Author Topic: Whodathunkit?  (Read 6577 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Whodathunkit?
« on: May 03, 2011, 12:47:13 AM »
Gee, go figure.  A "social worker" sues because she can't push a shopping cart successfully.

http://www.courant.com/community/windham/hc-willimantic-kohls-verdict-0430-2-20110429,0,1386317.story

I guess either stores will get rid of shopping carts altogether (who the $#@^ uses a shopping cart at Kohl's?  Srsly?), or we'll all have to read a shopping cart operator's manual and sign a liability release after presenting proof of cart insurance to use them.

Do you have the rear-wheel-steering flatbed cart endorsement for Costco and Home Depot, yet? :facepalm:

'Tards.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 07:17:56 AM »
Quote
Suits, 78, of Storrs, suffered facial lacerations, leg lacerations and leg hematomas — a collection of pooled blood in a small area of the lower leg that required extensive surgery and skin grafting, according to court documents. She was 74 at the time.

WTF?  How frickin' fast do you have to be pushing a shopping cart to get that much damage even if it does suddenly stop?

birdman

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 07:30:48 AM »
WTF?  How frickin' fast do you have to be pushing a shopping cart to get that much damage even if it does suddenly stop?

Not very fast if you have the skin and bones of a 74yr old.  Which also answers the previous question about who uses a cart at Kohls.  If the article is correct, those wheels were unsuitable, and the award was commensurate with that level of injury and associated complications on an older person. 

MechAg94

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 09:08:43 AM »
Not very fast if you have the skin and bones of a 74yr old.  Which also answers the previous question about who uses a cart at Kohls.  If the article is correct, those wheels were unsuitable, and the award was commensurate with that level of injury and associated complications on an older person. 
First, if the store had never had any issues before, what makes this one incident special?  I've had trouble with shopping carts at grocery stores many times.  It is not unusual.
Second, if someone is that fragile, why should everyone around them be liable if they are injured?
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HankB

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 09:12:50 AM »
Sounds like another candidate for a "Stella" award . . . a jury of morons in a court presided over by a moron awarded damages to one of their own kind.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 09:14:05 AM »
First, if the store had never had any issues before, what makes this one incident special?  I've had trouble with shopping carts at grocery stores many times.  It is not unusual.
Second, if someone is that fragile, why should everyone around them be liable if they are injured?


You and I aren't 74 year old women, either.  A cart that "uses plastic furniture casters" doesn't hold up well to actual daily use.  
You and I would probably hope nobody was looking if the cart came to a sudden stop on us.  A 74 year old woman is much more frail.
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De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 09:23:39 AM »
Quote
collection of pooled blood in a small area of the lower leg that required extensive surgery and skin grafting, according to court documents. She was 74 at the time.

A good rule of thumb from this article is that her medical bills would've been around $130,000 of that judgment, perhaps more.  It's not so outrageous when you take the attorney's fees (probably near $75,000) out as well.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 10:05:56 AM »
Not very fast if you have the skin and bones of a 74yr old.

Facial lacerations?  From a shopping cart? 

De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 10:08:53 AM »
Facial lacerations?  From a shopping cart? 

She fell down
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

KD5NRH

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2011, 10:18:28 AM »
She fell down

So the floor was of unsuitable quality too?


HankB

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2011, 10:30:01 AM »
So the floor was of unsuitable quality too?
Gravity did it! Let's sue the maker of gravity!
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De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2011, 10:37:50 AM »
So the floor was of unsuitable quality too?



You're kidding, right?  This is a pretty simple case - crappy shopping cart that you wouldn't have expected to stop, did stop, and caused an old lady to fall.  That's an entirely predictable consequence of having crappy shopping carts. 

What would the floor have to do with this?  Falling down causes injuries - it's sometimes even fatal for young people.  That's why you get sued for having a store and creating conditions that are likely to cause someone to fall.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2011, 11:19:48 AM »
The slip & fall lawyers win again.

Point #1:
We ought not make the world safe so that toddlers can run about willy-nilly with no expectation of injury, as that places burdensome restrictions on everyone else.

Point #2:
We ought not make the world safe so that oldsters can run about willy-nilly with no expectation of injury, as that places burdensome restrictions on everyone else.

The world isn't made out of Nerf.  Deal with it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2011, 11:20:24 AM »
You're kidding, right?  This is a pretty simple case - crappy shopping cart that you wouldn't have expected to stop, did stop, and caused an old lady to fall.  That's an entirely predictable consequence of having crappy shopping carts. 

What would the floor have to do with this?  Falling down causes injuries - it's sometimes even fatal for young people.  That's why you get sued for having a store and creating conditions that are likely to cause someone to fall.



I guess all the farmer's markets, the Renaissance Fairs, the county festivals and everything else that could possibly use a less than perfect parking lot surface like a rocky lot or anyone that has a parking lot with some cracks in it, needs to post signs prohibiting anyone over the age of 70 on their premises... for their own health.

Being old is NOT the fault of the store.

Nothing stopped that lady from asking one of the Kohls employees to help her carry/cart her purchases to her car.  Heck, they may have even asked at the register.  But nothing stopped her from ASKING for help.

If she's THAT frail then she should have had one of those wheeled-walker devices with a basket in the front of it for her purse and purchases, prior to entering the store.

Above-average frailty of the injured should have no bearing on suitable conditions for a retail location's shopping carts or parking lot maintenance.
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De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2011, 11:40:54 AM »
Oh the hyperbole - a lawsuit over faulty shopping carts does not mean every parking lot needs to be smoothed, every sport ended, and every renaissance fair made safe for hunchbacks.

When you pick up a shopping cart at any one store, you expect it will work like all the other shopping carts out there - I'm sure this woman would've reasonably believed it was just like the ones she used at the grocery store.  Notice the contrast to walking through an unknown parking lot or rocky field - you expect those things to present some difficulties.

This particular cart wasn't up to speed; it was apparently junk.  And its faults were things that you could reasonably foresee would cause injury to at least some of the customers at the store. 

Is it more reasonable to expect the old lady to be on guard in every store, with every machine, or to expect the store to take basic precautions with its equipment?

To put this in gun terms, what you guys are advocating is the equivalent of letting a gun maker whose weapon explodes with standard ammunition off the hook for injuries.  After all, we all know that guns sometimes explode, and that there's a chance of a faulty gun.  We can also choose not to shoot if we don't want to be blown up.  Would you be alright with that outcome?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 11:44:34 AM »


Above-average frailty of the injured should have no bearing on suitable conditions for a retail location's shopping carts or parking lot maintenance.

Yeah, just one point here - frailty only goes to the damages, not liability.  Once we've established that it's the store's fault, the amount of injury caused ought to be borne by the store.  It's not the fragile person's fault that someone else did wrong.

Not everyone would've been so injured by that fall, but MANY people could be made to fall by faulty equipment, and we know that falling down can potentially cause serious injury, even to healthy people.  That's why the store is on the hook, not because it was an old lady who got badly hurt. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 11:52:32 AM »


When you pick up a shopping cart at any one store, you expect it will work like all the other shopping carts out there - I'm sure this woman would've reasonably believed it was just like the ones she used at the grocery store.  Notice the contrast to walking through an unknown parking lot or rocky field - you expect those things to present some difficulties.


How many times in your life have you been to the grocery store and gotten "that cart?"  You know, the one with the bad wheel that has a flat spot, or a stuck bearing, or the caster doesn't rotate to allow it to steer?  You put the bad cart back in the stack and get a different one. 

Quote

This particular cart wasn't up to speed; it was apparently junk.  And its faults were things that you could reasonably foresee would cause injury to at least some of the customers at the store. 

Is it more reasonable to expect the old lady to be on guard in every store, with every machine, or to expect the store to take basic precautions with its equipment?


She knows her frailties.  Kohls doesn't.

Quote

To put this in gun terms, what you guys are advocating is the equivalent of letting a gun maker whose weapon explodes with standard ammunition off the hook for injuries.  After all, we all know that guns sometimes explode, and that there's a chance of a faulty gun.  We can also choose not to shoot if we don't want to be blown up.  Would you be alright with that outcome?

Bad analogy.

This "gun" blew up because of user error, not because of design.  Frail old lady couldn't keep her balance.  The scope of injury was greater merely because she was frail.  Not because the product was inherently dangerous in its own right.

If the cart didn't catch on a rock in the parking lot, then perhaps the shoes she was wearing didn't have soles that lasted long enough and were worn down on traction... and she stepped on the rock instead?  It rolled, and she fell because of the lack of traction the rest of her shoes had against the ground.  Is that Kohls fault, too, for the rock in the parking lot?  Or perhaps the shoe designer for not making the soles of the shoes last longer? 

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De Selby

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 12:00:11 PM »
Kohl's knows people with her frailties (and others who don't have them) can come into the store and be injured by junk carts.  That's all that's required for liability.

Kohl's is liable because the cart was dangerous, not because the lady was old.  Kohl's has a bigger bill to pay because it was liable for someone else's injuries, and those happened to be large..  Two entirely different things you're confusing there - her age and frailty in this case led to the amount of the damages; it has absolutely zero bearing on whether the store was liable.  The store is liable because it knew someone, not necessarily an old lady, could be injured by the cart.

You don't offer dangerous products to people for their use and then complain when they ask you to pay for the damages.  Just like you don't sell guns that you know are prone to explosion and then whine when people sue to pay for missing eyeballs.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Ryan in Maine

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2011, 01:26:20 PM »
Does anyone have a picture of the carts from that Kohl's store?


This is the first image a Google search threw out there. Wondering if they're the same...

http://marketingenious.terapad.com/resources/5371/assets/images/kohls%20cart.jpg
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 01:32:00 PM by Ryan in Maine »

RevDisk

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2011, 01:55:09 PM »

You don't have a legal right to ban old or frail persons either.  A very nice "no win" situation folks and corporations, "absolutely guaranteed loot" for the lawyers. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2011, 01:56:01 PM »
This is the first image a Google search threw out there. Wondering if they're the same...

Those front casters look just like the wheels on every cart at WalMart, Kroger, Albertson's, etc.  Anyone who has ever used a shopping cart knows they're crap, and should expect odd behavior, including a sudden failure to roll.  Heck, that's a design feature on some of the anti-theft carts out there.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2011, 02:13:33 PM »
Those are the same carts at every Kohls I've been to.

Front casters are the same as Wallyworld and your grocery store.  Rear wheels are pretty nice, actually.  A step up from most.

This suit is craptastic.  More proof that "social workers" are neither very social, nor do they work well.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

HankB

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2011, 02:49:26 PM »
How many times in your life have you been to the grocery store and gotten "that cart?"  You know, the one with the bad wheel that has a flat spot, or a stuck bearing, or the caster doesn't rotate to allow it to steer?  You put the bad cart back in the stack and get a different one. 
Correct . . . and by the age of 74, that woman ought to have had enough shopping experience to expect that some carts are bad.

Also, I have to wonder how fast she was going in order to get all those injuries from a broken wheel; even at age 74, while I could see a sprained thumb or jammed finger, something along those lines . . . I wouldn't expect a fragile oldster to be running . . . but all kinds of facial and leg lacerations and hematomas? Uh uh. Sounds mighty fishy to me.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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roo_ster

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2011, 03:22:49 PM »
You don't have a legal right to ban old or frail persons either.  A very nice "no win" situation folks and corporations, "absolutely guaranteed loot" for the lawyers. 

Ayup.

That is why they are called "looters."
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roo_ster

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never_retreat

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Re: Whodathunkit?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 04:24:41 PM »
I will agree on a few things.
The carts are of a weird design at kolls. Light weight things. But than again its for clothing not a stack of sheetrock.
Old people tend to be more frail.
Floors are usually hard.
Gravity always works.

What do you want to bet this person is usually using a cane or walker? She put the cane in the cart than began using the cart for support. You see that all the time.

I doubt that cart was designed around supporting the weight of a person.

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