Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Battle Monkey of Zardoz on June 25, 2010, 02:49:20 PM
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If this had happened to me. I dare not post on here what a choice I would have had to make n
Big bad cops.
(CN) - Police Tasered an 86-year-old disabled grandma in her bed and stepped on her oxygen hose until she couldn't breathe, after her grandson called 911 seeking medical assistance, the woman and her grandson claim in Oklahoma City Federal Court. Though the grandson said, "Don't Taze my granny!" an El Reno police officer told another cop to "Taser her!" and wrote in his police report that he did so because the old woman "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," according to the complaint.
Lonnie Tinsley claims that he called 911 after he went to check on his grandmother, whom he found in her bed, "connected to a portable oxygen concentrator with a long hose." She is "in marginal health, [and] takes several prescribed medications daily," and "was unable to tell him exactly when she had taken her meds," so, Tinsley says, he called 911 "to ask for an emergency medical technician to come to her apartment to evaluate her."
In response, "as many as ten El Reno police" officers "pushed their way through the door," according to the complaint.
The grandma, Lona Varner, "told them to get out of her apartment."
The remarkable complaint continues: "Instead, the apparent leader of the police [defendant Thomas Duran] instructed another policeman to 'Taser her!' He stated in his report that the 86 year-old plaintiff 'took a more aggressive posture in her bed,' and that he was fearful for his safety and the safety of others.
"Lonnie Tinsley told them, 'Don't taze my Granny!' to which they responded that they would Taser him; instead, they pulled him out of her apartment, took him down to the floor, handcuffed him and placed him in the back of a police car.
"The police then proceeded to approach Ms. Varner in her bed and stepped on her oxygen hose until she began to suffer oxygen deprivation.
"The police then fired a Taser at her and only one wire struck her, in the left arm; the police then fired a second Taser, striking her to the right and left of the midline of her upper chest and applied high voltage, causing burns to her chest, extreme pain and to pass out.
"The police then grabbed Ms. Varner by her forearms and jerked hands together, causing her soft flesh to tear and bleed on her bed; they then handcuffed her.
"The police freed Lonnie Tinsley from his incarceration in the back of the police car and permitted him to accompany the ambulance with his grandmother."
Tinsley says the cops capped it all off by having his grandmother "placed in the psychiatric ward at the direction of the El Reno police; she was held there for six days and released."
"As a result of the wrongful arrest and detention, the plaintiff Lona M. Varner suffered the unlawful restraint of her freedom, bodily injury, assault, battery, the trashing of her apartment, humiliation, loss of personal dignity, infliction of emotional distress and medical bills."
They seek punitive damages for constitutional violations, from the City of El Reno, Duran, Officers Frank Tinga and Joseph Sandberg, and 10 Officers Does.
They are represented by Brian Dell of Oklahoma City.
I'll post the Link from Drudge later n
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Here's a link.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm
I'm by no means a police basher, but I'm hard pressed to find anything that might indicate the police were justified here.
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why did the cops show up? what did the young man ask for when he called 911? i'd love to hear it
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Wow.
I wish I could say I was astonished. But I'm not.
What appalls me even more than the fact that this happened... is that a total of 12 officers were present and NOT ONE OF THEM acted to bring the mob of wolves under control and behave like Peace Officers rather than Law Enforcement Officers.
Here is evidence that contradicts the often shouted defense that "most/not all cops are bad," and defends the assertion that pitbull-style enforcement is the desired norm in police training academies today.
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why did the cops show up? what did the young man ask for when he called 911? i'd love to hear it
he called 911 "to ask for an emergency medical technician to come to her apartment to evaluate her."
Probably local area SOP to send police as initial 1st aid responders to 911 calls, to make sure it's safe for paramedics and to arrive first and do what they can while paramedics are en-route.
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why did the cops show up? what did the young man ask for when he called 911? i'd love to hear it
According to the article, the grandson requested an EMT to come observe his grandmother because he did not know, nor could she tell him what medicine she had taken.
Even if that is not the case (911 tapes should clear that up), I cannot imagine any circumstances that would vindicate police tasering a unarmed, bed-ridden, 86 year old woman.
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"Don't Taze my granny!" an El Reno police officer told another cop to "Taser her!" and wrote in his police report that he did so because the old woman "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," according to the complaint.
This is from the Onion right? That would be worthy of many lolz if this was fake.
The commanding officer, the officer who fired the tazer, and the officer who stepped on her oxygen hose should all be fired and charged with assault. Yet how much anyone wants to bet all that happens is these officers get "re-trained" on the use of their tazer. Even though there is no training to teach common sense.
Yet another case of a coward cop who can claim "he was in fear for his life" ;/
Little girls hiding behind a badge and a gun.
Edit: I suxor at the spellingz
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. . . The police then proceeded to approach Ms. Varner in her bed and stepped on her oxygen hose until she began to suffer oxygen deprivation . . .
Which section of the Oklahoma Police Manual suggests suffocation as a way of achieving compliance with disabled & bedridden octogenarians?
Seriously, if the story is an accurate portrayal of events as they happened, there's one group of cops who should not only be fired, but they should be facing criminal charges.
And if the brass defends them . . . they're bad cops, too.
As is every other cop in the department who allows this crap to go on. :mad:
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As is every other cop in the department who allows this crap to go on. :mad:
12 cops.
12.
12! [barf] :'( :mad:
How is it possible, other than widespread institutional and even inter-institutional intent, for this to be an acceptable behavior?
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there any other stories about this?
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If the actual report says the 86 y/o "took a more aggressive posture in bed" then... Wow.
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WTF.
The woman may have had senile dementia in some form.
Inexcusable.
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Though the grandson said, "Don't Taze my granny!" an El Reno police officer told another cop to "Taser her!" and wrote in his police report that he did so because the old woman "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," according to the complaint.
Well, rather than jump to conclusions, I think we should wait until we know just how aggressive her posture was. Maybe she was fashioning her oxygen line into a series of nooses, waiting to sucker the police in so she could garrote the dozen of them because undoubtedly she is a wily character and capable of greater physical agility.
Never underestimate the martial capacities of a bed ridden oxygen-masked 86 year old lady on multiple medications. Dangerous thugs, the lot of them. Best to call in the SWAT team or feds for such extractions.
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Well, rather than jump to conclusions, I think we should wait until we know just how aggressive her posture was. Maybe she was fashioning her oxygen line into a series of nooses, waiting to sucker the police in so she could garrote the dozen of them because undoubtedly she is a wily character and capable of greater physical agility.
Never underestimate the martial capacities of a bed ridden oxygen-masked 86 year old lady on multiple medications. Dangerous thugs, the lot of them. Best to call in the SWAT team or feds for such extractions.
AH! That's the explanation. Somehow I overlooked the fact she was on multiple medications.
One of them must have been PCP.
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there any other stories about this?
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0625/officers-taser-86yearold-disabled-woman-bed-lawsuit/ (http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0625/officers-taser-86yearold-disabled-woman-bed-lawsuit/)
Lawsuit
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny.pdf (http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny.pdf)
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I was just trying to figure out what sort of 911 call would trigger 10 or 12 officers to show up? Was there some screwed up communication with the 911 dispatcher? Were they just bored? I seems strange to me that many officers had nothing better to do even if it was a smaller town.
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And yes, before anyone asks, the cops IN THIS INCIDENT are 100%
wrong
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And yes, before anyone asks, the cops IN THIS INCIDENT are 100%
wrong
presuming the one sides account is accurate
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I was just trying to figure out what sort of 911 call would trigger 10 or 12 officers to show up? Was there some screwed up communication with the 911 dispatcher? Were they just bored? I seems strange to me that many officers had nothing better to do even if it was a smaller town.
Population 16,212 in 2,000. Barely larger than my town, and yet they'd have to pull in county, DPS, and the university police to get 12 patrol officers without waking anybody up. Having that many readily available sounds like a speed trap town.
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why did the cops show up? what did the young man ask for when he called 911? i'd love to hear it
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=masthead_topten (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=masthead_topten)
There's a link to the 911 call there. The grandson seems to indicate that his grandmother had said her life was over and had taken drugs. He wanted someone out even though she had a dnr order. Would make someone think, especially heard second hand, that she was attempting suicide. Might warrant a trip to the happy house but not what they claim happened. There seems to be only one side to this out there.
Edit: Actually, there are police statements in the article on that link, from last December. Unsure that the oxygen line was intentially stepped on and just one excerpt..
Police have admitted using a Taser to incapacitate the suicidal woman Dec. 22. Officer Duran wrote in a police report she pulled a kitchen knife from under her pillow and threatened to kill him. "I tried talking to Varner and calm her down but nothing would work," he reported.
The officer reported she took "a more aggressive posture on the bed" when other officers arrived. He reported she raised the knife above her head and said, "If you come any closer, you're getting the knife." He reported he feared she would injure someone.
Attempted suicide by cop?
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oh wait how come no one mentioned a knife? grandson and lawyer forgot?
and suicide? pills?
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The sad thing about this affair is that when I was in LE, over 40 years ago, I would have handled the situation by myself. If she had a knife, I would have taken it away from her. After that we'd have had a cup of tea while we waited for the paramedics.
I just can't believe how the police departments have turned into a bunch of wimps and scaredy cats.
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Clearly, cops are out of control everywhere. They're being fueled by a never ending avalanche of laws criminalizing EVERYTHING.
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generally in my experience whenever someone starts a statement with "clearly" its anything but. in much the same way a person who starts a statement with "to tell you the truth" is letting you know that many times he isn't so he has to qualify when he is
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generally in my experience anyone who addresses the construction of a statement and ignores the content is devoid of ideas.
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Clearly, cops are out of control everywhere. They're being fueled by a never ending avalanche of laws criminalizing EVERYTHING.
The first sentence is inflammatory and hyperbole.
The second statement is true, more or less.
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The police report paints a dramatically different picture.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner
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The police report paints a dramatically different picture.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner
Yes; before, we might have thought that the officer's English teachers were competent. Now we know better.
Still, they haven't disputed that the woman was 86, heavily medicated and bedridden. If she'd even been standing at the time, I would have a lot more sympathy for the cops not wanting to wrestle her for the knife, but laying down is a position of extreme disadvantage in a knife fight.
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And police don't lie on reports? I remember a drug raid in Atlanta that was all based on a lie. Cops on trial, and should be put in prison or excuted for killing a person on a bridge in New Orleans, lying on the report, superiors who were not there lied on reports to aid in covering up.
I'll wait to see what the final court outcome is. Sorry. A cops word no longer has any value to me. The report could be accurate, could be false. Id like to know more facts. But from all the info provided so far, it's pretty damning for all the officers. IMO
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Id like to know more facts.
thats a new trend
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generally in my experience whenever someone starts a statement with "clearly" its anything but. in much the same way a person who starts a statement with "to tell you the truth" is letting you know that many times he isn't so he has to qualify when he is
Clearly, shootingstudent is extremely urgent is extricating truth but generally howitzers indicate frequent heartburn. :lol:
funny the words that pop into yer head when just staring at the keyboard. lots intent yes why!?
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thats a new trend
No. You not helping lay down the blue line of cops never do wrong would be a change.
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No. You not helping lay down the blue line of cops never do wrong would be a change.
In CSD's defense he doesn't go to the mat for cops patrolling the border the way he does for other cops. Like most folks, a one dimensional caricature he is not.
[For my own part, I am just the opposite: cops who deal with non-citizens get more slack due to the fact that they are not dealing with American citizens, most times. I prioritize citizens and their liberties higher than non-citizens every day of the week and twice on Sundays.]
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[For my own part, I am just the opposite: cops who deal with non-citizens get more slack due to the fact that they are not dealing with American citizens, most times. I prioritize citizens and their liberties higher than non-citizens every day of the week and twice on Sundays.]
You'll get no arguement/complaint from on that.
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are there genuine times when cops cross the line? sure . however they represent a small percentage of the times great outrage is feigned or attempted.
some is authority/father issues/ a lot has to do with folks who never got over losing that bag of primo bud. its a shame those kinda folks dilute and diminish the truly valid important cases. in much the same way a false claim of rape or abuse harms the cases of the legitimate ones. i dare say i've had my share and part of a couple other guys share of police interaction and mine all came from doing the crime not from following the oracle balko's semi factual work. one of the worst casualties of the "wod" has been the relationship betweeen cops and noncops/"victimless criminals"
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some is authority/father issues/ a lot has to do with folks who never got over losing that bag of primo bud
An ad hominem if I ever heard one.
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"Aggressive" invalid status aside, the fact that the cops used a taser in an environment with oxygen and flammables (i.e. bedsheets, clothing, etc.).....could have ended up a whole lot worse....
Another thing.....when tasers were first introduced, they were NOT meant as a "compliance tool", but as an option to lethal force (taser an armed suspect instead of wrestling or shooting them). LEO agencies need to reasess their ROE involving taser use.....
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are there genuine times when cops cross the line? sure . however they represent a small percentage of the times great outrage is feigned or attempted.
some is authority/father issues/ a lot has to do with folks who never got over losing that bag of primo bud. its a shame those kinda folks dilute and diminish the truly valid important cases. in much the same way a false claim of rape or abuse harms the cases of the legitimate ones. i dare say i've had my share and part of a couple other guys share of police interaction and mine all came from doing the crime not from following the oracle balko's semi factual work. one of the worst casualties of the "wod" has been the relationship betweeen cops and noncops/"victimless criminals"
I'd sign on to most of that, including the bit about authority issues. Lotsa folks can't abide being told what to do, no matter the circumstances.
For my own part, my "authority issues" came after my time in the service and their nature has nothing to do with resentment over being told what to do. I figure that pretty much everyone on Earth answers to someone: management, customers, family, etc. There are very, very few who don't. Maybe solitary subsistence farmers/hunters. And many are in positions of authority to direct others' actions. Also, most folks wear some sort of uniform. Sometimes it is called "business casual," sometimes "work clothes" or such.
Again, my authority issues are a bit different. See, I had the honor of working under the authority of some terrific men. Very high quality folks who earn much less than the average LEO. The sort of folks who inspired confidence in their abilities and that you wouldn't get killed due to their dumbassery or malfeasance. They may have had rank, but they earned their authority the hard way.
Most LEOs don't measure up(0). Most are truly lesser men and it doesn't take long to figure it out. Yet, most of these lesser men act as if they had earned the authority the claim rather than merely borrowing it from the state & the citizenry. When it comes down to it, I am not surprised when lesser men abuse their authority. I see many of them kinda like soft-headed children running around with chain saws: amoral and not too bright, but dangerous, nonetheless. Best to not come to their attention.
Where I differ is that I think it occurs much more often than you acknowledge. The vast majority of the time, it happens to dirt bags nobody cares about, not even other dirt bags. Only the most egregious/outrageous ever see the light of day and most times even those are discounted, due to the fact that the LEOs are sticking it to---you guessed it--a dirt bag with a record.
The big stinks are caused when LEOs treat regular, decent, taxpaying folk like they are used to treating dirt bags. The LEOs are all sorts of surprised by the reaction, since that is how they treat any and all that come their way. Their question seems to be, "Why should this person get privileged treatment?"
We hear from LEO-excusing apologists "What do you expect to happen?" if one doesn't grovel in the face of LEO authority. "He was lucky he didn't have the crap beat out of him even more." That is, IMO, the counsel of toadies to LEOs and LEO authority.
(0) A USAF buddy in jump school had the same issue after he completed SF Scuba before jump school. He thought the Black Hats a bunch of ridiculous puffed up jokes after Scuba. In his case, he had trouble hiding it.
An ad hominem if I ever heard one.
I'd have to agree, though the accusation of ad hominem does not undermine the validity of the charge.
Stealing someone's property by means of authority is still stealing, from a moral standpoint. Doesn't matter if it a bag of buds, cash a man was to use to purchase material for his business, or the destruction caused by a "dynamic" raid when a knock, a warrant, and an open door would have sufficed.
Folks should get angry over theft and folks should be suspicious of authority held by those in government. The Founders sure were.
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This was a grandMOTHER right? If so, what exactly was she doing in WW2 killing 4 Japs as claimed she said in the police report?
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This was a grandMOTHER right? If so, what exactly was she doing in WW2 killing 4 Japs as claimed she said in the police report?
Regrettably, sometimes in war you use politically incorrect terms and you kill people.
Back on topic, if you can't subdue a bedridden 86 yr old woman ( knife or not ) perhaps a police career isn't your best choice.
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This was a grandMOTHER right? If so, what exactly was she doing in WW2 killing 4 Japs as claimed she said in the police report?
By my calcs, she would be 21 in 1945, thus 18 in 1942. I know the OSS hired females, but I don't think (m)any female field agents were sent to the Pacific. ???
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i think granny had a bit or maybe more than a bit of dementia going on. that can be fun to handle. we had a guy like that out here kill another resident of the home they lived in a while back body slammed the smaller guy to death
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See, I had the honor of working under the authority of some terrific men. Very high quality folks who earn much less than the average LEO. The sort of folks who inspired confidence in their abilities and that you wouldn't get killed due to their dumbassery or malfeasance. They may have had rank, but they earned their authority the hard way.
Most LEOs don't measure up(0). Most are truly lesser men and it doesn't take long to figure it out. Yet, most of these lesser men act as if they had earned the authority the claim rather than merely borrowing it from the state & the citizenry. When it comes down to it, I am not surprised when lesser men abuse their authority. I see many of them kinda like soft-headed children running around with chain saws: amoral and not too bright, but dangerous, nonetheless. Best to not come to their attention.
you were lucky to have known those kinda leaders. it sets a high standard and likely the average cop , heck average man, will fall way short. I tend to think of cops as just the average guy with the same limitations. We do expect them to be a lot and some of them are not gonna rise to the occasion. we get what we pay for. i'd rank the joys of teaching in an inner city high school as comparable to being a cop. if there are bad ones we bear some of the responsibility if we tolerate em . see a bad one? do something about it. in a life that had a ton of interaction i saw very lil in the way of egregious behavior . i saw most guys that were decent and tried some that were low performers and a few that were outstanding. i did run into the same problem cop that gave the open carry guys the blues in manassas. shes a real blank with a john wayne attitude. her union keeps her employed. the one thing i would change about cops after the war on drugs would be the union nonsense. that as always protects and enables the less competent
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not to accuse the op of having an agenda or anything... >:D
but what a surprise that grandson and the lawyer forgot to mention granny had a knife.purely an accidental oversight i'm sure. take it from a guy who like old folks and worked in a home some of em are mean and aggressive. at least she didn't have a gun. heck cops shoulda just left and let her die. or let grandson handle her. oops he couldn't he hada call 911
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So, Granny had a butter knife under her pillow?
Being from El Reno, she was apparently familiar with the local cops' SOP.
DD >:D [popcorn]
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am i the only one thinking of, reno 911? [tinfoil] (http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/reno_911/index.jhtml)
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You know. It really does not matter what said dirtbag did or what he deserves to get. I hear the excuse all the time "well he deserved the cops thumping him, because he screwed up". That sounds all fine and good, but its BS. You see, these things called rights are constant. They apply to everyone, even the knucklehead to screwed up and is suspected of a crime. The least amount of force necessary..Not lets use more force becasue he deserves it.
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You know. It really does not matter what said dirtbag did or what he deserves to get. I hear the excuse all the time "well he deserved the cops thumping him, because he screwed up". That sounds all fine and good, but its BS. You see, these things called rights are constant. They apply to everyone, even the knucklehead to screwed up and is suspected of a crime. The least amount of force necessary..Not lets use more force becasue he deserves it.
What "less force" did you imagine?
One other thing I think is common to people who like to assume the worst about cops is they assume the cops are hand to hand combat experts in any situation with any weapon. (Yeah, that is an exaggeration, just like all the ones about blue lines and 'apologists'.)
Just the idea that the steak knife and potential suicide were not mentioned in the op says a lot to me. I was wondering why a bunch of cops showed up to tase granny. That provides a better explanation that anything else I have seen.
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it was just an oversight that they forgot about the knife surely the op woulda mentioned it if his "research" had uncovered it.
i have a friend who whined to me from jail about the broken ribs he had from "those pigs!" tackling him. i had to point out to art that he had a knife and told them he was gonna gut them. i woulda shot him. funniest part is art was a cop till better living through modern chemistry culled him from the leo herd. his resentment comes from his partner dropping the dime on him
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see a bad one? do something about it.
some is authority/father issues/ a lot has to do with folks who never got over losing that bag of primo bud.
I wonder why anyone would be hesitant to say anything about being mistreated by a cop? Not because cops word > non-cops word in a court (try saying a cop lied about how fast you were going sometime, see how well that works). Certainly not fear of retribution from the cop (after he gets done with his paid vacation administrative suspension or from his buddies. Perhaps it's because so many people assume anyone who has a negative interaction with the cops is just a criminal or otherwise "had it coming." I'm reminded of the pastor who got shot by the undercovers that rolled up on him after he left an atm.
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But he is not saying anything about the cop. His lawyer is. And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.
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And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.
not if all they are angling for is a outa court settlement payday. after all they can release a partial story and it will be ceased upon by a certain segment of the public eagerly leaving out the knife is strategically convienent
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leaving out the knife is strategically convienent
Kinda like making up crap to raid a 90 year old womans house for drugs?
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i take that to mean you aren't comfy dealing with the reality of your own op? understandable.
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Maybe she was one of these......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygy7UDADXDg
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And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.
not if all they are angling for is a outa court settlement payday. after all they can release a partial story and it will be ceased upon by a certain segment of the public eagerly leaving out the knife is strategically convienent
For what purpose?
Are you saying he's trying to taint the jury pool?
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no he just wants to squeeze the insurer to settle
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This incident reminds me of:
"I'm the one man you don't boss, Woodrow."
Augustus Macrae, on his deathbed.
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http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget)
Cops say she pulled a knife on her.
Link also has the 911 call.
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http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget)
Cops say she pulled a knife on her.
Link also has the 911 call.
What exactly is wrong with lying on your bed not wanting to be bothered ???
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fnewsok-photos%2F1004219%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=66cc7c0862aee214d75cbbc482517392bb38c6a2)
Duran reported Varner had looked him in the eyes after he arrived at the apartment and said to him, "If you try and get the knife I will stab you and kill you. I killed four Japs in World War II and I would not bat an eye killing you."
Duran also reported, Varner talked of killing police again after being taken to Parkview Hospital in El Reno. "Varner told me she was going to kill every officer that was in her apartment when she got out. Varner told me she was going to snap my neck like a twig just like she did during World War II."
Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0sXhIreTA
It seems to me the citizens of El Reno need to have a long hard talk with their police department over the definitioin of terms like "Credible Threat" and "Minimum necessary force"
Even assuming the police report is 100% true and not skewed towards their side at all, (A stech for me as when they were writing it they had to have realized they'd just tasered and hospitalized a granny. CYA time if there ever was) but even assuming that, using a Taser on an invalid was a bad call. this is one of those times that LEO's need to suck it up and do it the hard way a little. You can't tell me that none of those officers could just take that knife away. Yoiu don't have to be Chuck Norris to out knife fight a bed-ridden 90 year old.
On a related note, from the story:
He said Varner has had a series of health problems, including strokes. She uses an oxygen machine to help her breathing and can barely walk by herself. She uses an electric cart to get around and can see out of only one eye.
If ever there was an time to look at an attempted suicide and just say "OK, you had a good run" this was it. As a society, we need to stop expecting cops, EMT's and the like to deal with stupid stuff like this and "save her life" =| . That's part of what leads to stupidity such as this.
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What exactly is wrong with lying on your bed not wanting to be bothered ???
maybe you should ask grandson that. hes the one that called the cops cause he couldn't handle granny. but his selective amnesia might kick in
"You can't tell me that none of those officers could just take that knife away. Yoiu don't have to be Chuck Norris to out knife fight a bed-ridden 90 year old."
i've been stabbed it hurt coulda been worse likely woulda hurt granny worse than a taser to be jumped and again grandson wasn't up to trying it but the cops are? heck in theory she likes the grandson
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i've been stabbed it hurt coulda been worse likely woulda hurt granny worse than a taser to be jumped and again grandson wasn't up to trying it but the cops are? heck in theory she likes the grandson
I've been stabbed too, yes it hurts. However if you can't dis-arm a 90 year old woman, without weapons or injury to either party, you have no buisness being a police officer.
And it might have hurt her worse, of cource if we're going to go with mights the taser could have killed her, or set the O2 rich environment on fire, or stepping on her O2 line could have killed her.
I'm not saying they needed to tackle and Rodney King her, but weapons weren't needed.
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hard for me to say for sure i wasn't there and don't know what the sop in that dept is for escalation of force. and i'm not sure i wanna take grandson and the ambulance chaser as quoting gospel
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hard for me to say for sure i wasn't there and don't know what the sop in that dept is for escalation of force. and i'm not sure i wanna take grandson and the ambulance chaser as quoting gospel
Not for me. I've worked enough security and .mil guard gigs to stand by this statement when she's got a knife:
However if you can't dis-arm a 90 year old woman, without weapons or injury to either party, you have no buisness being a police officer.
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so what were your rules on escalating force and how do you imagine they apply here? last time i checked taser came before the laying on of hands and with document-able good reason
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:281919
http://www.westmont.il.gov/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC={B6B1B81D-14FF-4B37-B93B-88E8E89B1DEB}&DE={7E057ACC-5D68-4778-AD52-8A7922FCCA82}
http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=98583
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18168-tasers-safer-than-batons-and-fists.html
did your security and military gigs involve using tasers and give you a different perspective based on actual use?
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so what were your rules on escalating force and how do you imagine they apply here? last time i checked taser came before the laying on of hands and with document-able good reason
Escalating Force? You're kidding right? A bed-ridden 90yo woman with a kitchen knife is not a credible threat to a healthy man. She just isin't. Again neither of us were there, but I imagine (if I can borrow some of your snark here) that the first step might be to wait 5 min and see if she forgets you're there, or that she's reliving WWII. Or back everyone out of the room in an attempt to calm her down, or wait for the paramedics, because remember this was a medical call, or take the knife on those super tactical Kevlar gloves LE supply houses sell, or hell for that matter tell her Pres. Roseveldt needs her service in the ambulance downstairs. This wasn't an EOF scenario, because (I repeat myself) there was no credible threat to anyone in the room.
did your security and military gigs involve using tasers and give you a different perspective based on actual use?
Nice articles. Can we just assume here that I did a quick google and turned up a couple articles where Tasers killed someone, or do I actually have to do it for you?
And yes, my jobs did include Taser training. I've used one, and been hit with one before. In general, it's a great less-lethal weapon. It has it's limitations, but so do all weapons. The key here is that a Taser is a WEAPON not a compliance tool. Weapon. Inside it's design paramaters it does a good job, but it's being used outside that either do to lack of training or lack of caring, IDK which.
But back to Granny the Ripper. Having done a fair amount of physical restraining, and having some good pratical knowledge on the subject (Daddy, just being restrained in the past is not actually good knowledge on it) these officers used a weapon where they shouldn't have.
A single LEO, much less 10, should be expected to disarm and contain a 90YO bed-ridden women without a weapon or injury to either party. If they can't, they're not good cops. That's not subjective on my end, it's an either/or thing. If they really couldn't contain this women without weapons, they lack the skillset to be good cops.
end of line
ETA: Just so I'm not accused of ducking your question, the rules that I was trained on for EOF are actually pretty long and convoluted. (.mil for you) but they all start with the presence of a threat. One didn't exist here. Granny wasn't going to leap up and actually stab anyone.
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in a world ruled by common sense . i'd agree. but around here anyway they get told to zap before they grab em. and the lawyers are what made it that way. me i've been restrained the old school way and i've been zapped much rather be zapped. hurts a lot less. heck granny got hurt worse getting grabbed and cuffed than she did getting zapped. and if she survived it as close to deaths door as she was how bad could it be?
i feel bad for her thats shes alienated her own family that they are compelled to call the authorities but hey some of the old ladies get mean
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i feel bad for her thats shes alienated her own family that they are compelled to call the authorities but hey some of the old ladies get mean
Listen to the call.
Familly called for an Ambulance or paramedics, because they were concerned for her health and wanted medical profesionals to check her out.
Extreme alienation there.
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i'm going from memory here but doesn't grandson say "i can't get her to do anything".
we lost a great guy here a year or 2 ago he had a fight with his family and said he was gonna end it all. he went and borrowed a gun and his family "couldn't do anything with him" and called the cops. he ended up dead when he refused to drop the gun and turned towards em. heck if granny had been younger she might have fared worse
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i'm going from memory here but doesn't grandson say "i can't get her to do anything".
we lost a great guy here a year or 2 ago he had a fight with his family and said he was gonna end it all. he went and borrowed a gun and his family "couldn't do anything with him" and called the cops. he ended up dead when he refused to drop the gun and turned towards em. heck if granny had been younger she might have fared worse
Morale of the story?
Don't ever call the cops. They'll either Tase or shoot your family.
Somehow, I don't think that's what you were going for.
The Grandson says:" I can't get her to tell me what she took." That's as close as he comes to your quote. The first line in that call was "I need an Ambulance" from the grandkid, and the last, from the operator was: "I alread started the Ambulance".
Why exactly were there 10 cops in the apartment? What value did the bring to the EMS service? Is this some new defribulation technique that I'm unaware of? This was a non-LE situation, that they forced themselves into, over-reacted to, and now are trying to justify. They could always tell the guy "Hey, at least we didn't shoot her" right?
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[popcorn]
Good stuff
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Dogmush, I'm not agreeing with the cops on this one, nor defending them. But, in our system, EMS doesn't enter the scene until it's safe. Potentially suicidal subject, regardless of who they might be, equals unsafe scene. We stage until the cops secure the scene and clear us in.
That being said, these cops stepped on their wedding tackle while wearing cleats. It's not gonna end well for them, nor should it.
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oh i think it'll be a small settlement and i doubt they can do much to the cops if they can point at their sop and say "see here it says taze em before you grab em" . in fact they coulda probably shot her over the knife if that was what they were all about.
round here they respond cops to those kinda suicide calls too. again with reason . when one of the lost boys i counsel gives me one of those late nite calls i wear a vest when i show up and i'm allegedly their friend
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maybe you should ask grandson that. hes the one that called the cops
No, he called for an ambulance. ;/
Thankfully, I do know an old time sheriff who doesn't escalate a situation just because he can get away with it. Unfortunately, he is not our sheriff but the sheriff of the neighboring county instead.
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you call and say someone wants to has tried to off themselves you are getting the cops and its not cause they like to watch. suicidal folks sometimes decide to take someone with em. some get a ll testy. ever see the movie patch adams? that was based on a true event
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You guys are missing the point. (well AmbulanceDriver I don't think is actually missing it, but his post has some stuff I'd like to respond to)
There are certainly some times that a LE presance is needed for an attempted suicide. And if C&SD talks in person like he types, a vest might be a good idea when he visits. (=D Little levity there, don't take it too serious) There is a vast array of possible scenarios in the world, and we couldn't possibly war-game all of them. I'm hinting at a "D" word here that I'll get back to in a moment.
I'm not talking about C&SD's suicudal folks in VA, or "some suicide calls" I'm talking about this one right here. The one in El Reno where they Tased the old lady in bed.
Daddy said:
in fact they coulda probably shot her over the knife if that was what they were all about.
And he's right. Just go over to THR and ask, a knife is a lethal weapon, bang, DRT. But they didn't. So they at least have an inkling of what discretion means. (Yeah I used the "D" word) So, knowing that they weren't going straight to max force, WTF were they thinking using that weapon. I'm not going to presume to know what they were thinking, although I have a few educated guesses.
The (first) Problem here is that these officers utterly failed to use their discretion properly. They acted all out of porportion to the threat. Some of the follow up problems are that folks tend to one or more of the following stupid reactions: Defend the officers; "You don't know what happened/what it's like", Remove all discretion, attempt to crucify the officers, seek a lawsuit lottery, blame the department, and any of a number of other self-serving or stupid things.
I said earlier:
However if you can't dis-arm a 90 year old woman, without weapons or injury to either party, you have no buisness being a police officer.
And I stand by that. I don't actually think these guys couldn't have solved this without a taser, I think they chose not to. They made a bad choice and hurt someone, and need to bear the consequences of that. Not, probably*, being drummed out of the force, and feeling self-righteous as the city pays for their mistake, but somewher in between. A couple weeks unpaid time off, and retraining on decision making and risk assesment are, again probably*, where I think it should go.
Also:
Granny was hurt, and deserves some recompse for it. That being said a tase and a couple days in the hospital are not worh millions of dollors. The city should pick up her medical bills (including PTSD treatment if needed, although with as many Japs as she has under her belt she should be fine), any damage that was done to her house in the running around, and a public apology. I'm against Punitive damages in cases like this, because unless the officers pay it themselves who is being punished?
* On those probably's; the Police force needs to take a long hard look at why their officers discretion failed so utterly. If it's bad training or policies due to over-lawyering of society, the need to adjust that. If it was laziness, they need to adress that. If it was part of a pattern of JBThuggery, they absolutly need to adress that. And they need to do it in a way that the public can see they are trying to fix it. Everyone (semi-reasonable) understands that you can't please everyone, and I think society can take some small amount of police oafishness, but there needs to be public and positive response to limit that oafishness. And even then this was pretty far beyond the pale.
Finally, police agencies, and their apologists, everywhere would be better served to pay closer attention to their public image. They can't really afford for too much of the public to actually believe that unaccountable thin blue line stuff, or they will be unable to function. I don't know what percentage of the public not having tryst is going to be "critical mass" but I'm pretty sure it'll be uglier then Manchester after a losing soccer match to find it by experiment.
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That being said, these cops stepped on their wedding tackle while wearing cleats. It's not gonna end well for them, nor should it.
With end results of some of the recent high profile "police misconduct" events we've had here in the Sooner state I wouldn't bet on that.
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It seems to me that what these police did was fully compatible with police practices all over the country. This particular case is an extreme version of those police practices, but it is still consistent. The main part of that is the police do NOT approach anyone with a knife. Yeah, they might have just disarmed the old woman, but in general, they just don't do that by choice without use of guns or tasers from everything I have seen. It may suck in this case, but to me, this tactic sounds pretty familiar.
If you know of cases or stories where police approach, attack, and disarm knife wielding people without guns or tasers, I'd like to see it.
The other issue I heard was why so many cops showed up. I think in a small town if a dispatcher sends out the message of a person with a knife, backup needed, I can see a bunch of cops showing up. I really doubt the all showed up because they heard a bedridden grandma was threatening an officer.
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only on nash bridges. [popcorn] (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115285/)
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I once had a fight with a really old lady, I would have won but she ran over my foot with her wheel chair. :cool:
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I once had a fight with a really old lady, I would have won but she ran over my foot with her wheel chair. :cool:
Bet the cops in the OP would have shot out her tires..... :lol:
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What I don't get is what was she hurting? She could have just been left alone to her own fate. But, alas, the nanny state decides when you live, die, or ride the lightening!
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What I don't get is what was she hurting? She could have just been left alone to her own fate. But, alas, the nanny state decides when you live, die, or ride the lightening!
I don't disagree with that. The only thing I would say is that once you call the police, you give up on the notion of being left alone. Or in this case, the son gives up on any say in what happens and turns it over to police/EMS.
This whole thing sucks, but sounds really consistent with other incidents I've heard of.
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some choice is good some choice is bad. granny's type of choice is bad
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some choice is good some choice is bad. granny's type of choice is bad
Why?
(Assuming you're talking about the choice to pop a bunch of pills)
It's a topic for another thread, but I'd like to tase the grandson for even calling EMS for her considering her DNR and overall health. He dropped the ball there.
We could go off on a huge tangent here on weather LE should come to this kind of thing, but it won't change the basic fact that those cops used a weapon on someone that was not a credible threat. That's unaccaptable. They used their discretion poorly and need to be held accountable. Apologize and hide behind SOP's and other incidents all you want.
They used a weapon on her. She did not pose a credible threat.
double plus ungood
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Why?
(Assuming you're talking about the choice to pop a bunch of pills)
It's a topic for another thread, but I'd like to tase the grandson for even calling EMS for her considering her DNR and overall health. He dropped the ball there.
We could go off on a huge tangent here on weather LE should come to this kind of thing, but it won't change the basic fact that those cops used a weapon on someone that was not a credible threat. That's unaccaptable. They used their discretion poorly and need to be held accountable. Apologize and hide behind SOP's and other incidents all you want.
They used a weapon on her. She did not pose a credible threat.
double plus ungood
i shoulda used the sarcasm smiley
i think we need to let folks alone who make a reasoned choice that they have had enough. our society has it bassackwards in that area
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Gotcha.
There, my friend, we agree completly.
[e-toast]
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a valuable lesson here? if you chose to end it be careful who you tell.
i do generally oppose folks offing themselves when going through an episode of depression theres a very interesting study about folks who survived going off the golden gate bridge and almost to a man/woman they had changed their mind on the way down
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a valuable lesson here? if you chose to end it be careful who you tell.
i do generally oppose folks offing themselves when going through an episode of depression theres a very interesting study about folks who survived going off the golden gate bridge and almost to a man/woman they had changed their mind on the way down
Well, if you're healthy enough to go jump off the GG bridge, you're probably not all that bad off. =|
Note to self: when on my deathbed and wanting to be left alone, keep something more than a knife under the covers. ;)
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Well, if you're healthy enough to go jump off the GG bridge, you're probably not all that bad off. =|
Note to self: when on my deathbed and wanting to be left alone, keep something more than a knife under the covers. ;)
Detcord? =D
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a loaded depends? =|
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It seems to me that a lot of this hinges on whether or not you think police should go hands on with someone wielding a knife, or if it's ok for them to use other means such as a taser.
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It seems to me that a lot of this hinges on whether or not you think police should go hands on with someone wielding a knife, or if it's ok for them to use other means such as a taser.
And whether a bed ridden, heavily drugged 86 y/o woman can really "wield" a knife in a way that presents a credible threat.
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And whether a bed ridden, heavily drugged 86 y/o woman can really "wield" a knife in a way that presents a credible threat.
And whether using a Taser around an oxygen source and flammable items (bedsheets, Kleenex, etc.) is a good strategy.
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Bedsheets and Kleenex? Seriously?
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And whether a bed ridden, heavily drugged 86 y/o woman can really "wield" a knife in a way that presents a credible threat.
This.
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Bedsheets and Kleenex? Seriously?
On their own...not so bad. Add an enriched-oxygen environment....you could have problems pretty quick....
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On their own...not so bad. Add an enriched-oxygen environment....you could have problems pretty quick....
Ja. Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wMRL2bVKc4 (oxygen saturation flammability test)
That said, I still wouldn't volunteer to try to disarm someone of a bladed weapon by hand short of having a stab vest with throat/face protector and cut resistant arm and hand guards on.
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Once you have an oxygen enriched environment, it really doesn't matter what is around that is flammable. Most everything is flammable.
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those concentrating machines must be safer than the old o2 tanks i see folks smoking with them
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those concentrating machines must be safer than the old o2 tanks i see folks smoking with them
Not really: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7QpSfvyOek
Note that she states she was using a concentrator, not a tank that the poster or the news lady mistakenly stated.
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For safety purposes at work, anything over 23.5% O2 is considered an elevated O2 atmosphere. It has been awhile, but I was thinking that when you get over 30% or so, all sorts of stuff that normally isn't that flammable becomes very flammable. Our company deals in pure industrial oxygen at say 600 psig. I have seen the results of a fire in an oxygen compressor. It isn't pretty. Some of the metal just burns, a lot of it melts and sprays all over the place once a hole is burned out. We put safety barriers around all those compressors for good reason. No one is allowed in while they are running.
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Detcord? =D
Claymore so I can take someone with me!
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That said, I still wouldn't volunteer to try to disarm someone of a bladed weapon by hand short of having a stab vest with throat/face protector and cut resistant arm and hand guards on.
You can solve two thirds of that by not leading with your face.
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We could go off on a huge tangent here on weather LE should come to this kind of thing, but it won't change the basic fact that those cops used a weapon on someone that was not a credible threat.
Just to make note of the fact that if she was suicidal, than she most certainly was a credible threat, to herself. Police are not taught to put people who threaten themselves lower on the force continuum than those who a threats to others.
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You can solve two thirds of that by not leading with your face.
Was that serious or sarcastic? Are you implying that just because someone is in bed they can't swing their arm (with a freaking kitchen knife at the end of it) around?
On a serious note raise your hand if you've ever taken a bladed weapon defense course. I did as part of my .mil training back when I stood watch as a rover with an M14 and frankly you should never discount someone with a knife just because you don't think they are as strong or nimble as you are.
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I have also taken an actual knife defense course. And one thing they reiterated time and again: you're going to get cut. There is simply NO sure fire way to go hands on with anyone with a knife and make certain you won't get cut.
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Note to self: when on my deathbed and wanting to be left alone, keep something more than a knife under the covers.
Detcord?
I was thinking a .44 Colt Dragoon, with cartridge conversion ;)
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I've never understood the suicide being illegal thing.
Sure it can leave a mess behind and sometimes others are at put at risk but fer Pete's sake.
If someone just has to jump off the bridge let 'em.
No sense in threatening to shoot them if they don't stop trying to kill themself.
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Was that serious or sarcastic? Are you implying that just because someone is in bed they can't swing their arm (with a freaking kitchen knife at the end of it) around?
Are you serious? Did you not notice that Plastic Man's defining characteristics were his masculinity and fictionality? This being both real and a woman, the length of her arms is constant, and since she was laying down, she wasn't going to leap into a sudden fleche to close the gap. Keep everything but your protected hands and forearms out of her reach, and she'll have to put her hands into your reach to even try to attack.
I have also taken an actual knife defense course. And one thing they reiterated time and again: you're going to get cut. There is simply NO sure fire way to go hands on with anyone with a knife and make certain you won't get cut.
There's no sure-fire way to go to the store and make sure you won't get run over, either, but sometimes you've got to take a little risk. Every knife defense course I've seen focuses on keeping any cuts you do take superficial, and most of them assume that you don't have the advantage of Spectra gloves and other protective gear. Those are game-changers in the same way that taking an Abrams to a pistol duel slants the odds in your favor a bit.
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>Those are game-changers in the same way that taking an Abrams to a pistol duel slants the odds in your favor a bit.<
Ahhh... KD5NRH believe in fighting fair, I see... >:D
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That said, I have never heard of police taking down knife wielding people with hand to hand techniques if they had a choice.
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That said, I have never heard of police taking down knife wielding people with hand to hand techniques if they had a choice.
That's because it's a really stupid thing to do. It only takes one flick of the knife to cut an artery in the wrist, neck, maybe accidentally fall on the knife and take a stab to some vital organs. All of a sudden it's not just a minor cut. What started as "I'll just take this knife away" ends up being "I hope EMS arrives or I'm gonna die."
This cannot be stressed enough. A knife is a lethal weapon. And deliberately getting up close to anyone with a knife is a possible life-ending move for the officer. I would not expect any officer to do so if any other options are available.
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In this case, they used a taser and stepped on her O2 line.
I guess any case that involves "granny with a knife" is gonna be lose-lose for the cops.
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Yeah pretty much. The route they chose sucked, but the other choices aren't really any better.
Do nothing or try to talk her down, she kills herself. Bad choice.
Use hand to hand. An officer or the woman takes a lethal cut, and someone dies. Bad choice.
Use an ASP or other impact weapon to knock the knife out of her hand. Get accused of beating a poor old woman. Bad choice.
Use Taser to incapacitate her and then take the knife. Creates bad public image. Bad choice, but has the highest chance of resolving the situation with the least amount of physical harm to either the subject or the officers. So that's what they did.
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That's because it's a really stupid thing to do. It only takes one flick of the knife to cut an artery in the wrist, neck, maybe accidentally fall on the knife and take a stab to some vital organs. All of a sudden it's not just a minor cut. What started as "I'll just take this knife away" ends up being "I hope EMS arrives or I'm gonna die."
This cannot be stressed enough. A knife is a lethal weapon. And deliberately getting up close to anyone with a knife is a possible life-ending move for the officer. I would not expect any officer to do so if any other options are available.
If you accidentally fall on a knife trying to disarm a (I feel the need to re-iterate) heavily medicated bed ridden 86 y/o, I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
Yeah pretty much. The route they chose sucked, but the other choices aren't really any better.
Do nothing or try to talk her down, she kills herself. Bad choice.
Use hand to hand. An officer or the woman takes a lethal cut, and someone dies. Bad choice.
Use an ASP or other impact weapon to knock the knife out of her hand. Get accused of beating a poor old woman. Bad choice.
Use Taser to incapacitate her and then take the knife. Creates bad public image. Bad choice, but has the highest chance of resolving the situation with the least amount of physical harm to either the subject or the officers. So that's what they did.
I disagree. It's sad that the cowardice of these officers is being so strongly defended, but I guess that's our society...
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It's sad that the cowardice of these officers is being so strongly defended, but I guess that's our society...
They went home alive. Nothing else matters, to them and those wh defend them ???
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If you accidentally fall on a knife trying to disarm a (I feel the need to re-iterate) heavily medicated bed ridden 86 y/o, I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
Being kinda glad if a police officer dies tells me a lot about you.
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Being kinda glad if a police officer dies tells me a lot about you.
Misrepresenting what your opponent said is not a valid debate tactic. :rolleyes:
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That's actually pretty much exactly what he said.
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They went home alive. Nothing else matters, to them and those wh defend them
granny made it course once sher\ pulled a knife they coulda shot her if they followed the rules in the book
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Being kinda glad if a police officer dies tells me a lot about you.
That's not what he said. Don't pull an Obama
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I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
isn't ambiguous
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That's not what he said. Don't pull an Obama
Care to let me in on exactly what the hell "I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool." does mean then?
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In a case like this, the LEO's could take a lesson from prison CO's....
They tend to use riot shields (or other items like ballistic vests) to body block and immobilize a knife-wielding person until they are disarmed...and since this lady was bedridden, such a tactic would be even more successful....
Not arguing the need for force to disarm her....just the use of tactics that could have ended in death and injury to more than one person....
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I said that if a theoretical cop couldn't disarm granny without accidentally falling on a knife and sustaining a lethal wound that cop (referred to as "you" for grammatical convenience) deserves what he got. And I stand by that.
I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
isn't ambiguous
Just like how the Bible says "There is no God" right? Just ignore the context and what comes before.... ;/
Seriously, stop trolling. It's getting old.
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I said that if a theoretical cop couldn't disarm granny without accidentally falling on a knife and sustaining a lethal wound that cop (referred to as "you" for grammatical convenience) deserves what he got.
Well...no, you did not say "he deserves what he got". You did say you would be "glad."
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Well...no, you did not say "he deserves what he got". You did say you would be "glad."
:facepalm:
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if they used the techniques co use on inmates granny would be deceased when they threaten to bring out the tac teams almost all inmates comply
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:facepalm:
Am I wrong here? We can all read right?
Quote from: Balog on Today at 11:38:16 AM
If you accidentally fall on a knife trying to disarm a (I feel the need to re-iterate) heavily medicated bed ridden 86 y/o, I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
Does it say "he deserved what he got" in that sentence anywhere? Am I missing some words here that some of you can see?
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I like Darwin awards, even when the nominee wears a badge. I like them even when the nominee is a grunt Marine like myself, if that is needed to stop you from distorting my words to try to be able to slander me as a cop hater so you can disregard my opinion without trying to refute it.
CSD: wtf does how inmates are treated relate to this?
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I like Darwin awards, even when the nominee wears a badge. I like them even when the nominee is a grunt Marine like myself, if that is needed to stop you from distorting my words to try to be able to slander me as a cop hater so you can disregard my opinion without trying to refute it.
CSD: wtf does how inmates are treated relate to this?
Distort your words? Seriously?? You're the one who actually is claiming to have stated something completely different from what you actually posted.
Quote from: Balog on Today at 11:38:16 AM
If you accidentally fall on a knife trying to disarm a (I feel the need to re-iterate) heavily medicated bed ridden 86 y/o, I'm kinda glad to see you removed from the gene pool.
I said that if a theoretical cop couldn't disarm granny without accidentally falling on a knife and sustaining a lethal wound that cop (referred to as "you" for grammatical convenience) deserves what he got.
DOES NOT COMPUTE.
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I like Darwin awards, even when the nominee wears a badge. I like them even when the nominee is a grunt Marine like myself, if that is needed to stop you from distorting my words to try to be able to slander me as a cop hater so you can disregard my opinion without trying to refute it.
CSD: wtf does how inmates are treated relate to this?
you need to read seekers post to understand he suggested using the techniques co's use
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You're trying pretty hard to be offended, aren't you Ragnar?
"You" can and is contextually sensitive, like many English words. Just as "my" can denote ownership (my shoes) or affiliation (my wife). This absurd argument you're trying to make is no different than a radical feminist claiming the phrase "My wife" is an indication of a chauvinist attitude of women as chattel. It's pretty obvious to anyone not desperately seeking a way to ad hom their debate opponent so as to be able to ignore the arguments presented.
If this was a story about a stupid burglar and I had said "If you die from a shock trying to steal electrical lines, I'm glad to see you go" and had then later reiterated that sentiment if not exact phrasing and said "if you die stealing copper lines you got what you deserved" I'm pretty sure you'd know exactly what I meant.
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"Glad" and "Deserved" are not contextually sensitive. And you're trying pretty hard to avoid admitting you are trying to go back and change what you said after realizing you did say you would be glad if someone died.
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I would be glad if someone that stupid died. I've always said Darwin Awards make me happy.
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Regardless what some might want to see happen in these situations, the way I see it these cops followed the same procedure that (as far as I can tell) every single other police department in the nation uses. They pulled out their less-than-lethal and non-physical-injury-producing taser and zapped her. You may not like the procedure, but I see no reason to call them cowards for doing what they are told/trained to do.
We seem to go through some version of this every time a taser article is posted where someone who is not physically imposing is tased. I don't disagree that there are often better ways to do things, but I also hear quite a bit that LEO's are taught to use a taser before any physical contact. I guess what I am getting at is if you want to blame someone for these tactics, look at the bosses and politicos, not the officers. Also, if you want officers to put themselves at risk more than they do, you might put your vote in for paying them more when you get the chance.
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I think I fall out on the side of "If you can't get a knife away from an 86YO bedridden woman on O2 without resorting to a taser, you ought to be in a different line of work." Something that can neither overpower them not out-think them. Maybe interior decorating or a florist.
I mean, really. Are these jokers using their heads for anything other than a hat rack?
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i don't think its a case of they couldn't but rather they are trained to do things a certain way. and it would appear that tazers haave reduced injuries on both sides of the badge
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Cops make way, way more than I did as a Marine and have far less chance of getting killed by hostiles.
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i don't think its a case of they couldn't but rather they are trained to do things a certain way. and it would appear that tazers haave reduced injuries on both sides of the badge
That is what I am saying. They are taught/trained to not even try to disarm a person directly. A lot of people don't seem to like it, but that seems to be the common tactic across the country. I would also add that in many places we don't pay cops enough to ask them to put themselves at further risk just because people don't like tasers (in general that is).
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Cops make way, way more than I did as a Marine and have far less chance of getting killed by hostiles.
There are likely janitors who make more than the average Marine too. The Marine probably has to do a better job cleaning the head too, but it is a pretty meaningless comparison beyond that.
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That is what I am saying. They are taught/trained to not even try to disarm a person directly. A lot of people don't seem to like it, but that seems to be the common tactic across the country. I would also add that in many places we don't pay cops enough to ask them to put themselves at further risk just because people don't like tasers (in general that is).
A lot of that stems from legal battles. Back in the days before tasers or reliable sprays, just piling officers on a subject was pretty much an accepted police tactic. Hell, one of my academy instructors showed us the old lead filled Sap Gloves and Blackjack that was actually issued by his first department in the 60's. Departments found out that going hands-on led to A LOT of injuries on both sides. Which in turn led to A LOT of lawsuits from both sides as well. Workers comps suits when the cops get injured, and wrongful injury suits when it was the subject.
Then along comes TASER with their revolutionary product that allowed officers to incapacitate a subject without cracking skulls or with fists or lead filled gloves or choking people out. Injuries on both sides plummet. To the point where even one Taser injury is national news. Consider how often a Taser is used every night somewhere in the US. Thousands of times a day. Then look at the handful of stories, one every few weeks or so about alleged improper use of the Taser. And not even all of them actually result in injury.
And anecdotally, I've been Tased a total of three times in my life. Once where they just connected the leads to me, and twice where they actually shot me with the barbs. And I'll take that over getting smacked with an ASP baton or blackjack any day.
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I doubt the bedridden granny will set a new Tueller Drill. Use your brain, its what god gave you. The cops here did not use their collective brains. Now, cop apologists, take it from there and tell us stories of woe about crazed, knife wielding grannies, bedridden, and how you have had to train to put them down before they do you in. :facepalm:
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I doubt the bedridden granny will set a new Tueller Drill. Use your brain, its what god gave you. The cops here did not use their collective brains. Now, cop apologists, take it from there and tell us stories of woe about crazed, knife wielding grannies, bedridden, and how you have had to train to put them down before they do you in. :facepalm:
do share with us your own theory and particularly experience(s) with disarming and tasers [popcorn] meatworld experiences preferably
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Meatworld? Why should I? You seem to deal with hype and deflection,'when you are not race baiting.
It seems a bedridden person, hint: that means they can't get out of the bed, could be, oh, talked to, instead of going ninja on. Use of force starts with verbal persuasion. You advocate that people get what they deserve when they are acting dumb, you fail to mention the asterisk saying LE not included b
I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone, so on meatworld, go pound sand.
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if they used the techniques co use on inmates granny would be deceased
Unlikely....but, it would be a lot less likely to start a fire in an oxygen-rich environment, too....
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Use of force starts with verbal persuasion.
deed it did grandson struck out at that so did the cop of course its always disenheartening when you try to talk to someone with a knife talking about killing you.
so i take it either your experience is very limited or so extensive that you don't want to overwhelm us with it. or was it that meatworld qualifier that was bad? real life can be such a drag filled with ugly lose lose situations that the peons have to slog through. i guess its all in perspective. i thought it ending with her still breathing was good. i never factored for anything more than that when you have a person with a knife and several with guns
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Unlikely....but, it would be a lot less likely to start a fire in an oxygen-rich environment, too....
You forgot the part where they thoughtfully stepped on the oxygen hose. [popcorn]
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Please. Are you just the APS bum who
Has nothing to do all day but troll?
Go over to coptalk on the plastic forum. It's full of screwtards who think LE does no wrong. Race baiters too. You'll be right at home
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Okie doke, I think we're done here.