Author Topic: Antibiotics and the Immune System  (Read 4348 times)

Snowdog

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Antibiotics and the Immune System
« on: January 30, 2012, 08:27:40 PM »
My wife and I recently had a somewhat heated discussion on this subject and I'd like to make sure I actually do know what I'm talking about (at least concerning this).

A few weeks ago, my 3-year-old daughter brought home a nasty bug that caused issues with the sinuses and throat (diagnosed with pharyngitis and sinusitis). 
I went to the doctor, was prescribed antibiotics and felt much better after a couple days (finished the prescription, of course).

A few days after I finished my last pill, the symptoms came back (the illness was now prevalent where I worked).  My wife (a nurse) told me to see the doctor again, which I did.   Once again, I was given a script for antibiotics and took them, soon feeling better. 

Keep in mind I was being exposed to others that had the same thing.  Soon after finishing the 2nd course, I slowly developed the same symptoms again... the same as all the others at work.  Here's where the disagreement began.

My wife told me that I should again see the doctor for a prescription for antibiotics and I refused.  I told her that from my understanding, I keep catching the same bug as I haven't an adequate immunity against it due to the antibiotics.  She, being an RN and working in the medical field, thought this line of reasoning is absurd.

I like to think of things in easier-to-understand analogies.  I like to think of the immune system as the police force of a large city and antibiotics as hired professionals occasionally employed when the police force is overwhelmed.  If the police force continues to rely on the contract professionals to deal with any civil disruptions, the department will become weak and ineffective on their own.

Yeah, I know that's a rather simpleton way of looking at it, but it makes sense to me. 
I would like to see if I fight this bug off on my own and develop an immunity to it in the process (and not catch it again). 

Does it make sense to try to ride it out and fight this bug on my own?  My symptoms are a wet cough, lots of phlegm, a slightly sore throat and an occasional fever (101 or so). 

I guess I just wanted your opinions if a person can essentially catch an illness again if the use of antibiotics are involved.   My wife seems to think what's "going around" are actually many different bugs, but I can't see why it can't be just one particularly insidious pathogen.

I Googled this and the best thing I could come up with that supported my opinion was an article concerning how overuse of antibiotics could possible limit immunological response.  Any thoughts?


Azrael256

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 08:54:04 PM »
Some infections cannot be handled by the immune system and require antibiotics.

Most infections can, but symptoms can be dramatically reduced, and life-threatening complications avoided with careful antibiotic use.  There is no real scientific evidence that this weakens the immune system overall (some antibiotics are pretty horrible and destructive, but I doubt you're in that area right now), but I suppose it could prevent the immune system from developing antibodies to a particular bug.

Your symptoms, however, sound a bit like a recurrent sinus infection.  They tend to exhibit that pattern of antibiotic susceptibility followed by resurgence when the regimen is finished.  That is the same insidious bug, not picking something else up each time.  The cough may indicate something else as well.  I tend to follow the Cold -> Sinus -> Pneumonia pattern myself, so it makes sense to me, but I'm not a doctor.

It is entirely possible that you've had three different, unrelated infections, or you could be the breeding ground for the next staph superbug.  A basic physical exam will not determine this with great accuracy.

Find an ENT and get a culture.  They tend to be pretty good at that kind of thing.  It's the only way to be sure you're going to get the right medication.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 09:04:10 PM by Azrael256 »

Triphammer

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 09:03:27 PM »
 Off topic alert!
 I haven't  used many antibiotics in the last two or so years since hearing about colloidal silver. I drink about a half ounce a day, every day & don't seem to be affected by all the various coughs, colds general maladies the guys at work are always coming down with. My grandson lives with me & gets the same dose. The neighbors kids always have runny noses & he doesn't seem to come down with it. Don't know why it works, Don't know if it is what keeps me healthy but I keep using it. Used to run across the border for antibiotics 3 to 5 times a year, don't need to go much anymore.

dogmush

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 09:08:23 PM »

charby

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 09:14:18 PM »
Used to run across the border for antibiotics 3 to 5 times a year, don't need to go much anymore.

That right there worries me.

When you go to the antibiotics, did you know if was bacteria in the 1st place? Gram negative or gram positive? Did you know how long you needed to take the antibiotic for to be effective?

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bedlamite

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 09:40:07 PM »
. My grandson lives with me & gets the same dose.

 =(
Kidney and liver damage are common side effects.
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RevDisk

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 09:47:08 PM »
=(
Kidney and liver damage are common side effects.

Most common is turning blue-grey.

Why would anyone voluntarily turn themselves a different color?  Eat plenty of carrots, turning orange is at least reversible.
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charby

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 09:53:04 PM »
Look Papa Smurf

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 09:59:15 PM »
That right there worries me.

When you go to the antibiotics, did you know if was bacteria in the 1st place? Gram negative or gram positive? Did you know how long you needed to take the antibiotic for to be effective?

Meh.  Most of that stuff is pretty easy to figure out in many cases, if one does the research.  I know of no doctor who does a culture before prescribing any antibiotic.  

And I readily confess that I'm quietly hoarding some cipro I was prescribed but ended up not needing last spring.  Won't be good forever, but it's handy to have available, although of limited utility as it's just about never a first-line type drug.

There has to be a sensible balance between "nonono, go to the doctor who went to school for a decade to learn how to read that infections in x anatomical location tend to be caused by y type of bacteria and are treated with z course of antibiotic" and "Yay! Mexican drugs! I have some levaquin I can take for my headaches!"

The balance is important if for no other reason than to know that antibiotics are often not effective against sinusitis, they usually don't make much of a difference in severity or duration, and therefore usually shouldn't be treated with antibiotics.  Ditto bronchitis, pharyngitis (absent strep), pretty much any non-specific URI.  There's always the caveat for "high-risk individuals,"  which is why I started researching this stuff--I got stuck in the higher-risk category, and got seriously over-prescribed abx any time I went to urgent care instead of the pulmonologist.  

Which isn't a big issue--except when other stuff that might be helpful is under-prescribed.  Like "take some tylenol, it'll help with the pain."  Or hot compresses or using a neti-pot or whatever.  Or other types of drugs entirely, if there's an underlying problem other than drippy-coughies.

Or, a little good research is also handy in a situation where someone has caught something from his kid who came home with it "a few weeks ago" and has gone through two complete courses of antibiotics to treat his sinusitis and has had it flare up again twice after completing them.  Unless your definition of a few weeks is different from mine, it sounds like you were prescribed "here, feel like you're doing something" drugs.  To have a chance of being effective, antibiotics for a sinus infection need to be taken for at least ten days.  The second course, after the first once failed, should have lasted at least fourteen days. Give it three days to flare up again and we're looking at this should have been going on for at least a month or so.  

I'm going to go with your abx haven't helped your sinus infection because a) It's not an infection that is still bothering your sinuses, but resultant inflammation or b) you have a perfectly treatable sinus infection, but you're poking at it without actually killing it by not taking antibiotic long enough.

PS: I dislike posting this kind of know-it-all post.  I really don't, know less than a lot of people here, and don't mean to any snarkiness or pretense at expert knowledge.  I understand that z-packs are a whole exception to a lot of the timing rules on abx, and z-packs can be used for sinusitis, although my doctor doesn't favor that route for reasons he probably learned in his decade+ studying this stuff  :laugh:  I'm sure pharmacology will be along shortly with more accurate information.  But I'm pretty confident that most of the above is good thoughts supported by decent info, so I'll go ahead and post.  Any hubris implied by the tone is hereby disclaimed.  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 10:25:33 PM by BridgeRunner »

BridgeRunner

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 10:00:13 PM »
Why would anyone voluntarily turn themselves a different color?  Eat plenty of carrots, turning orange is at least reversible.

Now that's just silly.  Who ever heard of an orange smurf?


Triphammer

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 10:13:00 PM »
Bridgerunner just said most of what I was typing while I was typing. Never had a Doc do labs before writing a scrip for amoxicillin. If that didn't work then Z- pack. Same thing I do when I go to Mex for antibiotics. Low dose silver just seems to work. That smurf guy did high dose high concentration & turned blue. The interview I heard he said he feels fine & doesn't care he's blue, He feels great!

BridgeRunner

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »
Bridgerunner just said most of what I was typing while I was typing. Never had a Doc do labs before writing a scrip for amoxicillin. If that didn't work then Z- pack. Same thing I do when I go to Mex for antibiotics. Low dose silver just seems to work. That smurf guy did high dose high concentration & turned blue. The interview I heard he said he feels fine & doesn't care he's blue, He feels great!

Dude.  I have no idea how you got that from what I said. 

Amoxicillan doesn't work for everything.  Nor do z-packs.  They act on specific types of bacteria.  That tend to be associated with specific types of illness.  And most of those "I have the oozy-sneezy-ouchies" shouldn't be treated with antibiotics. 

Triphammer

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 10:22:22 PM »
As I said I don't do that much anymore. Never did the sneezy ouchie thing with antibiotics. But my agreement with you was that doctors don't usually do labs before the first or second or even third round on anitbiotics. If it goes that far,  I've never let it get that far w/o seeing or getting whoever to a doctor, Medical professionals WILL be involved.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 10:27:37 PM »
Gotcha.

Snowdog

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 10:38:10 PM »
This whole mess started a little before Christmas when I was prescribed amoxicillin and a couple weeks later I was prescribed augmentum, both for around 8-10 days.   During the first visit, I actually did get swabbed for strep (which of course came back negative).

I've decided I'll simply rough it out like nature intended unless it becomes debilitating (which in neither case it was).  

Thanks for the info, folks.

Triphammer

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 10:38:59 PM »
good

Viking

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 10:49:29 PM »
Now that's just silly.  Who ever heard of an orange smurf?


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GigaBuist

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 11:10:56 PM »
I know of no doctor who does a culture before prescribing any antibiotic.

The last time I had an antibiotic prescribed to me the doc did do a culture for strep before writing the script.  Came back negative but he gave me the cephlex anyway.  I had a fever pushing 104 degrees.  I don't go to the doc for sniffles.

Called back 3 days later to tell me the other culture came back.  It was strep but 'group D' -- not usually found in humans, and that's why the original culture came back negative.

Yeah.  Somehow I got the kind of strep usually found in horses and cattle.  No wonder it knocked me on my arse.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 11:42:19 PM »
Drink silver - it's a natural cure!

If drinking silver comes naturally to you.  =|
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2012, 11:50:05 PM »
Most common is turning blue-grey.

Why would anyone voluntarily turn themselves a different color?  Eat plenty of carrots, turning orange is at least reversible.



One reason...

Also, convinantly reversable.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Antibiotics and the Immune System
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2012, 12:57:20 AM »
As others have said, it may not be infections, unless the doc has gotten a culture to prove it.

Also, if you've got sinus trouble, it could be the swelling and mucus etc. that just keeps on coming.

Unless there's fever, or extreme pain etc. Ask the doc for an Rx for generic fluticasone spray and try that for a week. I'd get twice or thrice yearly "sinus infections".  And instead of going for the doc for an Rx antibiotic I'd start using it at the first rasp or tickle when I felt a "sinus infection" coming on.

I also got a pneumovax shot at the end of last summer, and haven't had a "infection" yet either.
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