischief . . . remember, they'd have MILLIONS of new warm bodies on tap every year.

* Unarmed case workers detailed to clean streets in lovely places like Detroit or East St. Louis . . . places where politicians have recently purchased property.
* Laborers sent into wilderness areas to remove roads and trails, effectively cutting them off to hunters and fishermen.
* A domestic police force to control dissidents. (Obama has talked about this.)
* Overseas contingency operations - such as providing (unarmed) labor to build roads and bridges in the Middle East and elsewhere.

It's not "National Service"  it's local service.  The only times the feds have control is during initial training, but those folks in that training can't be "Federalized"  (There will still be the Regular Army and the Reserves (Navy, Marines, AF if you want to Volunteer for one of those instead).  
1.  Only if the Governor orders because they are under control of the states.  However, fixing up the politicians place of residence might draw the ire of thelocal press.
2.  Again local control.  Some times as leaders one has to use Malicious Obedience and again, the locals (and generally long term residents) are the ones in  charge of said units.  
3.  LOCAL CONTROL, not ObamaCorps or ClintonCorps.  Might be a good chance it's the militia that will be the dissidents.  Use limited to local area (say County or Township) unless assisting (not policing) after a natural disaster.
4.  Nope, can't leave the county with the governor signing off and prohibited from leaving the state. (natural disaster in adjoining neighboring state not withstanding. E.G.  If Hammond, IN had a volcano, then Calumet City, IL could assist with disaster relief.)

Drill one weekend a month on everything the NG trains for now.  NG joins the Reserves and this becomes the new NG a real militia that is Non-Deployable and cannot be federalized.   If the US.gov thinks they need more reserves then make a bigger Reserve Force.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:00:41 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

roo_ster

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Re: The libertarian case for national service
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 05:08:30 PM »
I would remind vaskidmark and others who think a bunch of men with small arms and lacking the the full panoply of modern combat arms & support can not defeat a force so arrayed:
* Vietnam (x2: French & USA)
* Iraq (Where are our hard-won and expensively built bases, again?)
* Afghanistan (How long do we think the central gov't will last?)

Now, think of similar fights right here...where the fighters with the big guns and CAS must live amongst their enemies.  How many homes of ragtag bands of Red Dawners have to be get some CAS or drone delivered HE before the Red Dawners decide to return the favor?  How would that effect the morale of the regular units?  The NG & reserves? 

Things would get ugly PDQ.  Spanish Civil War ugly.  Narcotraficante ugly.  So ugly folks on either side of the divide best think twice & thrice before going JBT Uber Alles or Wolverines! on a whim.

Regards,

roo_ster

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