Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on October 31, 2019, 09:40:44 PM
-
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/31/775256468/the-boy-scouts-of-america-will-increase-their-membership-fees-by-more-than-80?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1ABwkxvHFFldujiS48vaWsTtxfK9XKVq3P4AYvsiXNgiGfTvzRrzWKOa8&fbclid=IwAR0_zp2Y4DRPjuE1PR9oVzVJ3xoT9ntEgxznsGrNQT-InsGHSfqAvyYw_Dg&fbclid=IwAR0H41zB57kJCMNKLwf-btFS_y0R_F78GycpP9V-rTreKB-Y1zOLqNkXCB0
I am somewhat surprised that the Scouts can still get liability insurance for the sexual abuse allegations at all. What I think is more likely is that it will go towards paying the abuse claims not covered by insurance and/or very high deductibles on whatever coverage they are able to get.
-
The annual membership fee will rise from $33 to $60 — a more than 80% increase. The annual fee for adults will increase from $33 to $36. The Boy Scouts of America currently has 2.2 million youth members. The fee increase could raise more than $60 million in additional funds for the Scouts next year, as estimated by The Associated Press.
The increase won't bring in anywhere near $60 million if a significant percentage of scouts drop out due to the increase. [popcorn]
-
Just saw a TV story - a news crawl across the bottom of the screen, actually - claiming BSA was losing so many scouts that they began letting in girls a few years back.
But the news crawl also stated that one of the the biggest sponsors of BSA - The Mormon church - will be withdrawing their BSA support on Jan 1 and forming their own youth organization. (No word on whether the new group will emphasize actual outdoorsy-type scouting or proselytizing.)
-
I was a volunteer leader with the Boy Scouts when my sons were involved (oldest aged out, youngest lost interest). Admitting girls was in part to increase membership numbers, and in part to defeat the lawsuits involving gender discrimination claims (which were starting to get traction). For a long time, the Mormon church used Boy Scouts as the formal organization for its youth programming. They sponsored LDS troops and funnelled a lot of money into Scouts. When they pull out, all of the LDS troops will either go away, or need to find new sponsors. There will be a concurrent membership loss.
IMO, Scouting is doomed. And I could seriously spend an hour explaining why, but it has to do with the program and the idiots in charge of that. They are safing the program too much (no fixed blade knives in most camps, stupid rules about shooting sports, etc.). They are making the program too academic, with too much emphasis on school-like requirements and activities. They are cheapening their brand by slapping a logo on cheaper, low quality products and uniforms imported from China. I could go on and on and on...
Oh, and the 80% increase in fees? Yeah, it's going from $33 a year to $60 a year. Not really a good story to say Scouts now costs $5 a month. Much better to write about an 80% increase because pedophiles. ;/
-
Chris said,
"Oh, and the 80% increase in fees? Yeah, it's going from $33 a year to $60 a year. Not really a good story to say Scouts now costs $5 a month. Much better to write about an 80% increase because pedophiles. rolleyes"
It's all in the slant.
It's become an art form in today's journalism.
-
Just saw a TV story - a news crawl across the bottom of the screen, actually - claiming BSA was losing so many scouts that they began letting in girls a few years back.
But the news crawl also stated that one of the the biggest sponsors of BSA - The Mormon church - will be withdrawing their BSA support on Jan 1 and forming their own youth organization. (No word on whether the new group will emphasize actual outdoorsy-type scouting or proselytizing.)
Probably both. Living in Utah, most Mormons are pretty outdoorsy. They hike, camp and hunt. Scouting is super popular out there. I'd imagine most of their strong holds out west will be the same.
Other places where outdoors activity is popular, I expect the same.
My son loved scouting in Texas. They were outside all the time. When we moved to NoVA, he dropped out because the troop was boring.
-
My son does Trail Life.
-
My son does Trail Life.
And what is Trail Life?
-
And what is Trail Life?
Explicitly Christian* Scouting organization, founded by former Board of the Boy Scouts who were unhappy with the direction the Boy Scouts were taking.
My son is also part of Trail Life. It's still growing and developing, but it is a great alternative.
*Like Kanye's new album (https://babylonbee.com/news/recording-industry-adds-explicitly-christian-warning-label-to-kanyes-new-album)
-
[popcorn]
-
Wait. Read the thread title again....it just hit me...
So, you're saying the sex abuse is a feature? :P
-
Grew up in scouts and did some volunteering as an adult.
Personal observations and opinion: this was controlled flight into terrain.
-
When BSA finally craters what happens to the big properties like Philmont?
-
When BSA finally craters what happens to the big properties like Philmont?
Probably depends upon how the trust is written, if it gets sold, people well above our pay grade will buy it or some group like The Nature Conservancy will buy it and keep it open to the public. We just had 1100 acre 4H camp in Iowa get bought by The Nature Conservancy to prevent private ownership and keep it in the pubic domain. Iowa doesn't have a lot of public land so this was good for folks.
Nature Conservancy doesn't ban hunting FYI. One thing they do is purchase land for public interest and sell it back to a local public entity, usually land is earmarked ahead of time do to habitat, popular destination, large undeveloped area etc.
-
https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/
Philmont is mortgaged as collateral for a line of credit.
-
Wait. Read the thread title again....it just hit me...
So, you're saying the sex abuse is a feature? :P
Phrasing...
-
https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/
Philmont is mortgaged as collateral for a line of credit.
Whoa! From the link:
Seeking to ease some of the financial pressure, the BSA announced in October that the annual membership fee for its 2.2. million youth members will rise from $33 to $60, while the fee for adult volunteers will rise from $33 to $36. The news dismayed numerous local scout leaders, who had already started registering youths for the coming year.
When did the BSA start charging adult leaders to "volunteer"? I'm sure my mother didn't pay anything to be a Cub Scout den mother, and I didn't pay anything to be an Explorer post advisor in the early to mid-1970s.
-
Whoa! From the link:
When did the BSA start charging adult leaders to "volunteer"? I'm sure my mother didn't pay anything to be a Cub Scout den mother, and I didn't pay anything to be an Explorer post advisor in the early to mid-1970s.
They probably added it when they started background checks on the leaders.
My grip is that BSA follows a calendar year for everything, but a vast majority of the packs/troops follow a school year. So we already collected our fees back in September before this increase was announced. This is going to hit the pack in the pocketbook for sure.
-
https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/
Philmont is mortgaged as collateral for a line of credit.
This strikes me as a monumentally short-sighted and stupid move. Gotta wonder if it's even legal.
-
This strikes me as a monumentally short-sighted and stupid move. Gotta wonder if it's even legal.
That's a really good description of pretty much all BSA choices for the past 15 years. (Other than the legal part)
-
When did the BSA start charging adult leaders to "volunteer"? I'm sure my mother didn't pay anything to be a Cub Scout den mother, and I didn't pay anything to be an Explorer post advisor in the early to mid-1970s.
I used to pay an annual registration fee when I was an adult volunteer. A lot of units will pay for the adult leaders. I think it was around $30 back then.
-
This strikes me as a monumentally short-sighted and stupid move. Gotta wonder if it's even legal.
When your intent is to destroy an organization those are the best choices to make. So when the planned default happens who is getting the loot?
-
So when the planned default happens who is getting the loot?
They took out a mortgage on Philmont, with J.P. Morgan Chase Bank. If the BSA defaults, J.P. Morgan Chase Bank will own a ranch.
-
The BSA sold off several campgrounds in Michigan over the last 4 or 5 years. I'm not even sure whether they have any camps any more. When I was in scouting in the 50's we had the choice of 4 really nice campgrounds on the outskirts of Grand Rapids and along Lake Michigan.
-
Local Scout Council is considering selling all of one camp (of the four developed camps they own), and some undeveloped land in a second camp. Membership is falling, and not just for the reasons we've debated about the program. There is actually a significant drop in the number of young people available to join. Add that to the LDS units disbanding, and the program issues, and they are starting down the barrel of a serious membership problem. Loss of members not only means lower membership fees coming in, but fewer kids paying to go to camp, fewer kids buying Scout brand stuff, etc.
A few years back, sitting around a campfire, some of us adult volunteers predicted the end of Scouting before our deaths. Afraid we might have been right.
-
Local Scout Council is considering selling all of one camp (of the four developed camps they own), and some undeveloped land in a second camp. Membership is falling, and not just for the reasons we've debated about the program. There is actually a significant drop in the number of young people available to join. Add that to the LDS units disbanding, and the program issues, and they are starting down the barrel of a serious membership problem. Loss of members not only means lower membership fees coming in, but fewer kids paying to go to camp, fewer kids buying Scout brand stuff, etc.
A few years back, sitting around a campfire, some of us adult volunteers predicted the end of Scouting before our deaths. Afraid we might have been right.
Significant drop in young people available for scouting. A very predictable situation ( one many colleges are aware of impacting them in 10 years.
SOOO... what did the Boy Scouts do? Cheese off the portion of the population most likely to have large families with multiple children in Scouting in order to appease people who aren't really interested in Scouting AND generally have one or fewer children.
BRILLIANT!
-
When your intent is to destroy an organization those are the best choices to make. So when the planned default happens who is getting the loot?
Eddie Lampert?
-
... fewer kids buying Scout brand stuff, etc.
Who in their right mind would buy official BSA junk today?
When I was a Boy Scout, the official hatchet was solid steel all the way through the handle -- you could beat on rocks with it for ten years and not break it. It also came with a very good quality leather sheath. Like this one (from Etsy):
(https://i.etsystatic.com/12707852/r/il/8b4016/1429169826/il_fullxfull.1429169826_5jh5.jpg)
What's the official BSA hatchet today? A piece of dreck from China. Don't try to use it -- the head flies off (yes, a friend has one and, yes, the head flies off). The handle is tubular steel, and the head is a press fit.
(https://retailobjects.scoutshop.org/media/catalog/product/cache/6d3d6f8e46df5a79523c6f7f85322972/6/0/600605.jpg)
Source: https://www.scoutshop.org/9060-camp-axe-600605.html
-
"A few years back, sitting around a campfire, some of us adult volunteers predicted the end of Scouting before our deaths. Afraid we might have been right."
Don't worry, the government will step in to fill the void with Young Pioneer Corps.
-
What's the official BSA hatchet today? A piece of dreck from China. Don't try to use it -- the head flies off (yes, a friend has one and, yes, the head flies off). The handle is tubular steel, and the head is a press fit.
Source: https://www.scoutshop.org/9060-camp-axe-600605.html
Did you see this one?
https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-hand-axe-14in-647614.html
https://www.scoutshop.org/camping/knives-tools/axes-and-saws.html
-
Did you see this one?
https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-hand-axe-14in-647614.html
https://www.scoutshop.org/camping/knives-tools/axes-and-saws.html
No, I didn't. Do you have any idea as to who makes it, or what the country of origin is?
-
https://www.scoutshop.org/camping/knives-tools/axes-and-saws.html
Those seem overpriced. Could one use something like this?
https://www.coldsteel.com/products/axes-tomahawks/trail-boss.html
Or does it have to be a BSA-approved axe?
-
I picked up a couple of these ( https://www.stanleytools.com/products/hand-tools/hammers/specialty/fatmax-20-oz-campers-axe/fmht51307 ) from Amazon for (IIRC) $19.99 each. Solid steel handle runs the full length, basically like an Estwing but at half the price. I gave one to the friend who has the BSA hatchet with the flying head, and I'll keep one so I don't beat up on my father's estwing.
-
No, I didn't. Do you have any idea as to who makes it, or what the country of origin is?
On the left hand side of the browser is a scroll bar, if you scroll down, it says Council Tools.
Here is a link to http://counciltool.com/ (also has a scroll bar on the left hand side)
Made in USA if you can't scroll. Forged carbon steel, hickory handle.
-
Those seem overpriced. Could one use something like this?
https://www.coldsteel.com/products/axes-tomahawks/trail-boss.html
Or does it have to be a BSA-approved axe?
That isn't a hand axe/hatchet. No doesn't have to be BSA approved or whatever that means for equipment.
No, my Scout hand axe was a Estwing Hand Axe, I had a old Plumb Hudson bay axe for bigger stuff. Estwing was lost, I think my Hudson bay axe was passed on when my parents moved away. I have since acquired identical replacements and a couple bigger Plumb felling axes.
Branding is just branding, some people like branding.
Overpriced? Council Tools has a suggested retail price of $46.xx for a non BSA branded hand axe. You pay more for made in the USA products. BSA gets their cut for a logo.
-
On the left hand side of the browser is a scroll bar, if you scroll down, it says Council Tools.
Here is a link to http://counciltool.com/ (also has a scroll bar on the left hand side)
Made in USA if you can't scroll. Forged carbon steel, hickory handle.
Council tools has a rep for making some good axes.
I've almost convinced myself I need one of these.
http://counciltool.com/shop/velvicut/velvicut-premium-saddle-axe/ (http://counciltool.com/shop/velvicut/velvicut-premium-saddle-axe/)
-
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/13/934718112/magnet-for-sexual-predators-the-boy-scouts-face-allegations-of-sexual-assault
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/us/boy-scouts-sex-abuse-deadline-bankruptcy/index.html
https://apnews.com/article/90k-sex-abuse-claims-filed-boy-scouts-7c60a301143de7553787ebdfcf8f0703
It appears as if the number of sex abuse cases out of Scouting may dwarf the number of cases from the Catholic church and other religious groups. One of the most complicated parts of the settlement will be figuring out which insurance companies provided coverage back then and how much they are on the hook for. The national organization and some local councils may not have much in the way of any assets left when all is said and done. A sad coda to an organization with noble goals.
-
It appears as if the number of sex abuse cases out of Scouting may dwarf the number of cases from the Catholic church and other religious groups. One of the most complicated parts of the settlement will be figuring out which insurance companies provided coverage back then and how much they are on the hook for. The national organization and some local councils may not have much in the way of any assets left when all is said and done. A sad coda to an organization with noble goals.
When we lived in Champaign, IL, thorugh the '80s, there was a big case locally. Weird guy (I used to see him around the Illini Union, trust me, he was weird), scout leader volunteer, did all the nasty stuff.
I went looking on Google to see if I could pull up anything about that case. I couldn't find him., Bbecause of all the other stuff I was pulling up, he wsa lost in the noise.
-
Loss of members not only means lower membership fees coming in, but fewer kids paying to go to camp, fewer kids buying Scout brand stuff, etc.
Compared to what they had when I was in scouting (shortly after the signing of the Magna Carta), what they sell under the Boy Scouts of America brand today is pure junk. Case in point -- the Boy Scout hatchet. The official Scout hatchet I have was a single piece of forged steel. It was unbreakable, and made in the USA by the Bridgeport Axe Company. The thing they sell now is made by (or for -- it made in China) Coghlan, and you can buy the same thing in Walmart for about half the price. And it's dreck -- a friend has one but he said he can't let anyone use it, because if you try to chop kindling with it, the head flies off.
Then:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bargainjohn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FM641Chatchet1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Now:
(https://retailobjects.scoutshop.org/media/catalog/product/cache/305e8eaa662493f3fc6269f8ec180c9f/6/0/600605.jpg)
Yes, I posted this before ... but it bears repeating. It's an example of racing to the bottom. Sometimes constantly looking for ways to do things cheaper isn't the best solution.
-
Compared to what they had when I was in scouting (shortly after the signing of the Magna Carta), what they sell under the Boy Scouts of America brand today is pure junk. Case in point -- the Boy Scout hatchet. The official Scout hatchet I have was a single piece of forged steel. It was unbreakable, and made in the USA by the Bridgeport Axe Company. The thing they sell now is made by (or for -- it made in China) Coghlan, and you can buy the same thing in Walmart for about half the price. And it's dreck -- a friend has one but he said he can't let anyone use it, because if you try to chop kindling with it, the head flies off.
Then:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bargainjohn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FM641Chatchet1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Yes, I posted this before ... but it bears repeating. It's an example of racing to the bottom. Sometimes constantly looking for ways to do things cheaper isn't the best solution.
I've been thinking and saying for a long time, that we're not as rich as we like to think we are. We just fool each other and ourselves by having Walmarts full of crap product.
-
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012388865/boy-scouts-of-america-settlement-with-sexual-abuse-survivors-victims
The first major settlement for $ 850 million is reached. Further settlements are expected. I would love to see the settlement agreement to see what percentage plaintiff counsel gets as their fee. Typical contingency fees in these cases are 30-40%. Plus of course you have the costs of the case, so I suspect the amount available to be paid to the plaintiffs to be just over half the settlement amount.
-
Compared to what they had when I was in scouting (shortly after the signing of the Magna Carta), what they sell under the Boy Scouts of America brand today is pure junk. Case in point -- the Boy Scout hatchet. The official Scout hatchet I have was a single piece of forged steel. It was unbreakable, and made in the USA by the Bridgeport Axe Company. The thing they sell now is made by (or for -- it made in China) Coghlan, and you can buy the same thing in Walmart for about half the price. And it's dreck -- a friend has one but he said he can't let anyone use it, because if you try to chop kindling with it, the head flies off.
Then:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bargainjohn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FM641Chatchet1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Now:
(https://retailobjects.scoutshop.org/media/catalog/product/cache/305e8eaa662493f3fc6269f8ec180c9f/6/0/600605.jpg)
Yes, I posted this before ... but it bears repeating. It's an example of racing to the bottom. Sometimes constantly looking for ways to do things cheaper isn't the best solution.
As was stated above that Chinese POS isn't actually a BSA branded axe, nor is it the "Official" scout axe.
This is:
(https://retailobjects.scoutshop.org/media/catalog/product/cache/305e8eaa662493f3fc6269f8ec180c9f/6/4/647614_f2.jpg)
https://www.scoutshop.org//bsa-hand-axe-14in-647614.html
Which, for $50 with a USA forged head and USA hickory handle, actually seems pretty reasonable. Yes they offer a $15 chinese POS, but is it that horrible to have options? The BSA branded Hatchet seems OK. I would probably go with an Eastwing but there's nothing wrong with theirs.
Perhaps what they really need is a class on good tools and a "Buy once, Cry once" merit badge.
-
As was stated above that Chinese POS isn't actually a BSA branded axe, nor is it the "Official" scout axe.
The photo I used (of the Coghlan hatchet) was taken directly from the BSA web site at the time I posted it. That was the official BSA hatchet at the time.
Open the image information and this is what you'll find: https://retailobjects.scoutshop.org/media/catalog/product/cache/305e8eaa662493f3fc6269f8ec180c9f/6/0/600605.jpg
Maybe the BSA has realized what a totally useless piece of junk it is and replaced it with something a bit better. When I posted, that was the official scouting hatchet.
-
The photo I used (of the Coghlan hatchet) was taken directly from the BSA web site at the time I posted it. That was the official BSA hatchet at the time.
No it wasn't. It was a cheap option the scouts made available alongside the BSA branded hatchet.
Charby posted the BSA branded "offical" hatchet the day after your initial post.
You misread a cheap alternative offering as the replacement for the premium tool you had, when it never was.
-
Between the whole pederasty scandal, the acceptance of homosexuals and girls, I've read they are down around 80% of their membership.
Ending with a whimper not a bang.
I have that Coghlan hatchet (don't ask), it is barely functional out of the package.
-
When we lived in Champaign, IL, thorugh the '80s, there was a big case locally. Weird guy (I used to see him around the Illini Union, trust me, he was weird), scout leader volunteer, did all the nasty stuff.
I went looking on Google to see if I could pull up anything about that case. I couldn't find him., Because of all the other stuff I was pulling up, he was lost in the noise.
Took another stab at it. Widened the search to the next town over from Champaign-Urbana. Bingo.
Frank H. Morris (https://boyscoutssexualabuse.com/wp-content/uploads/iv_files/bsa_frank-h-morris.pdf). A peripatetic piece of work.
Thing is, I remember it being a big deal locally. I remember there being a trial, with detailed stories in the paper locally as it progressed. I can find none of that now. So, it's interesting how some stuff just drops completely out of recall of the Great G00gle.
(His obituary, beyond the basics of age, city and surviving relatives, only says "A proud U.S. Army veteran, and avid Scouter with the Boy Scouts of America. " I'm sure you were. )