Author Topic: Stupid European Regulators  (Read 2153 times)

Northwoods

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Stupid European Regulators
« on: January 28, 2014, 11:09:11 PM »
http://www.pitpass.com/50838/Newey-raises-safety-fears

There has not been a driver fatality in Formula 1 since Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (and very nearly Rubens Barichello) at the Imola race in 1994.  

For this year the formula has been changed to 1.6l turbo-charged engines, and they include both kinetic and thermal energy recovery systems (turbo-compounding with heat from the engine, plus regenerative braking among other kinda cool tech stuff).

However, they morons that wrote a lot of the regulations required the placement of the batteries that store the energy from the turbo-compounder and regenerative brakes underneath the gas tank.  Apparently they can't read the news or else they'd have seen the reports on the Tesla cars that burned to the ground after their battery packs were pierced, or the 787's that had batteries spontaneously ignite.

Most likely the same basic types of batteries are involved (lithium-ion or an evoloution)).  These batter ies are so much lighter than anything else I can't imagine them not using them.

When (not if) one of these batteries goes into thermal runaway, whether because of an internal fault, or accident damage, it will cook off rather vigerously, and will cause the gas tank to go up with it.  Whatever containment they use is unlikely to be good enough for such a scenario.  If a driver is lucky it'll be Niki Lauda redux.  But I really fear that in the next year or two tue streak of no driver fatalities will end, and as a direct result of these idiotic regulators.

F1 has gotten to the point that any desire I might have once had to work for a team is gone.  The overall regulations so strangle the designers that they can't do more that pick away at the margins.

If it were up to me they'd get so many BTU's worth of energy for the race (from whatever source they want), they have pass certain crash tests, and they must be driven by a human.  Beyond that, anything goes.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:13:05 PM by sumpnz »
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Firethorn

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2014, 11:25:49 PM »
You might be more interested in LeMan's races then.  Somebody's racing a hybrid in it this year.

Boomhauer

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 12:03:31 AM »
Quote
The overall regulations so strangle the designers that they can't do more that pick away at the margins.

NASCAR too has gone that way.

It makes for a boring race...might as well be watching slot cars.

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bedlamite

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 04:40:27 AM »
.

If it were up to me they'd get so many BTU's worth of energy for the race (from whatever source they want), they have pass certain crash tests, and they must be driven by a human.  Beyond that, anything goes.

That's why I wish can-am was still around.
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French G.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 05:32:27 AM »
On the fatality thing Zanardi had every right to die, alive due to excellent emergency medicine. Maria De Villota died more than a year after her testing crash but from damage to the brain incurred in the crash. Racing is dangerous.  I try to keep track but still forget a lot of the names of deceased drivers because I suck at names.

I would imagine that F1 technical directors will be able to manage the fire risk, probably be evolving since this whole powertrain is experimental.

The BTU's per race somewhat happens now that re-fueling doesn't exist. I know they want to hybrid powertrain just to pander to development of street cars but the energy use will become very similar across all mfgs. unless one wants to dial the fuel back and put around to make it home. I'd prefer the opposite, whatever boost you think the motor will hold together on, re-fuel every other lap if you want, and go hard.
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French G.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 06:45:55 AM »
I'll confirm my weirdness by saying that I love the Caterham's approach to the design requirements. I'll love it more if they get their pace up above mobile chicane level.

Weber's gone so that makes me a default Kimi fan. Take a few years off to rally, show up with a hurt back, not getting paid, still drive the car to death. I still think he drove as hard as he did just to stick it to Lotus more since they had to cough up 50K euros for every point he scored.
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Northwoods

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 10:35:50 AM »
On the fatality thing Zanardi had every right to die, alive due to excellent emergency medicine. Maria De Villota died more than a year after her testing crash but from damage to the brain incurred in the crash. Racing is dangerous.  I try to keep track but still forget a lot of the names of deceased drivers because I suck at names.

I would imagine that F1 technical directors will be able to manage the fire risk, probably be evolving since this whole powertrain is experimental.

The BTU's per race somewhat happens now that re-fueling doesn't exist. I know they want to hybrid powertrain just to pander to development of street cars but the energy use will become very similar across all mfgs. unless one wants to dial the fuel back and put around to make it home. I'd prefer the opposite, whatever boost you think the motor will hold together on, re-fuel every other lap if you want, and go hard.

Zanardi's crash was in Indy Cars, not F1.  De Villota, still not sure if that should be classified as a driver fatality.  She was not at a race weekend, it was a practice run at a private test session, and she (probably) screwed up.  And she didn't die for a year after for reasons that might only be partly from accident.  I've always been skeptical of that ruling.

As far as BTU's per race, I'm saying you can use gasoline, alcohol, diesel, jet fuel, electricty, coal, whatever.  Consume those BTU's in whatever kind of motor you want (ICE - Otto or Diesel cycle with any cylinder count and configuration and displacement, gas turbine, A/C motor, hybrids, etc).  IOW let the engineers run wild and find the best solution as proven on the track.  With a total BTU based limit the power will be limited, and effeciency will still be key.

For fire risk, see Adrin Newey's comments in the article I linked in the OP.  The mn is the best deaiger in the history of F1, and he says if a battery cooks off to just watch it burn as you're not going to be able to put it out.  That would freak me out if I were a driver.
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French G.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 01:40:43 AM »
Hmm, no idea why I had it in my little brain that Zanardi was an F1 crash. Probably because it happened in Europe and most of the coverage of it I saw was while watching F1. I disagree on De Villota, you suffer massive head trauma and a year later something inside goes pop, seems related.

I've been watching the coverage of the Jerez tests like watching a couple of locomotives heading towards each other on ice. Ugly. Renault and specifically Red Bull must be in quite a thrash right now to get things sorted out. Put all the spin on it they can, but their competitors in Ferrari and Mercedes have huge amounts of data now, including full race simulations. Quite a game of catch up.

Looks like yours and everyone else's fears of powertrain reliability are founded, no carbeques yet, not really sold that the fire risk is extreme. Newey has had several disaffected commentary about that and the chassis design even though he had input in the process. I get the feeling he's not happy, probably with the eccentricities of upper management. I focus on different dumb regulations, specifically the tires being made fragile to promote competition. Still not solved as witnessed by Rosberg taking a 200mph spin at the post season tire test. They got very lucky this past year that no one got hurt because of artificially degraded tires.

As far as the rules, as much as I think run what ya brung would be cool, it will never happen. Even F1 is a spec series. Always will be. Primary reasons are the same everywhere. Cost control, safety, and competition. No one will watch and sponsors will vaporize if one manufacturer spends 10 billion and goes out to lap the field. 105% rule and all,you need to keep the backmarkers in it both financially and with cost, hence the spending caps. No one will watch a 4 car race. I've been to them, they suck. As a small child I did watch a series with no motor rules and have seen someone lap up to 2nd place. Boring. Safety, you have to have cars with specified safety requirements, similar mass, speed, and body style compatibility. I've gotten up close looks at sheared off roll cages made out of .065 tube because somebody wanted to be lighter. Solid beam front axles made out of titanium failing at the welds whilst at 160mph. Titanium crankshafts for a chevy V8. You cannot stop racers from spending money in an effort to kill themselves. If you give them a relatively safe spec to work in they will then spend the same money to find every inch of the rules but hopefully the rules will be intelligent enough to minimize the catastrophe.
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Firethorn

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 02:19:48 AM »
If you give them a relatively safe spec to work in they will then spend the same money to find every inch of the rules but hopefully the rules will be intelligent enough to minimize the catastrophe.

Trying to mate the two ideals, what if you make them use a 'stock' rollcage system for safety, limited the BTUs as mentioned, along with a set budget?

If a particular fuel isn't used by a racer in a year, increase it's BTU allotment by a little.  If it's used by more than half, decrease it's BTU allotment.


French G.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2014, 10:56:12 AM »
Anyone still following F1 for the season? I am, summer break is killing me. Been waking up way too early to watch live streams of practice, qual and the race. So far I'd say the tech has been quite interesting. No spontaneous battery car-b-ques but there have been several fires from the 10 pounds of crap stuffed into a 5lb sock. A root cause of heat management seems to be most of the new tech's problems, or at least race ending problems. On other problems I'm not sure how you drive a car at that level with a computer deciding how much braking you will get. Some seem to have integrated the regen braking and hydraulic braking well, others, not so much. If I'm going 170 I don't need surprises when I mash the brakes.

Hamilton/Rosberg, I am generally favorable to both drivers, not really a Rosberg fan so much but he has done enough to keep Hamilton honest. Not sure if it is a driver style thing that has been a reliability difference but the difference in failure rates is pretty striking. I think that Hamilton will be champion barring reliability. Not really sure what Rosberg was whining about with team orders in the last race, he never got close enough to be let by and had he been let by it would have been for position.

Ricciardo, I was/am a huge Mark Webber fan so naturally I have to take up the cause of his younger Aussie replacement. The fact that he is trouncing his 4 time champ teammate doesn't hurt. And that I regard his teammate as a bit of a spoiled young brat doesn't make me the least bit happy inside, no, not at all.  =D
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Northwoods

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 11:41:20 AM »
I've only been able to watch maybe 3 races.  No satellite TV at home.  Reading all the race reports though.  But, a local brewery was sounding willing to DVR them for me.  They'd show it around 4PM the Monday afterwards.

I'm hoping to see Hamilton take the Championship this year.  If Red Bull can make a competitive car next year I'd be happy to see Ricciardo take it.  But mostly I want to see Williams back at the top.  Be nice to have McLaren return to competitive form. Maybe Honda will be a positive influence there.
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French G.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2014, 11:55:15 AM »
www.eplsite.com   and  www.time4tv.com are two euro sites that give me a passably ok stream of Sky Sports coverage.

Really hoping to see Raikonen get up to form. He's struggled with the car a lot, or perhaps has shown the true state of the Ferrari. Despite Alonso's insufferable attitude that has ruined several teams it must be said that he is going to get everything out of a car and he has put that Italian scrapheap up higher than it has a right to be with regularity.

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1. Malaysia air
2. Renault

Really, way to suck renault.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2014, 11:55:43 AM »
My age is showing (again). IMHO F1 hasn't been fun/interesting since the days of Jackie Stewart and James "Hunt the shunt" Hunt.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2014, 12:20:07 PM »
You might be more interested in LeMan's races then.  Somebody's racing a hybrid in it this year.

Porsche has a hybrid now, and it is fast. Not your granola crunching hippy's Pious!
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Firethorn

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2014, 03:46:27 PM »
Porsche has a hybrid now, and it is fast. Not your granola crunching hippy's Pious!

I've been studying the issue a bit and I've noted that many super-cars today are now hybrids.  The technology has reached the point that hybrid technology increases power and such rather than drains it.  They're adding hybrid components because it makes the car faster, even helping with braking and such by reducing the beating the braking system takes.

Also, re-reading the complaint about putting the fuel tank on top of the battery system - that makes sense to me now; you're putting all the flammable stuff in one spot.  Put a firewall there to protect the drive just in case, it avoids issues.  It's not like the car will be able to keep going if either combusted, and you put the battery on the bottom because if it gets punctured it's at least a slow fire.

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Re: Stupid European Regulators
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2014, 11:04:39 PM »
Does anyone follow air racing? That is an engineer's/designer's/mechanic's race. Lots of fun, and you can get up close to the planes and talk to the pilots and mechanics.
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