Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on August 01, 2012, 10:27:42 AM
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This is interesting. It's MA, so my first thought was, "commie pinko govt telling people what to do". As I read the story though, it actually sounds fair. Maybe those of you with more experience working on modern cars can weigh in.
I haven't done major work on an engine since car computers have become the norm. Back then I suppose any mechanic who could order a part could fix the vehicle with nothing more than a Chilton manual. If I understand the story correctly, I can completely see where manufacturers holding back diagnosis software would be unfair to both independent mechanics and the vehicle owners themselves. Certainly auto manufacturers (excepting GM I suppose) are private entities and can market things as they please, but once I pay $30K for one of their vehicles, it becomes mine and I should be able to do whatever I want with it, including fixing stuff myself.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/08/01/mass-lawmakers-approve-right-to-repair-bill/?intcmp=features
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The fight over the repair legislation has been one of the most heavily-lobbied issues on Beacon Hill over the past several years. It was expected that millions would be spent by groups campaigning for and against the measure.
i guess we can thank the auto industry for helping the economy on more than one front.
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Tis issue was touched briefly whan Toyota was having their acceleration issues.
In order to investigate the issue, the NHTSA requested the proprietary software information from TMC.
TMC (Toyota Motor Corp) initially hedged, but complied with the request.
There is also similar issues affecting guys who 'super tune' their vehicles with an aftermarket re-programmer, or add a supercharger and reprogram the ECU.
Seems that some of these guys were over boosting their engines, breaking them, then removing the speed parts and erasing the history from their controllers.
They then made warranty claims from the local dealer!
The OEMs started locking down the computer controllers in order to stop what they called 'false' warranty claims.
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at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?
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There is some similar rule in the EU requiring repair manuals & such be made available.
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at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?
They already do, Megasquirt uses the MC9S12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_68HC12) to control fuel and spark.
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at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?
A long time ago.
Software that comes with a car is closed source. Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.
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If the NHTSA and DOT wanted to be actually useful and effective, they would require all software, schematics, and microcode on any vehicle to be publicly audit-able and enforce standards or mandate formats that can be verified by cryptographic hash, so there's no shenanigans. But politicians do not understand computers and they think they work by magic, so the area of software is pretty much anarchy.
It's a similar situation with medical devices which are supposedly regulated by the FDA. The FDA mandates all these extreme tests for safety on medical devices, but as far as I can tell, they don't care if the software development is farmed out on rent-a-coder.com, so we end up with pacemakers and insulin pumps that can be hacked by any kid with an Android phone and bluetooth.
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A long time ago.
Software that comes with a car is closed source. Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.
I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it. =|
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I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it. =|
Also doesn't Windows actually state in the license agreement that you don't "own" it and are actually just paying to use it? I own my car.
Again, I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of melding motors and computers, and exactly what these current software access restrictions mean or don't mean. Jamie does bring up a good point about people ripping off the manufacturer and dealers, and that's not right. But if the current way things work is that they limit your, or your independent mechanic's ability to repair the vehicle you own, that's not right either. I can understand limiting access to source code, but not to the diagnostic software itself.
As a for instance, places I've been looking at in Idaho are at least 100 miles from the nearest Ford dealer. Would I be forced to drive that long distance for certain repairs versus taking my truck in to the local mechanic? Similarly, Isuzu stopped making my Trooper in the US around 2002. If certain diagnostic software is proprietary AND required to make a particular repair, and Isuzu doesn't have any dealerships in my state let alone my city, how am I supposed to get my vehicle repaired?
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If certain diagnostic software is proprietary AND required to make a particular repair, and Isuzu doesn't have any dealerships in my state let alone my city, how am I supposed to get my vehicle repaired?
Now you are beginning to understand.
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It's a similar situation with medical devices which are supposedly regulated by the FDA. The FDA mandates all these extreme tests for safety on medical devices, but as far as I can tell, they don't care if the software development is farmed out on rent-a-coder.com, so we end up with pacemakers and insulin pumps that can be hacked by any kid with an Android phone and bluetooth.
Yes, but I don't hook up my Dialysis machine to the internet....
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Meh.
I'm against forcing the auto makers to do much of anything. If this becomes a serious problem, the market will fix it - proprietary software makes the cost of ownership go up, fewer people buy that brand, brand goes under. Isn't that how the free market is suppose to work?
Further, I don't understand how proprietary software could be required to make a diagnostic/repair. Every interface between mechanical car and computer is either a sensor or an actuator. And the test procedures for these sensors and actuator are already listed in the repair manuals, which I'll note are generally aftermarket products as well. [Should manufactures be required to publish their factory manuals? Why? And why not before now?]
To me, this looks like an attitude I generally see in older people. "Wait, I need an o-sill-er-scope to test this part? I don't know how to do that!" Yea, the tech is changing. And that means the technicians will need to get new training so they can understand electronic systems. It's the future! Deal with it. No, you can't fix a car with a socket set and a timing light anymore - you *need* electronic test equipment; but it's already commercially available – oscilloscopes, multimeters, probably eventually logic analysers. Hell, we already have a standarized diagnostic interface that is mandated by law - OBDII; that dumps out of what the engine computer thinks is wrong.
In my mind, this is about technicians being butt-hurt that they have to learn new skill sets and acquire new tooling, and would much prefer if the government forced manufactures to provide a no-sharp-corners way in. I mean really – do you expect to find a schematic when you take the cover off your LCD TV? Should Apple have to provide a way for non-factory techs to get to the diagnostics console of an iPhone?
Sorry, forcing companies to do things at gunpoint doesn't make the world a freer place. I don't support it.
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http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-iii-c-76.html?osCsid=6f8e2f7296bd7a58e1722cbc0975661d
Cool!
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There are repairs that only dealers can do
Further, I don't understand how proprietary software could be required to make a diagnostic/repair.
My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.
Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.
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There are repairs that only dealers can do
My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.
Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.
And yet, even something this specific has been reverse engineered and mass manufactured aftermarket.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Consult-ECU-Diagnostic-Interface-RT-Fault-Code-/190585306316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5fc4fccc
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connecter is easy you need the software
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There are repairs that only dealers can do
My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.
Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.
That sucks, and would make me not buy that car, but doesn't rise to the "needs legislation" level.
ETA: Not for nothing, but 10 min on the net has taught me that the early 2000 maxima's had maf issues, and Nissan's fix was to swap out for a compleatly different unit with different voltage paramaters. Hence the ecu reflash. So just switching the sensor doesn't require a reflash. There's a tsb on it.
And that conforms with my experiance working on (new) cars. Repairs rarely require more then an obd ii scanner and a dmm. Every once in a long while an o-scope. MODIFICATIONS often need more involved software. Although the aftermarket is pretty solid there too.
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connecter is easy you need the software
http://conzult.com/conzult/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/scantech/
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i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.
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i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.
*raises one eyebrow*
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i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.
Again, Marnoot had a TSB applied. That means NISSAN decided the cars needed to be changed, and wrote new software for them. Of course you have to go to Nissan to get Nissan's new software.
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I believe Consult is the proprietary system I was talking about. So if Conzult, etc. can do all the things that Consult can, then it would fill the need. I'm also not necessarily saying that "there oughta be a law!". More just general grumbling about how the manufacturers are running things.
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What is NISSAN's consult and how does it work ?
The NISSAN Consult is a hand held computerised diagnostic tool designed to communicate
directly with the electronic control units (ECU's) in the vehicle.
Connection to ANY control unit is through a 'Diagnostic Data Link' (DDL) provided in the vehicle.
NISSAN Consult is designed to perform 3 basic functions (as follows);
▫ display the status of the input and output signals read at the control unit (ECU)
▫ read the conclusions of the electronic systems Self Diagnostics (error log) and display the name of the failed circuit.
▫ instructs the control unit to modify signals of certain sensors and actuators, thereby changing operating conditions
to confirm diagnosis. (not available for all systems)
What is a Conzult and how does it work ?
the ConZult is an application that was originally developed for the late model 300ZX (Z32).
It is basically a PC-version of the Nissan Consult I and offers the same
functionality plus extra features that are not possible with the Nissan consult.
Some of these functions are:
▫ realtime monitoring of every sensor in the car.
▫ (temporarily) adjustment of fuel and timing maps, for tuning purposes.
▫ manual operation of solenoids and relays
▫ checking and erasing DTC error-codes
▫ recording, analyzing and replaying sensor and solenoid data
Most of all the ConZult is an indispensable diagnostic tool, which can help you in problem determination.
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I do admit, I would be okay with some sort of compromise where vehicle source code and diagnostics are proprietary during the time a vehicle is under warranty. The cases where guys who "chip" their cars and then blow the engine and then restore factory firmware and wipe the codes, I can respect. Engine and transmission replacements cost thousands of dollars. I also feel for Ben's example where there's no dealer for over 100 miles... but I bet there's already case-law about other patented information or I.P. that shoots the "distance" argument down.
The issue of the same code being used in multiple vehicle model years could be addressed semi-easily with software keys etc. and the company web page/portal IMO.
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I recall Volvo a few years back issuing proprietary software for their cars. The diagnostic software was $10,000, and was applicable only to one year and one model. If you wanted to be able to repair all models of Volvo's, you had to fork over serious cash. That effectively shut out non-dealer shops, not to mention home mechanics.
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lots of compamies will freeze you out like that dewalt does it to repair shops that sell tools too never will buy dewalt again
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lots of compamies will freeze you out like that dewalt does it to repair shops that sell tools too never will buy dewalt again
Don;t you mean "Black & Decker?"
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yea local repair shop bought pallets of tools at discount offered em at great prices lows and home depot complained and dewalt said they were gonna jerk his authorized service center status put a good guy outa business and hes was a heck of a repair guy
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When my 1976 GMC starts running rough, I put in a new set of spark plugs, plug wires, and/or cap and rotor :lol:
It needs a new cap and rotor right now I think, but only when it rains a lot. Once you get it warmed up and dried out, it runs fine.
I don't even need a timing light for it. I set it by ear and it runs better than setting it to "spec" with the timing light ;/
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I don't even need a timing light for it. I set it by ear and it runs better than setting it to "spec" with the timing light ;/
Worn timing chain.
No offense to anyone in this thread, but i love it when folks start waxing nostalgic over how awesome and uncomplcated to work on older cars are. The level of self delusion needed to maintain that belief is amazing.
I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.
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...I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.
What the hell is that in - a Rolls-Canardly ? :P
(yeah, it's so much easier to drain and drop a 40 gallon fuel tank than it is to take two bolts out of the side of the engine ;/ )
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I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it. =|
I get this mental picture: 20 LY and 2 centuries of cold sleep time away from home, your life support blue screens with a cryptic "IRQL-LESS-THAN-OR-EQUAL blah blah blah" error....
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A long time ago.
Software that comes with a car is closed source. Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.
Perhaps not the source code for how the diagnostics are generated, but the whole point of mandating a universal data port for OBD-II in 1996 was to make access to on-board diagnostic codes available to anyone who wanted or needed to work on the vehicle. How the manufacturers generate their codes is up to them, but they should not be allowed to have two levels of codes -- a low level for the end users (car owners) and independent shops, and a much higher level for dealership shops. Allowing dual level diagnostics takes us right back to Microsoft coding special functions into Windows that their own programmers were able to take advantage of but that competing software companies (such as WordPerfect) couldn't use because they didn't know they existed.
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Worn timing chain.
No offense to anyone in this thread, but i love it when folks start waxing nostalgic over how awesome and uncomplcated to work on older cars are. The level of self delusion needed to maintain that belief is amazing.
I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.
Self delusion my posterior.
I just went through "the routine" with my wife's 2000 Jeep Cherokee. One day it just started running rough ... VERY rough, as in feeling like it was running on four or five out the six cylinders. So I plugged in the OBD-II scanner and, lo and behold, it confirmed: Code P0306 ... which, when looked up, is "Misfire cylinder #6."
So WHY is it misfiring on cylinder #6? Well, of course, the scanner either doesn't know or isn't telling, so we resort to basics: An infernal combustion engine requires three things -- fuel, air, and a source of ignition. First guess -- getting to the spark plugs on this thing is a bear because of the coil-on-rail ignition system, so the original spark plugs had over 90,000 miles on them. So I changed the spark plugs. No joy.
A fellow member of an on-line Jeep club is a Jeep dealership tech. He produced a TSB that said the symptoms I had result when an exhaust valve gets carboned up and won't close completely. Solution: Top engine cleaner, followed by running it at high RPMs. Okay, three cans of top engine cleaner later, it won't run at high RPM because it's still misfiring and goes into "limp home mode" when it hits 2800 RPM.
That leaves injectors, and coil (of which there are three, but solidly mounted on a single -- and expensive -- rail assembly. A friend had a complete injector rail from the same year Jeep engine, so we swapped out the #6 injector. Nope -- no joy.
So the only thing left was the coil rail. $125 later, all was well. Electronic, computerized diagnostics didn't help a bit. And if there had been a conventional coil with spark plug wires, the new coil would have cost a lot less and it would tave take about one -quarter of the time to replace it.
Which helps explain why I still have and drive my 1988 Cherokee ...
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What the hell is that in - a Rolls-Canardly ? :P
240Z, But in that car's defense they weren't stock Carbs. The stock.......Hitachi's I think, were a little easiert to keep running, but still a pain to sync.
Self delusion my posterior.
I just went through "the routine" with my wife's 2000 Jeep Cherokee. One day it just started running rough ... VERY rough, as in feeling like it was running on four or five out the six cylinders. So I plugged in the OBD-II scanner and, lo and behold, it confirmed: Code P0306 ... which, when looked up, is "Misfire cylinder #6."
....
So the only thing left was the coil rail. $125 later, all was well. Electronic, computerized diagnostics didn't help a bit. And if there had been a conventional coil with spark plug wires, the new coil would have cost a lot less and it would tave take about one -quarter of the time to replace it.
Not for nothing, but "Ur doin it rong". Misfire code? Ignition problem, spark plug first, then coil output (see aforementioned DMM). problem solved. The diagnostics would have been fine had you used them properly.
Look, I've spent my entire professional life, and most of my teen years wrenching on a variety of different cars and boats. Both gas and diesel. Classic 50's and 60's to brand spanking new. I will agree that modern diagnostics takes a different skillset as well as toolkit, but the cars are vastly superior in every measurable metric. It is frustrating when the skills you used 20-30 years ago don't work anymore but the issue is your skillset not the tech. Which is not to say don't work on old cars. If you like that have at it, I still do. The delusion that I mentioned, and was so quickly shown, is that computers are useless, or make things worse, because you don't use them correctly.
Back to the OP.
I STRONGLY suspect the propratary code being talked about here isn't diagnostic software, but rather the actual engine managment code. Certainly it is in Marnoot's example. And I can understand why manufacturers, in a competitive buisness don't want to hand out the software the details how their engine runs. And 99.9% of the time you don't need that software to fix it.
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I don't know the legal details. Does the OBDII standard apply to things other than engine? My friend could not get any independent mechanic to work on his Kia when the airbag light went on. He also couldn't get anyone besides the Kia dealer to check out his transmission.
There is a ridiculous number of computer controlled things in cars today. My parents' mid-90s Caravan has a separate computer module just to control lights and door locks, and that's pretty common.
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240Z
One of them furrin cars :P
I don't think that there's anything much simpler to keep running than an old Chevy straight six pickup. Too bad mine is a 350 v8, but it's still pretty simple.
I'm not in the business of fixing vehicles for a living.
I do know that when our daughter had her Subaru, nobody except a dealer seemed to be able to read the fault codes. Then she got a Toyota van that was nothing but problems. :(
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dogmush, the tradeoff is reliability versus simplicity and cost. If your points-and-condenser car didn't start, there weren't too many things to look at. The downside is that the cars had problems far more often than do the black box models of today.
The downside to today's cars is that the black boxes can be expensive, and that more parts have black boxes than they did even 15-20 years ago. For example, alternators used to be $50 for rebuilt units. Now they're $200 or more.
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The downside to today's cars is that the black boxes can be expensive, and that more parts have black boxes than they did even 15-20 years ago. For example, alternators used to be $50 for rebuilt units. Now they're $200 or more.
What's an "alternator"?
My '46 Hudson pickup had a generator. It had replaceable bushings, and replaceable brushes. In fact, I think I still have a box of bronze generator bushings in the basement. IIRC the entire vehicle had three fuses. The old, cloth-insulated wiring was shot when I bought the truck, so I rewired it. I think it took me three nights to completely replace the entire wiring harness. With today's vehicles, it'll take three days to find the starter relay. And what's up with using a relay to control a solenoid? ???
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what's up with using a relay to control a solenoid?
Whoa! Need to route that circuit through some computer logic first :O
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I STRONGLY suspect the propratary code being talked about here isn't diagnostic software, but rather the actual engine managment code. Certainly it is in Marnoot's example. And I can understand why manufacturers, in a competitive buisness don't want to hand out the software the details how their engine runs. And 99.9% of the time you don't need that software to fix it.
I strongly suspect its the interface and diagnostic controls.
OBD just requires passing a code that something is wrong. The OEM can add all sorts of additional diagnostic tools to the vehicle software.
For diagnostic example, OBD can say there is a misfire on #6 cylinder. Regulation met.
OEM diagnostics might be able to do special ring back delay tests on the 'plug and injector, combined with fuel rail pressure behavior during injection to help pinpoint the issue. Dealer advantage.
For interface example, there might be a glitch in the shift control software. The fix might be a transmission reflash for the shift tune. Doesn't matter if you have the flash file if you can't interface with the PCM in a way it accepts.