Argh. Teachers and Civil Servants!

[AZRedhawk44]

 

Went to karate class today.

Dippy fat teacher sits there stretching before class, bemoaning the financial plight of "the country," meaning those foolish enough to work for usurous organizations like schools that pay horribly and don't cull the herd of bad examples of the profession in order to merit better pay for those who actually excel at their craft.

Finds solace and comfort in the form of another classmate, a civil servant working IT for a police department.

The subject, specifically?

"All those houses that are being foreclosed on... the government should take them and sell them at a reduced rate to teachers, firefighters, policemen and other civil servants who can't otherwise afford them."

:bangheadsmiley:

I just couldn't stop myself.  There was no way.  I rampaged about the rampant cronyism that would take place in such a situation, that government "takings" in order to benefit government employees would be the height of evil, that not everyone "deserved" a house, and that those that do deserve a house actually save money for a down payment and make sacrifices.

Argh.  All these "social experimenters" are going to be the death of this country, one way or another.  I can just smell the class warfare that's coming.

[Fjolnirsson]

Indeed. Things are getting ugly.
I think it's close to time for everyone to get out of the pool...

[Standing Wolf]

The easiest way to spot neo-aristocrats is to listen for cries for extra-special privileges.

[dm1333]

One teacher and one civil servant at a karate class.  Not ALL teachers and ALL civil servants.  Just to set the record straight.

[HankB]

"All those houses that are being foreclosed on... the government should take them and sell them at a reduced rate to teachers, firefighters, policemen and other civil servants who can't otherwise afford them."

This reminds me - a LOT - of what Robert Mugabe started doing in Zimbabwe a few years back.

Things are not going well over there.

In the USA, making this kind of cr@p official policy and implementing it nationwide would provoke widespread violence.

[JColdIron]

Went to karate class today.


Argh.  All these "social experimenters" are going to be the death of this country, one way or another.  I can just smell the class warfare that's coming.

Looks like some of your class mates need a front kick to their solarplexus. For "stimulus" 

[lee n. field]

"All those houses that are being foreclosed on... the government should take them and sell them at a reduced rate to teachers, firefighters, policemen and other civil servants who can't otherwise afford them."

<spit>.  They make more than I do.

[MillCreek]

In years past, several cities required municipal employees to live in the same city as which they worked.  In some of those same cities, they would offer grants or low-cost loans to allow the employees to buy a home, since they could not otherwise afford to do so on a governmental salary.  It was one way to attract and retain qualified employees.  I suspect few cities still have this residential requirement for their employees.

[RevDisk]

In the USA, making this kind of cr@p official policy and implementing it nationwide would provoke widespread violence.

Na, there'd just be a lot of foreclosed homes burning to the ground.

[GigaBuist]

"All those houses that are being foreclosed on... the government should take them and sell them at a reduced rate to teachers, firefighters, policemen and other civil servants who can't otherwise afford them."

If a case could be made that the cost to the community in increased crime and decreased property values (and decreased tax revenue that would follow) outweighs the cost of local government eating up the difference on the house's cost I'd be OK with it.

But not because they 'deserve' a better house than what they can afford.

[dm1333]

BTW,

Dippy fat teacher sits there stretching before class, bemoaning the financial plight of "the country," meaning those foolish enough to work for usurous organizations like schools that pay horribly and don't cull the herd of bad examples of the profession in order to merit better pay for those who actually excel at their craft.

Usury (pronounced /ˈjuːʒəri/, comes from the Medieval Latin usuria, "interest" or "excessive interest", from the Latin usura "interest") originally meant the charging of interest on loans. This would have included charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change. After countries legislated to limit the rate of interest on loans, usury came to mean the interest above the lawful rate. In common usage today, the word means the charging of unreasonable or relatively high rates of interest. As such, the term is largely derived from Abrahamic religious principles; Riba is the corresponding Islamic term. The primary focus in this article is on the Christian tradition.

So teachers are fools because they work for schools that "pay horribly" and those schools loan them money at an excessive interest rate?  Nice!  Any teachers here care to comment about this?  The only reason I am is because I'm getting ready to retire from the military and thinking about teaching as a second career.

[makattak]

So teachers are fools because they work for schools that "pay horribly" and those schools loan them money at an excessive interest rate?  Nice!  Any teachers here care to comment about this?  The only reason I am is because I'm getting ready to retire from the military and thinking about teaching as a second career.

Average Teacher Salary (elementary and secondary) in the United States is about $40,000. For nine months of work.

Yeah, schools "pay horribly."

[AJ Dual]

Average Teacher Salary (elementary and secondary) in the United States is about $40,000. For nine months of work.

Yeah, schools "pay horribly."

Add to that the value of the benifits/pension which far exceed the private sector. (at least here in WI) Guaranteed raises based on the QEO, Qualified Economic Offer, indext to inflation etc. And guranteed pay raises for masters and PhD degrees, with paid/compensated tuition...

[dm1333]

Instead of digging through Census Burea or Department of Labor websites I used good ol' Wiki to get these figures.  They were citing government statistics  though so they should be reliable.  In 2007 the average income for a man was just over 45,000 dollars and for a woman it was just over 35,000.  In 2003 the average salary for someone with a bachelors degree was over $66,000 and for a masters over $78,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Unless my math is wrong that $40,000 for nine months work is equal to about $53,000 for 12 months of work.  Which is still 13 large less than what the average degree is getting you.  And if that 40,000 figure is correct (remember that I did not supply it) that figure is for teachers with bachelors, masters and doctorates.

[AZRedhawk44]

BTW,


Usury (pronounced /ˈjuːʒəri/, comes from the Medieval Latin usuria, "interest" or "excessive interest", from the Latin usura "interest") originally meant the charging of interest on loans. This would have included charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change. After countries legislated to limit the rate of interest on loans, usury came to mean the interest above the lawful rate. In common usage today, the word means the charging of unreasonable or relatively high rates of interest. As such, the term is largely derived from Abrahamic religious principles; Riba is the corresponding Islamic term. The primary focus in this article is on the Christian tradition.

So teachers are fools because they work for schools that "pay horribly" and those schools loan them money at an excessive interest rate?  Nice!  Any teachers here care to comment about this?  The only reason I am is because I'm getting ready to retire from the military and thinking about teaching as a second career.

You're right... wrong word.  I meant penurious.  I was worked up when I wrote the OP.

Districts pay decently for starting teachers.  About $30-$35K for 9 months of work... not bad.  But, get 10 years in and look at the pay.  I'm 10 years into my profession and making a heck of a lot more than a 10 year teacher.  But, I'm very good at my profession (if I can pat myself on the back for a second).  I make more than teachers I know that have been in the game for 30 years and are very good at their jobs.

Teachers get paid for the average value of a given experience level.  Good teachers should get significantly more than average teachers, and bad teachers should be fired.  But that doesn't happen.  Liberals want misery spread equally, and teachers are predominantly liberals.  Hence, their pay sucks.

I'm not saying all teachers need pay raises... I'm saying good teachers need to get paid more than average teachers, and bad teachers need to be canned.  Of course, the NEA would never go for that in a million years.

[dm1333]

I'm not trying to pick on you.  I hate it when people bitch about not getting paid a lot for a job like teaching when it is pretty common knowledge that teachers don't get paid well.  I also hate it when people imply that teachers get paid a lot and only work 9 months of the year. 

I run into the same thing with military pay, my brother thinks I am way overpaid ("the military is like being on welfare" was the phrase he used) but he has no real idea of what I am responsible for.

[roo_ster]

Instead of digging through Census Burea or Department of Labor websites I used good ol' Wiki to get these figures.  They were citing government statistics  though so they should be reliable.  In 2007 the average income for a man was just over 45,000 dollars and for a woman it was just over 35,000.  In 2003 the average salary for someone with a bachelors degree was over $66,000 and for a masters over $78,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Unless my math is wrong that $40,000 for nine months work is equal to about $53,000 for 12 months of work.  Which is still 13 large less than what the average degree is getting you.  And if that 40,000 figure is correct (remember that I did not supply it) that figure is for teachers with bachelors, masters and doctorates.

Well, an education degree* (at any level, B, M, D) & cert is worthless outside of the education market, in the sense that little useful knowledge is gained or skills transfered.  I've seen that sausage being made.

The wonder is that ed degree earners earn as much money as they do.  I think the explanation lies in the nature of the gov't near-monopoly and ability to coerce tax monies from the citizenry.

The average salary for a gov't employee is another matter:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/078.html

America, in case you hadn't noticed, is dividing into two nations. The 22.5-million-strong public sector (that includes retirees) is growing ever larger, and enjoying ever greater wages and benefits often guaranteed by state constitutions.

In private-sector America your job, assuming you still have one, hangs on the fate of the economy. If your employer ever offered a pension for life … odds are it has stopped doing so, or soon will. Those retirement accounts you scrimped and saved to assemble? Unless they are invested in Treasurys, they aren't doing too well. In private-sector America the math leads to the grim prospect of working longer and living poorer.

In public-sector America things just get better and better. The common presumption is that public servants forgo high wages in exchange for safe jobs and benefits. The reality is they get all three. State and local government workers get paid an average of $25.30 an hour, which is 33% higher than the private sector's $19, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. Throw in pensions and other benefits and the gap widens to 42% …

* As opposed to a subject matter degree like math, physiscs, history, economics, etc.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I'm not saying all teachers need pay raises... I'm saying good teachers need to get paid more than average teachers, and bad teachers need to be canned.  Of course, the NEA would never go for that in a million years.



i've never seen a teacher fired who didn't commit a crime

[roo_ster]

I'm not saying all teachers need pay raises... I'm saying good teachers need to get paid more than average teachers, and bad teachers need to be canned.  Of course, the NEA would never go for that in a million years.



i've never seen a teacher fired who didn't commit a crime

I see nothing to disagree with there.

I think that in a privatized/voucher-type system, we would see average teacher pay rise and the number of "accredited" teachers shrink as the chaff was separated and burned off.

[MillCreek]

I am interested to read this thread, given that Ms. MillCreek is an elementary school teacher of many years experience.  She has a BBA, worked in business, then went back to school and got a bachelor's in education and began her teaching career fifteen years ago.  She has an elementary, secondary and special ed certification and two years ago, got her national boards in teaching.  She typically spends several hours a week outside the classroom working on behalf of her students.  Her colleagues seem equally dedicated.

I have more years of experience and more degrees in my field than she does, but I don't currently have a job.  She does.

[dm1333]

jfruser,

Can I ask what your point is?  My geography degree is also useless outside the GIS market.  A business degree isn't much use at an engineering firm.  Are you saying that teachers should be paid less or just that bad teachers should be fired?

Of course none of this has anything to do with the OP.

[AZRedhawk44]

jfruser,

Can I ask what your point is?  My geography degree is also useless outside the GIS market.  A business degree isn't much use at an engineering firm.  Are you saying that teachers should be paid less or just that bad teachers should be fired?

Of course none of this has anything to do with the OP.

There's a difference between a "real" degree in math/science/economics/business/etc and a degree in "education."  Someone with a degree in education doesn't have mastery over a subject matter that they are supposed to educate.  The best math teachers (the ones that teach the AP high school kids, for example) have masters/doctorates in math or sciences.  The best literature teachers (again, the ones that teach the AP high school kids) have masters/doctorates in humanities or literature studies or history.

The worst teachers I've ever had, have had degrees in education.  They taught from the course book rather than from their own insight into the course material.

While a degree in education may give insight into the learning process and a means to statistically analyze methods of instruction... it is of little value to a lone teacher in a classroom trying to impart Trigonometry, Organic Chemistry, Physics, or Shakespeare.  Especially if the teacher has no understanding of tangents, covalent bonds, newton's laws or iambic pentameter.

However...

Those teachers with degrees in real fields have the potential to re-shape their careers to other fields besides teaching.  A Geography degree might be useful if you wanted to work for the USGS, for example, or the Park Service.  Perhaps in travel or tourism, too.  Depends on what you focused on in your Geography degree... I dunno.

A teacher with a degree in literature could open a book store, or compile a book with witty quotes for various social occasions, or write for a newspaper, or something else.

An education degree though... doesn't exactly translate to any other skill but teaching.

Seems to me an education degree is only suited to perhaps K-6 education where the knowledge in all subject fields is taken for granted and not as demanding as real sciences or humanities studies.

[dm1333]

There's a difference between a "real" degree in math/science/economics/business/etc and a degree in "education."  Someone with a degree in education doesn't have mastery over a subject matter that they are supposed to educate.  The best math teachers (the ones that teach the AP high school kids, for example) have masters/doctorates in math or sciences.  The best literature teachers (again, the ones that teach the AP high school kids) have masters/doctorates in humanities or literature studies or history.

The worst teachers I've ever had, have had degrees in education.  They taught from the course book rather than from their own insight into the course material.

I'll agree with this statement. Many schools are now offering specialization in their education degrees.  Mine will be geoscience.  My bachelors' in geography would suffice to be an earth science teacher but it has been 17 years since I have used my degree so I need to brush up.  I would shy away from blanket statements about education degrees just like I would stay away from making blanket statements about teachers. 

[Gowen]

My sister has been special ed school teacher for over 20 years, she makes over 50k for 9 months work a year.  She has a 403b and the other perks associated with a government retirement.  The state of Nevada is in as bad a shape as most of the other states out there.  Our Governor has refused to raise taxes to cover the shortfalls.  He has ordered hiring freezes and cuts in budgets and pay cuts.  My sister is going to have to take a 6% pay cut.  Do I bemoan my sister?  Certainly not, she picked that profession.  She knew what it paid when she got into it, as well as all school teachers did.  If they wanted more money they should have moved up into Admin or done something else. 

[roo_ster]

jfruser,

Can I ask what your point is?  My geography degree is also useless outside the GIS market.  A business degree isn't much use at an engineering firm.  Are you saying that teachers should be paid less or just that bad teachers should be fired?

Of course none of this has anything to do with the OP.

An education degree or cert is a "barrier to entry" credential, not a degree that has much use outside the education bureaucracy.  A geography degree may be limiting, but it is assumed that there is a useful body of knowledge and skill transfer for successful graduates.

Contrast this (ed degree) with, say, a degree in mathematics, which is much more flexible and opens up other doors: tech firms, aerospace/defense, computer science (especially in the old days, when CS was taught from math depts), etc.  IOW, the market acknowledges that a math degree has a much greater value than an ed degree. 

I think it is safe to aggregate public school teachers under the same umbrella as gov't employees when I write that I think the overall salary level is to a great extent inflated by political clout, rather than how the market values their skills.

I think if the education segment were exited by gov't and made more market-sensitive, that the following would occur:
* An upheaval in the composition of the teaching personnel
   - Deadwood has to move on
   - Parasitic bureaucrats whacked
   - Quality teachers move up (pay, responsibility, status, etc.)
   - A whole new contingent of folks enter the teaching market who were previously barred due to cert barriers and/or disgust with the gov't & union shenanigans
* The average salary would rise, with the departure of the aforementioned deadwood & parasites