Author Topic: Silver?  (Read 21927 times)

280plus

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Silver?
« on: October 01, 2008, 03:07:29 AM »
Given all the other crap going on, why would silver be trending down as well? Does this signify a strengthening of the dollar? Juust curious.  grin
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Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 04:09:06 AM »
Same reason as oil. Commodity.

What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.

You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.

Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11" cheesy

I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why. Wink

280plus

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 04:49:59 AM »
OMG!!!  cheesy

Hmmm, wonder what copper is doing...

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Nick1911

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2008, 04:52:02 AM »
Same reason as oil. Commodity.

What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.

You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.

Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11" cheesy

I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why. Wink

That's interesting.  So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?

280plus

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 04:54:28 AM »
There we go. Guess I coulda figured that!  laugh

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24429607-5005200,00.html

October 01, 2008
COPPER fell to an 18-month low before paring losses amid recession fears a day after the US Congress voted down a bailout plan.

Talk that Congress may reach some kind of deal by the end of the week and speculation that central banks could slash interest rates eased risk aversion.

US stocks rebounded overnight after Wall Streets Dow index in the previous session suffered its biggest one-day points decline.

Copper for delivery in three months on the London Metal Exchange sank to $US6170 per tonne, its lowest level since March 2007, before closing at $US6360, down $US80 from the previous session's close.

In New York, copper for December delivery shed US2.75 cents to finish at $US2.8790 a pound on the New York Mercantile Exchange's COMEX division. Earlier, it fell as far as $US2.7650, its lowest price point since late March 2007.

Other base metals also tumbled. Aluminium dropped to an eight-month low of $US2405 per tonne and nickel fell to $US15,588, its lowest level since April 2006.

People see a continuous deterioration in the economic outlook, analyst Gayle Berry at Barclays Capital said.

Industrial raw materials have taken a drubbing since touching record highs mid-year. Copper prices were off by 30 per cent since hitting records of $US8940 per tonne in London and $US4.27 a pound in New York.

The declines have accelerated in the past few days.

The sharp pull-back in prices suggested the market was already discounting a significant reduction in demand for the red metal, analysts said.

If we go into a global recession and it impacts worldwide demand for copper significantly, prices will probably continue to adjust lower, said David Rinehimer, director of Citi Futures Perspective in New York.

As the credit crisis spreads to European banks, metals markets are bracing for a weak second half, with even top global metal consumer China expected to slow down.

The question mark is what is the Chinese economy going to look like for the rest of this year? said Thys Terblanche, director and global head of mining and metals at Standard Bank.

We continue to be carefully optimistic ... but China is a key driver.

Over the past year, as the credit crisis escalated, the bull story for commodities remained intact, with demand from emerging countries -- mainly China -- taking up the slack as the United States and Europe slowed down.

But China's refined copper imports dropped 0.02 per cent in August and demand for copper grew at 4.8 per cent in the first eight months of the year, far below the 36 per cent surge in 2007.

Chinese factories are reportedly closing as consumer demand fails and industrialists attempt to protect assets, analyst John Meyer at Fairfax said in a research note.

The Shanghai Futures Exchange will be shut this week for National Day holidays.

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280plus

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 04:57:09 AM »
But doesn't this all mean the dollar has grown stronger? After all, you can buy more with it now.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 05:02:27 AM »
Same reason as oil. Commodity.

What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.

You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.

Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11" cheesy

I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why. Wink

That's interesting.  So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?

It's not "artificial market shortages", it's just good business.

The noname mints are free to make as many bars as they want. They do the same, pretty much.

Would you make a whole lot of a product if you weren't making money on it? Casting metals costs money! Or would you scale back production until the price went up and made it worth your while?

Right now, it's a lot more profitable to just produce silver as bulk containers of silver shot for industrial and jewelry use. And silver producers scaled back every operation from refineries to mining when the film industry, one of the biggest consumers, all but went away in favor of digital.

Nick1911

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 05:12:00 AM »
Same reason as oil. Commodity.

What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.

You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.

Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11" cheesy

I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why. Wink

That's interesting.  So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?

It's not "artificial market shortages", it's just good business.

The noname mints are free to make as many bars as they want. They do the same, pretty much.

Would you make a whole lot of a product if you weren't making money on it? Casting metals costs money! Or would you scale back production until the price went up and made it worth your while?

Right now, it's a lot more profitable to just produce silver as bulk containers of silver shot for industrial and jewelry use. And silver producers scaled back every operation from refineries to mining when the film industry, one of the biggest consumers, all but went away in favor of digital.

The question stands.  Does this have a significant effect on the price of minted silver?

If I were to chart the spot price of silver and the cost of minted silver, would they track evenly?  Or would we see a larger difference between the two as the price drops?

AJ Dual

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 05:14:05 AM »
OMG!!!  cheesy

Hmmm, wonder what copper is doing...



What has copper been doing lately? Frying the occasional skell and tweaker&


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280plus

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 05:31:23 AM »
  Oh yea, that's right! laugh
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Re: Silver?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 06:15:03 AM »
Silver is not generally mined for, silver is a by product of the gold mining industry.  The silver recovered is almost 100% pure profit.  Here is a good link to the markets:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

Gold is fluctuating by about $100 right now and silver fluctuating by $2 or $3 dollars, it was up to about $18 at one point.
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oldfart

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 07:02:39 AM »
I have some money invested in silver so I try to keep up on the market.  Last March the spot price went over $21 and last night it closed at $12.06.

Oh well, I bought it several years ago at about $6.  I can't complain.... yet!

Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 07:08:49 AM »
I have some money invested in silver so I try to keep up on the market.  Last March the spot price went over $21 and last night it closed at $12.06.

Oh well, I bought it several years ago at about $6.  I can't complain.... yet!

You should have sold it at the peak. That's when I unloaded all I had left. People were paying a premium of about $250 for COMEX 10oz bars at that point. I do not think we'll ever see a Hunt Bros scenario, that was a historic one-time fluke and investors know better now.

Same with the palladium when it spiked up above 600 briefly. Tossed out the Maple Leaves, now it's back down to nearly $200 on the fall of demand from the auto industry and won't go anywhere unless there's a sudden interest in fuel cells, likely.

The problem with metals is that aside from rare spikes, they can and often do stay loooooow for even decades at a time. As commodities fall now, it's likely to go down and stay down for years to come, I'd think.

longeyes

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2008, 07:33:46 AM »
The reason for investing a portion of your assets in precious metals hasn't changed.  They remain a hedge against hyper-inflation, and I'll be very surprised if we don't see that in the times ahead.  The issue is in which form to hold them.  That can be tricky.  I consider dips in the market to be buying opportunities.

That doesn't mean you should have everything in gold, silver, or other commodities or expect quick trading profits.  They are an insurance policy, no more, a way of preserving capital, not making huge speculative profits.  Of course like any investment vehicle they imply a market; if things get bad enough the ability to buy and sell will be...complicated.

If precious metals go nowhere, it will probably be because we in a serious depression and food and ammunition will be the barter of choice.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 09:10:31 AM »
Of course like any investment vehicle they imply a market; if things get bad enough the ability to buy and sell will be...complicated.

If things ever got that bad, what would be traded would be goods and services that you can eat and use. Tools, food, ammunition, gasoline, all that.

The reaction to someone offering a shiny Eagle would be one of two things, both of which would frustrate the "insurance" sort.

1. That's probably fake, I saw some at a flea market a long time ago. (There's lots of fake ones).
2. That says one dollar on it, so you get a dollar's worth.

Really, what possible reason would someone have to believe that the silver someone they don't know is offering them for their hard-to-get items is real? Or that it's useful for anything?

I'll give you an example. I don't know if you heard of the "liberty dollars" the Paul sorts were trying to pass off as real currency, but they were unassayed ostensibly-1oz coins that had Paul on them, and said "$20", "United States of America", and "Twenty Dollars". The mint making them encouraged people to offer them to merchants as currency...silver was $15 an ounce at the time.

Reaction? Some people here apparently called the cops. And the mint, for encouraging fraud and producing those coins without any "not legal tender/non-negotiable" on them, was raided by the feds, that's a quite serious law to break.

If it ever got that bad that dollars did an Argentina, you'd have a lot more to worry about than what your money was worth.


Fake Eagle from China, a la any flea market. This is what merchants would assume yours was.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2008, 09:19:45 AM »
If things got "that bad", I don't think gold or silver would be worth anything at all.  I think there's a very good chance the government would confiscate all of the gold, just like they did last time.  Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?

I don't see much wisdom in investing in metals.  They are speculators' investments only.  If you're worried about inflation, there are better investments.  Somehow the goldbugs seem to believe that metals are the only assets that rise in price under inflation.  Huh?  Under inflation, virtually all items tend to rise in price.  Might as well own something that returns dividends or interest in addition to just rising in price.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 09:23:11 AM »
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?


You'd be surprised.

Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 09:29:16 AM »
BTW, regarding fakes, there are now fake US Double Eagles, South African Krugerrands and every other gold coin coming out of China, complete with fake slab, condition markings, and authenticity hologram. A lot are showing up on eBay. And, of course, fake Credit Suisse bars.

Unless they're a trained assayer, jeweler and/or coin numismatist with an acid test kit, no merchant is going to take your precious metals in a crisis situation if they're a smart merchant. They're going to rightly assume that a stranger is offering them a fake.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2008, 09:34:45 AM »
And this existed in every known era of human history, starting AT LEAST with the late Roman Empire.

Your point is?
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K Frame

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2008, 09:36:30 AM »
the point is that gold is not the universal "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT AND ZOMBIES ARE GOING TO EAT MY BRAINS SO I NEED GOLD BARS TO BUY KRYPTONITE TO KILL THE ZOMBIES!" currency every one just assumes it to be.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 09:37:32 AM »
Neither is anything else.

But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 09:41:04 AM »
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?


You'd be surprised.

Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
My understanding is that during the early years of Soviet Russia, people tried to sell all sorts of luxury goods (furs, gold and jewels, silver candlesticks or serving pieces, etc) in makeshift markets.  Those goods wouldn't fetch the price of a few meals or a single set of shoes.

Am I mistaken?

Manedwolf

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 09:41:32 AM »
Neither is anything else.

But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.

No.

Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.

Gewehr98

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 09:42:06 AM »
Quote
the point is that gold is not the universal "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT AND ZOMBIES ARE GOING TO EAT MY BRAINS SO I NEED GOLD BARS TO BUY KRYPTONITE TO KILL THE ZOMBIES!" currency every one just assumes it to be.

It's not?

Sheeit.

Hey- ZOMG, TEOTWAWKI means my nearky 30K rounds of ammo near the reloading bench are worth more than gold?  OMFG, I'm sitting on a veritable goldmine! I'll be the king of my neighborhood, woo-hoo!  Wait a second, how'd that guy down the street get a beltfed?

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Silver?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 09:43:43 AM »
Neither is anything else.

But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.

No.

Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.

Again, gold worked in RL SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios.

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