Body armor fight; anyone have info?

[Balog]

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,145380,00.html?ESRC=marine-a.nl

Justice Department Drops Dragon Skin

Stars and Stripes | Leo Shane III | August 09, 2007

WASHINGTON  Department of Justice researchers have dropped Dragon Skin body armor from their list of acceptable protective equipment for law enforcement, the latest setback for the controversial bulletproof vests.

But officials from Pinnacle Armor Inc., which makes the vests, say the move is a hasty reaction to paperwork confusion about the warranty length of the vests and believe it may have ties to the ongoing fight between the company and Army researchers over Dragon Skin's effectiveness.

"This armor doesn't fail any (Justice Department) ballistics tests, but they took it off the list anyway," Pinnacle CEO Murray Neal said. "It's something that never should have happened. We just need to get through this issue and get this armor back on these cops."

Pinnacle officials in June squared off with military researchers in a series of congressional hearings over Dragon Skin's effectiveness. An NBC report in May that the commercially available armor, made of layered plates similar to scales, performed better in independent ballistic tests than the Army's Interceptor Body Armor.

Army officials testified that Dragon Skin has failed numerous tests over the years, saying the ceramic plates fall apart after exposure to extreme heat and cold. All four services have banned use of the armor for general combat use.

According to the Justice Department, Pinnacle has not supplied enough evidence to support "that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period," prompting its exclusion from the approved vests list.

Neal said the warranty period is longer than that of most commercial vests, and the problems arise from a dispute between company and government analysts over requirements to prove that shelf life.

He believes the company is being hampered by more red tape than other protective armor firms, in part because of the ongoing fights with military officials.

"It's a misrepresentation of who we are, and a disservice to the men and women who need this armor," he said.

Department of Justice officials did not provide comment on those allegations by press time.

Neal said several police forces have contacted the company to stop or delay orders of the body armor as a result of the move. Justice Department officials advised law enforcement officers to continue wearing the Dragon Skin body armor until replacements can be purchased, rather than go without armor.

Under service regulations released in June, sailors and Marines can receive permission from commanders to use commercial body armor such as Dragon Skin under special circumstances, as dictated by mission needs.

Army and Air Force officials have followed a similar policy in the past, but officials at U.S. Special Operations Command could not be reached for comment.

[Thor]

There's a pretty in depth discussion on this forum: http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/index.php

It's not been brought up for a while, so the thread might be buried. One of the ex-members there is a salesman for Dragon Skin Body Armor. His screen name is........

Pinnacle.


He can be found on this forum: http://www.mnguntalk.com/index.php?sid=2ec57e555f3a45ce08d50382bdfe6193

Feel free to join and PM him, if you wish. He's pretty up front about the injustices Dragon Skin armor has received. I've spoken with him on the phone on this subject.

[Manedwolf]

Look at what VIPs wear when they go to a war zone. Think that says it all.

[Leatherneck]

My office was directed by Congress to look into the testing done. Dragonskin was found to be acceptable under some circumstances, but not under others. The heat and age thing was the major flaw. Then, to make matters worse, Pinnacle certified that they had performed and passed all the DOJ standard tests when they had not. That's grounds for decertification.

He believes the company is being hampered by more red tape than other protective armor firms, in part because of the ongoing fights with military officials.

Yeah, that whole oversight thing is pesky when you get caught lying, isn't it.

TC

[Thor]

Leatherneck, you apparently know more than I do of this story. The only information I've gleaned was from the sales rep (definitely biased) and the media (probably biased). The sales rep has asserted that units of Dragon Skin has been sold to the Government for certain officials, (think Rumsfeld and certain Generals, etc). While I don't know the physics behind the material, I fail to see how ceramic plates can just arbitrarily break down due to heat or cold, at least the amounts a person may be exposed to. What I have seen on a couple of TV shows was impressive, to say the least.

[RevDisk]

While I don't know the physics behind the material, I fail to see how ceramic plates can just arbitrarily break down due to heat or cold, at least the amounts a person may be exposed to. What I have seen on a couple of TV shows was impressive, to say the least.

Basically, military equipment has to meet certain requirements that seem odd, but aren't.   We have troops in Alaska (and exercises in Norway, etc) that need to be able to use it in extreme cold.  We have troops in deserts that need to be able to use it in extreme hot.  Plus, we have these wonderful (evil) thingies called CONEX's.  Big metal box with wood floors that turn into a #%#( oven if you shine a flashlight on them, let alone the NTC or Saudi sun.  If someone is dumb or unlucky enough to toss anything wet into these metal boxes and then close the door, humidity will go through the roof and stay there.  Each disc is made of silicon-carbide ceramic matrix and laminates.  Said laminates don't react well to extreme temperates and definitely not drastic temporate changes.  Delamination in your body armor is definitely what we consider A Bad Thing.

From what I understand about Dragon Skin, it works very well.  It does stop bullets better than IBA under 'normal circumstances'.  But it's more sensitive to heat extremes.   Plus, they shot themselves in the foot repeatedly in their dealings with procurement procedures.  They definitely screwed themselves with the NIJ certification fiasco. Personally, I'd prefer a Dragon Skin over IBA if I knew I wasn't going to use it in extreme temperatures or longer than 2-3 years.  Definitely not the six years as advertised by Pinnacle.

I recommend checking out http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm

[roo_ster]

RevDisk nailed it.

There are whole departments in the DOD dedicated to determining how equipment will react under various conditions of storage.

You know that ammo sealed up in cool battlepacks or ammo cans?  There are some conditions where such will last mere months in storage and be worthless afterwards.

Given such conditions, the best-performing product at the square range may not be what we really want to issue to our hooahs.

[Perd Hapley]

We're calling them hooahs, now?     I think I'll go swallow my shottie. 

[MechAg94]

Thanks RevDisk.  I had heard bits and pieces only.  It does make some sense.