Author Topic: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event  (Read 19035 times)

freakazoid

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2008, 07:32:44 AM »
Interesting. Ah the things you learn on APS, Cheesy

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and EXACTLY the same as the "Nuclear WInter" fraud

What do you mean by that?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

richyoung

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 11:26:53 AM »
Interesting. Ah the things you learn on APS, Cheesy

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and EXACTLY the same as the "Nuclear WInter" fraud

What do you mean by that?

"Nuclear Winter" was the "better Red than dead"  scenario that trendy leftist scientists tried to use to "scientifically" oppose Reagan's Cold War defense and foriegn policies.  It was based on the same type of climate models, and posited that if a full-out nuclear exchange occured, it would put so much dust and soot into the atmosphere that the whole earth would freeze and life would end - at least human life.  The descendants of those same flawed climate models that were one used to warn of catastrophic cooliing, (OH TEH NOES!  We gonna freeze cause of that cowboy Reagan!) are now used to warn of cataclysmic warming,   (OH TEH NOES!  We all gonna burn up cause of that cowboy Bush II!).  In between they were used in the Great Ozone Hole Swindle, (OH TEH NOES!  We all gonna get skin cancer cause of that cowboy Bush I!).

National Center for Atmospheric Research (NOAA) climate researcher and global warming action promoter, Steven Schneider:

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We have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.


Hmm.  Doesn;t sound like the scientific method the way they taught it to ME....


Additionally, it goes a long way to explaining why Steve McIntyre gets this response when he requests the data he needs to try to replicate certain climate studies (and here):

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    We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it. There is IPR to consider.

Publishing your data, especially in a data intensive field like climate research, is not only necessary for anyone to judge the merits of the reseach, but failure to do so also makes the term "peer reviewed" meaningless.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

MechAg94

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 11:36:31 AM »
There was also the myth that we had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world several times over.  I heard that was just quoted from some activist who made it up and it got repeated a bunch.  I had heard someone actually did the study and showed that the background radiation wouldn't even go up on average much.  Certainly we could devastate some areas or wipe out a couple countries, but not the whole world.  Since the US and others have detonates hundreds of nukes in above ground testing, I tend to disbelieve the myth.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

freakazoid

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2008, 06:52:09 AM »
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"Nuclear Winter" was the "better Red than dead"...

I knew what nuclear winter was just not what you meant by the fraud part. I don't see why it would be a fraud when it is one of the things that is believed to of killed off the dinosaurs, giant asteroid crashed sending a lot of dirt into the air blocking out the sun keeping the light from reaching earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

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Since the US and others have detonates hundreds of nukes in above ground testing, I tend to disbelieve the myth.

Except the ones detonated back then don't even compare to the ones we have now.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Regolith

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »
Except the ones detonated back then don't even compare to the ones we have now.

No.  We tested the full strength of almost every nuke we produced.  The ban on testing began at around the same time as the ban on production.  The largest of our tests were around 15 megatons, with our largest nukes not being much more than that (around 25 megatons).

The Soviets tested one that yielded 50 megatons, though it theoretically could have yielded 100 mt if the design were tweaked (they didn't test the full strength due to fallout concerns). However, they only ever made one, and they blew it up.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

freakazoid

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2008, 09:08:57 PM »
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However, they only ever made one, and they blew it up.

They only made one nuke?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

De Selby

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2008, 09:12:41 PM »
Seems like most of the opposition to the global warming research is political in nature. 

I'd think asking a scientist who specializes in studying the climate would be the appropriate way to go about debating this.  Does anyone know what climate specialists generally think?  Or meteorologists, or whatever the specialty is for this subject?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2008, 02:56:21 AM »
Seems like most of the opposition to the global warming research is political in nature. 

I'd think asking a scientist who specializes in studying the climate would be the appropriate way to go about debating this.  Does anyone know what climate specialists generally think?  Or meteorologists, or whatever the specialty is for this subject?



the one that raised me  who worked on developing the much touted models for 35 years of working for uncle sam. laughs when you bring up global warming. as do all his old timer friends and colleagues
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

onebigelf

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2008, 08:19:30 AM »
It's never been 'because we said so'. The point is that now the consensus is pretty darn impressive, the debate isn't over, the theory isn't proven (what scientific theory ever is I ask you?) but the blocks that make up the wall are well enough stuck together, that short of some devastating blow, most are convinced that our understanding is good enough to warrant action. Scientists in relevant disciplines this is.

The science is out there, go read it. I can recommend Weart's 'The Discovery of Global Warming', which puts the scientific understanding in the context of more than 100 years of scientific research, theory, refinement of theory, experiment, refinement of theory etc. It's even readable and possibly available on line. Weart also gets a bit into the philosophy of science - as in what a theory is.



As an engineer one of the things I learned about the scientific principle is that it takes a body of evidence to prove a theory and one contradictory fact to disprove one.  Global warming?  Thermal photography shows corresponding percentage temperature increases on Mars and Venus.  Are we exporting greenhouse gases to other planets?  One of the "proofs" of global warming is that arctic snow fields have receded to expose trees that carbon date PROVES are 4000 yrs old, froxen in the snow all this time.  Really?  So 4000 yrs ago it was warm enough there for the trees to grow in the first place?  Did the Mesopotamians have a secret industrialized society we've somehow missed all evidence of?  SUC's? (Sport Utility Chariots)   A British study released earlier this some showed that temperatures are actually FALLING over the last few years.  That the data from those years has either been misinterpreted by the global warming crowd or deliberately falsified.  Global warming is a farce. Complete and utter crap.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

John

richyoung

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2008, 10:16:57 AM »
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"Nuclear Winter" was the "better Red than dead"...

I knew what nuclear winter was just not what you meant by the fraud part. I don't see why it would be a fraud when it is one of the things that is believed to of killed off the dinosaurs, giant asteroid crashed sending a lot of dirt into the air blocking out the sun keeping the light from reaching earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

A sizeable comet or asteroid impact is many, MANY times more powerful than all our nuclear warheads put together.  For example, the "dinosaur killer impact" was estimated at the equivalent of 10,000,000 megatons.  Thats 10 to the eight power.  The most powerful nukes ever designed were 50 megatons, and as noted, none were actually built.  A typical warhead or bomb is 5 to 8 megatons.  Even if they were 10 megatons each, and there were 10,000 on each side, and you could get them to all go off in the same space, you would still be WAY SHORT of the dinosaur extinction event power.

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Since the US and others have detonates hundreds of nukes in above ground testing, I tend to disbelieve the myth.

Except the ones detonated back then don't even compare to the ones we have now.

Actually, our warheads are SMALLER in yield now.  Due to increased missle accuracy, they don't have to be as big to ensure destroying the target.  Of course, Russia has always been a little behind the curve on this, hence their design of the 50 meggie.

We sent scientists into Kuwait to examine the smoke from the burning oil wells - heres their take on nuclear winter....

"The scientific findings
Radke: The climatic worries about the fires in Kuwait were all plausible, based on what we knew at the time. Several of the key assumptions associated with that were proven to be incorrect by our expedition, and I've long characterized our expedition as a triumph of the experimental method. We went and directly tested several aspects of the nuclear winter hypotheses and found them to be not very robust!"


"Not very robust" is science speak for "horse pucky!"...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

De Selby

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2008, 12:22:44 PM »
Again, what is the consensus position amongst climate specialists on this issue? That would be the relevant information from a scientific perspective.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2008, 04:39:44 PM »
Looking at the debate over the last couple of years, the consensus is that there is no consensus. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2008, 04:56:26 PM »
Looking at the debate over the last couple of years, the consensus is that there is no consensus. 


Is it just that for political reasons, the public won't accept the consensus of climate specialists, or is this view that there is no consensus position shared by the scientists who study the problem as well?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Regolith

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2008, 05:38:51 PM »
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However, they only ever made one, and they blew it up.

They only made one nuke?

They only made one that big.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

freakazoid

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2008, 01:37:55 AM »
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They only made one that big.

Oh, and they blew it up. ...



You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

Cheesy
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Tallpine

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2008, 05:25:45 AM »
Is this cold weather that we're having in Montana right now all part of the "cycle" Huh?

 rolleyes
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Racehorse

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2008, 06:48:02 AM »
Looking at the debate over the last couple of years, the consensus is that there is no consensus. 


Is it just that for political reasons, the public won't accept the consensus of climate specialists, or is this view that there is no consensus position shared by the scientists who study the problem as well?

I've had the same question on this for a while. What do most climatologists (not random scientists whose specialty may be cellular biology) actually believe based on the evidence? I've never been able to find an answer, so if someone knows, I would love to hear.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2008, 07:41:41 AM »
My big problem with the global warming debate has to do with the very nature of consensus itself.  Science is not a discipline where truth is sought through majority voting.  Truth in science is arrived at through experimentation, and demonstrable, repeatable, verifiable results.

If solid scientific evidence existed, there wouldn't be a consensus, there's be a universal, un-questioned agreement.  There's no need for consensus nonsense when it comes to F=MA or PV=nRT.  Those are testable and verifiable, and they're always shown to be correct.

If F=MA or PV=nRT had ever been wrong, even just once or twice, then nobody would believe them.  Such is the rigorous nature of real honest-to-God science.  Yet somehow those rigorous standards are thrown out the window when it comes to climate modeling forecasts. 

Climate models over the past few decades have generally been more wrong than right.  Yet somehow we're expected to believe they're reliable this time, all in the name of "science".  Sorry, that isn't science.  That's wishful thinking on the part of people who don't have much real science behind their argument.

richyoung

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2008, 07:51:53 AM »
Again, what is the consensus position amongst climate specialists on this issue? That would be the relevant information from a scientific perspective.



Science doesn;t work by "consensus" - at one time the "consensus" was that radio waves traveled through "ether", life "spontaneously generated" in manure, "bad air" caused malaria, Jewish witchcraft caused the plauge, the speed of sound was an unpentrable barrier, ...  need I go on?
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Desertdog

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2008, 08:06:05 AM »
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Science doesn;t work by "consensus" - at one time the "consensus" was that radio waves traveled through "ether", life "spontaneously generated" in manure, "bad air" caused malaria, Jewish witchcraft caused the plauge, the speed of sound was an unpentrable barrier, ...  need I go on?
Why not.  The earth is flat and if you go too far you will fall off the edge.  The sun revolves around the earth. 

Racehorse

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2008, 08:17:47 AM »
I'm not curious about the consensus of climatologists because I believe consensus determines the science or what is fact. I'm curious about the consensus (again, of real climatologists) because I don't have the time or resources to study the mountains of evidence for myself. They are the experts on the subject.

I think global warming a basically a hoax with stronger origins in politics than in science, but I haven't seen the actual data myself. If a majority of climate experts believed global climate change to be a reality, I'd be less skeptical, but I haven't seen that actually documented anywhere. All I've seen is a lot of talk of consensus by those with a political agenda.

Iain

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2008, 08:47:02 AM »
My big problem with the global warming debate has to do with the very nature of consensus itself.  Science is not a discipline where truth is sought through majority voting.  Truth in science is arrived at through experimentation, and demonstrable, repeatable, verifiable results.

If solid scientific evidence existed, there wouldn't be a consensus, there's be a universal, un-questioned agreement. 

Wasn't going to bother with the consensus debate because it is largely nonsense, but I feel I have to respond to this.

There definitely are scientific questions that have been resolved - is the earth flat? If not what is the diameter of the earth? Does the earth revolve around the sun? How far are we from the sun? And so on.

But then there are the difficult questions - questions that gave rise to quantum physics. And there are the questions along the way to scientific 'proofs' - the answers to them represent the best knowledge we have at this time. I've often seen science referred to as peering through the mist dimly at obscure shapes - finding out what those shapes are, or at least what we think they are, and moving on to the next shape and trying to see what that one is and how it relates to the first one.

Very few questions in science these days are of the nature that most insist science is. We build things like the LHC to try and get more data to test a hypothesis and see if it stands up. If it does, it isn't proven, it just didn't fail. The next experiment we devise may completely destroy the hypothesis, or may cause it to be altered somewhat.

The consensus on climate science amongst climatologists who are active and publishing (see Naomi Oreskes - Beyond the Ivory Tower) is relatively clear for those that have eyes to see. Most who follow the debate at all can name the handful who do not largely agree with the general premise, those names crop up again and again. That's not to say they are wrong, but they are a minority.

The consensus position is not about voting for truth - it is about establishing who is doing what and who sees what when peering through the mist at those dim shapes, whose hypothesis is still valid after it has been checked and re-checked by hundreds of others, what data is good and what is bad. At the moment those guys have some pretty good ideas about what they are seeing, I've heard it said that the degree of confidence in what they understand is greater than most physicists would express about their confidence in General Relativity. GR is the best fit for what we know at present, and the same is true of the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

AGW and evolution are both attacked as mere theories by those who either don't or won't understand that aside from a few certain facts about the universe, all science is based upon theories that try and express what we know about what we have seen. A theory has data behind it, a lot of data that hasn't falsified it. They are open to demolition to falsification, but that usually comes from within the field, not from without, because usually the expert knowledge is within the field - so that is why consensus is meaningful but not absolute, a decent poll but not an authoritative vote. Ignore it and dismiss it if you will, as I'm sure the internet will, because of course the internet is where all the experts are, and some are calling scientists hoaxers whilst admitting they've never looked at the data.

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To scientists, a theory is extremely well supported, has survived hundreds of tests and potential falsifications, and is accepted as a valid explanation of the world. But Reagan is confusing that meaning with the everyday meaning of theory as a "wild hare-brained scheme"...Science is always about challenging hypotheses and testing them and never reaches a point where a scientific idea is "believed" or is "infallible"...

...We still do not have a full understanding of the mechanism by which gravity works {actually see "Intelligent Falling" in the Onion - Iain], but that does not change the fact that objects fall to the ground.
- Prothero "What the fossils say and why it matters"

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In reality, after a scientist publishes a paper with an idea or observation, other scientists usually look upon it with justifiable suspicion. Many papers, perhaps most of them, harbor misconceptions or plain errors. After all, research (by definition) operates past the edge of the known. People are peering through fog at a faint shape, never seen before. Every sighting must be checked and confirmed. Scientists find confirmation of an idea all the more convincing when it comes in from the side, using some entirely different type of observation or line of thought. Such connections among different realms are especially common in a science like geophysics, whose subject is intrinsically complex. Scientists may start with something they learned about the smoke from volcanoes, put it alongside telescopic observations of Venus, notice the chemistry of smog in Los Angeles, and plug it all into a computer calculation about clouds. You cannot point to a single observation or model that convinced everyone about anything.
- Weart, "Discovery of Global Warming"
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Racehorse

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2008, 10:11:05 AM »

The consensus on climate science amongst climatologists who are active and publishing (see Naomi Oreskes - Beyond the Ivory Tower) is relatively clear for those that have eyes to see. Most who follow the debate at all can name the handful who do not largely agree with the general premise, those names crop up again and again. That's not to say they are wrong, but they are a minority.

Thanks for that source. That's the first time I've seen anything well documented about the consensus. Admittedly, I've not cared enough to do much research in the past.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2008, 10:48:25 AM »
It's never been 'because we said so'. The point is that now the consensus is pretty darn impressive, the debate isn't over, the theory isn't proven

That is one of the major points As far as the global warming advocates are concerned here is no room for debate. Anyone who disagrees should be discredited and any science/weather related credentials revoked and probably burned at the stake for heresy.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Iain

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Re: Decrease in sea ice a 'cyclical' event
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2008, 10:54:44 AM »
It's never been 'because we said so'. The point is that now the consensus is pretty darn impressive, the debate isn't over, the theory isn't proven

That is one of the major points As far as the global warming advocates are concerned here is no room for debate. Anyone who disagrees should be discredited and any science/weather related credentials revoked and probably burned at the stake for heresy.

If you look at my post a couple up (the overly long one that should just have been restricted to those two quotes) you'll see that I say the debate isn't over and the theory isn't proven because no theory ever really is, so the 'debate', in terms of scientific research, never ends.

Also, don't mistake media representation and the rantings of internet warriors  and a few fringe outliers for the position of most scientists in terms of their view of those who disagree. The term 'septic' often does get applied to the persistently annoying (see Christopher Monckton), but that's different from someone out there doing proper research testing the theory. That's welcomed, that's the norm.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also