Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on February 03, 2013, 01:23:34 AM
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Navy Seal, author and well known sniper.
RIP sir. =(
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/02/02/American-Sniper-Chris-Kyle-Killed-at-Texas-Gun-Range?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BreitbartFeed+(Breitbart+Feed)
snipped from article
SEAL Team 3 Chief Chris Kyle served four combat tours in Operation Iraqi Freedom and elsewhere. For his bravery in battle, he was awarded two Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars with Valor, two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, and one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation. Additionally, he received the Grateful Nation Award, given by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. Following his combat deployments, he became chief instructor for training Naval Special Warfare Sniper and Counter-Sniper teams, and he authored the Naval Special Warfare Sniper Doctrine, the first Navy SEAL sniper manual.
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Murdered at a gun range by a former Marine. The suspect has been caught.
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Further proof that "No good deed shall go unpunished."
May his killer roast in the fires of Hades forever.
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unreal, rip.
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No one has yet, but I respectfully ask that we keep gun politics out of this thread. Reserve it for condolences and general discussion on the deceased. Feel free to discuss this as related to gun control by starting a separate thread in politics. Thanks.
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Ten quotes. Seemed like he was a stand-up guy.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/02/10-of-the-best-quotes-from-slain-seal-chris-kyles-book-american-sniper/
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I wonder if this will turn out to be a random crime or if Mr. Kyle and his buddy were specifically targeted.
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I wonder if this will turn out to be a random crime or if Mr. Kyle and his buddy were specifically targeted.
According to some reports they both knew the shooter and were all at the range in order to "help" with some issue related to the shooter's PTSD. Other reports say Kyle and his friend were representing his (Kyle's) security companmy at a charity fundraising event and did not know the shooter. In either case, Hawkmoon's "no good deed" comment is apt.
Unlike the public image of a SEAL and sniper, Mr. Kyle was soft-spoken and unassuming. Possibly the most ooutstanding thing he ever did was to claim to have punched Jesse Ventura in the face in a bar. Ventura has consistently denied the event and had an active lawsuit against Kyle for defamation. Kyle is said to have never identified the SEAL Team that was supposed to be holding a wake when Ventura supposedly said that which Kyle claims so enraged him, and s far no witnesses were named by either side.
Fair winds and following seas.
stay safe.
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Unlike the public image of a SEAL and sniper, Mr. Kyle was soft-spoken and unassuming. Possibly the most ooutstanding thing he ever did was to claim to have punched Jesse Ventura in the face in a bar. Ventura has consistently denied the event and had an active lawsuit against Kyle for defamation. Kyle is said to have never identified the SEAL Team that was supposed to be holding a wake when Ventura supposedly said that which Kyle claims so enraged him, and s far no witnesses were named by either side.
Jesse Ventura, Jackass (Esq) said to Kyle that the SEALS "deserved to lose a few guys".
Ventura is an asshat and has proven it repeatedly, so I'm going to go with Kyle on this one...and wish Kyle had challenged Jesse to a duel instead and saved us from his overbearing assholiness.
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Jesse Ventura, Jackass (Esq) said to Kyle that the SEALS "deserved to lose a few guys".
Ventura is an asshat and has proven it repeatedly, so I'm going to go with Kyle on this one...and wish Kyle had challenged Jesse to a duel instead and saved us from his overbearing assholiness.
I saw a segment on O'Reily about that, when asked about what happened after he punched Ventura Chris said with a laugh "I ran"
:cool:.
I remember planning on getting his book, but never got to it. Mr Kyle seemed like someone I would want to know.
I real stand-up guy.
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Fair Winds and Following Seas ,brother !
=(
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That's a shame. RIP.
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I wonder if this will turn out to be a random crime or if Mr. Kyle and his buddy were specifically targeted.
I heard a radio report this evening that Al Qaeda had a bounty on the Kyle.
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RIP. Thank you for your service. My condolences to his family.
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Ventura is an asshat and has proven it repeatedly, so I'm going to go with Kyle on this one...and wish Kyle had challenged Jesse to a duel instead and saved us from his overbearing assholiness.
choose your weapon at 1200yds?
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I remember planning on getting his book, but never got to it. Mr Kyle seemed like someone I would want to know.
I real stand-up guy.
Never heard of his book before now. It's been my experience that regardless what field of activity you want to talk about the best of the best are most often the humble and soft spoken ones. The egos start to kick in a couple levels down. ;)
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What a terrible shame. And it goes to show that even the most dangerous and highly skilled men are still just men, and can be killed even by those of considerably less talent. =(
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Further proof that "No good deed shall go unpunished."
May his killer roast in the fires of Hades forever.
If it was anyone but a former Marine that they were trying to help I would agree with this, but not this time. They went out doing what they do best, trying to help those that needed it. No one knows the torment the young man they were trying to help is going through. I ask that you please keep him in your thoughts and/or prayers also because he also a casualty of the horrors of war.
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And Ron Paul has yet again substantiated all of my criticisms of his sanity.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/04/ron-paul-tweets-controversial-message-about-murdered-navy-seal-veteran/%20?test=latestnews
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In response to the news, Paul tweeted: “Chris Kyle’s death seems to confirm that ‘he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.’ Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn’t make sense.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/04/ron-paul-tweets-controversial-message-about-murdered-navy-seal-veteran/%20?test=latestnews#ixzz2JzMtvDAd
If Paul said that, he is officially an Asshat.
Rest peacefully Kyle. :'(
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And Ron Paul has yet again substantiated all of my criticisms of his sanity.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/04/ron-paul-tweets-controversial-message-about-murdered-navy-seal-veteran/%20?test=latestnews
I expect that tweet will cost him a fair amount of respect from those who have otherwise supported him.
It certainly has me thinking that perhaps it's a good thing he didn't win the Republican nomination after all. And wondering what the hell the man was thinking.
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I expect that tweet will cost him a fair amount of respect from those who have otherwise supported him.
Rightfully so, if indeed he really did say that.
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As someone who works with persons with mental illnesses, I know first-hand how easy it is for the person you're helping to turn on you. Yet Kyle kept helping until the end.....
Vaya con Dios, Amigo.....
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he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
I guess it's better than wasting away crapping yourself in a bed somewhere.
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I'm probably gonna catch some hell for this.
Ron Paul's comment was awful, but not entirely false.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/former-sniper-chris-kyle-tried-to-help-troubled-marine-accused-in-his-death.html?_r=0
The shootings unfolded five months after the Lancaster police responded to the Routh residence in September. At that time, Mr. Routh threatened to kill himself and his family, according to a police report of the episode. Officers found him near his home, shirtless and shoeless, and he told them he was a Marine veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder, the report said.
Taking this dude to a range to unwind was probably an awful decision.
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Ron Paul's comments merely confirmed my belief that libertarians and radical leftists are uncomfortably close. The inability to separate the warrior from the policy betrays a mindset that I find dangerous. Paul has changed the national debate for the positive. His comments here are uncalled for and unacceptable.
The man screwed the pooch in my view. He would have been better of keeping his tweet shut.
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Ron Paul's comments merely confirmed my belief that libertarians and radical leftists are uncomfortably close. The inability to separate the warrior from the policy betrays a mindset that I find dangerous. Paul has changed the national debate for the positive. His comments here are uncalled for and unacceptable.
The man screwed the pooch in my view. He would have been better of keeping his tweet shut.
:facepalm:
The latter truth does not justify the statement at the beginning of your comment. Not seeing a whole lot of commonality between "radical leftists", who want to control your life from cradle to grave for the good and enrichment of the State (and themselves, of course), and libertarians, who want to... leave you the hell alone to live your own life and have the same courtesy extended to themselves.
Paul decided to nosh on both his shoes at the same time with that tweet. I *SUSPECT* it had some basis in his objection to US involvement in the War On Terra, but do not know this for a fact.
Fitz raises a really good point. The shooter apparently had a history of SERIOUS mental issues. Why on Earth would an experienced veteran think it was a good idea to take such an individual to a range?
And, it looks as though someone pointed out to RP that he REALLY ought to clarify what he said - so he did: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/02/ron-paul-clarifies-by-the-sword-tweet-on-snipers-death/ Doesn't make up for his attack of foot-in-mouth disease, but explains it a little better, IMO.
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Honestly just seems like he jammed the foot farther in.
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I'm probably gonna catch some hell for this.
Ron Paul's comment was awful, but not entirely false.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/former-sniper-chris-kyle-tried-to-help-troubled-marine-accused-in-his-death.html?_r=0
Taking this dude to a range to unwind was probably an awful decision.
Truth is truth. I, for one, am tired of Teleprompted platitudes.
Lengthy unjust wars have broken some of the finest young men and women our country has to offer.
Taking one of them to the gun range for therapy?
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It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.
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It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.
This.....sometimes, you just don't know....
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/ron-paul-on-sniper-chris-kyle-live-by-the-sword-die-by-the-sword/2013/02/05/e7c06c1e-6fdd-11e2-ac36-3d8d9dcaa2e2_blog.html (http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/ron-paul-on-sniper-chris-kyle-live-by-the-sword-die-by-the-sword/2013/02/05/e7c06c1e-6fdd-11e2-ac36-3d8d9dcaa2e2_blog.html)
Ron Paul spoke again - a lot more conciliatory the second time
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It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.
Are we reading the same articles?
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Are we reading the same articles?
Mr. Kyle’s friends said he did not know Mr. Routh well — Mr. Kyle became lost trying to find the house, and had to ask a neighbor for directions — but he knew Mr. Routh’s mother, Jodi Routh, who had recently asked for help for her son, a former Marine who spent 15 days in a nearby jail last year after a drunken-driving arrest, and who the authorities said had a history of mental illness.
Family friend calls and says "My son is having trouble post war, just got a DUI, and needs help" without mentioning any mental health issues. Seems a perfectly plausible explanation for Kyle's conduct.
Also appears the guy may have killed them in order to steal the truck. So not "deranged vet flips out" but "thief murders people trying to help him."
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Shortly before his arrest, Mr. Routh told his sister and brother-in-law that he had killed the two men and “traded his soul for a new truck,” according to an arrest affidavit.
The shootings unfolded five months after the Lancaster police responded to the Routh residence in September. At that time, Mr. Routh threatened to kill himself and his family, according to a police report of the episode.
Talk of trading one's soul for a truck, as well as the previous encounter, suggest this was more than just a thief.
Kyle made a point to go around helping veterans with mental health issues. I find it difficult to believe he was not aware of this vet's health issues. And, if so, before taking a troubled vet to the range, it's probably a good idea to find out about things such as, I dunno, an encounter with the police stemming from a threat to kill your whole family.
A normal person, vet, whatever, doesn't go to a shooting range then just blast someone in the head and steal their truck.
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Yeah I still don't see it. While insensitive, I don't think RP's remarks were that far off base.
It was not unusual for Mr. Kyle, 38, to spend time counseling troubled veterans
Kyle was engaging in a noble cause. But you can't tell me that some of these kids had seriously bad demons and he didn't recognize that fact.
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Why are they calling him a "Former SEAL" on the news?
Didn't he retire from the Navy? I always thought "former" meant separated prior to the minimum 20 years.
Odd. =|
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Why are they calling him a "Former SEAL" on the news?
Didn't he retire from the Navy? I always thought "former" meant separated prior to the minimum 20 years.
Odd. =|
I've always used former meaning "not anymore, regardless of how he left"
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Are we reading the same articles?
I think so... ???
I've read many articles detailing Routh's police and psychiatric contacts, and his family's worries about him. However, I don't think I've read anywhere Kyle had been made directly aware of everything.
Balog's quote is an example. Listing Kyle and Routh's record in the same sentence doesn't mean Kyle was aware etc. Or it was non violent offences like the DUI and got a glossed-over version of Routh's records or "problems".
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I think so... ???
I've read many articles detailing Routh's police and psychiatric contacts, and his family's worries about him. However, I don't think I've read anywhere Kyle had been made directly aware of everything.
Balog's quote is an example. Listing Kyle and Routh's record in the same sentence doesn't mean Kyle was aware etc. Or it was non violent offences like the DUI and got a glossed-over version of Routh's records or "problems".
That, to me, is even worse. He took a stranger who had just spent some time in jail for a DUI to a range without learning anything about him.
Either way, it's not a smart decision. It's irresponsible. It's unfortunate that he paid for it with his life.
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How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not goto the range with me?
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How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not goto the range with me?
Not without at least finding out a bit about you. Had I not known you through this forum, absolutely not. Seems like if you recently had incidents like this kid did, it wouldn't take long to find out about...
When I meet vets, I don't hand em my handgun, do I?
Being a vet doesn't automatically make me trust you. And again, this dude spent time in jail on a DUI, had the aforementioned "kill my family" incident... even the most cursory of inquiries about who this guy was would have revealed that.
And again, given Kyle's mission, I maintain that he probably knew. And if he didn't, having knowledge of PTSD and what it can do/how it can manifest, if he didn't do any kind of cursory inquiry into the dude, then that was a big, big bad decision.
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What type of inquiry? Talking with the guy? He seems normal. Asking his family? They don't divulge. Google the name, you get the DUI record. Now what?
I don't think there was a reasonable expectation that he should have seen this coming. "OMG he's had a DUI and some anger issues? Obviously the logical assumption is that he'll murder me the first chance he gets." ;/
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what are the criteria for determining folks are safe? if you chose to help troubled folk you better know your butt will incur some risk. it is part of the problem. troubled folks become "untouchables" and that means they are screwed permanent.
thankfully there are folks who are willing to take a chance. i drew the line at i stopped bringing strays home to live when kid was 4. i only make rare exceptions
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What type of inquiry? Talking with the guy? He seems normal. Asking his family? They don't divulge. Google the name, you get the DUI record. Now what?
I don't think there was a reasonable expectation that he should have seen this coming. "OMG he's had a DUI and some anger issues? Obviously the logical assumption is that he'll murder me the first chance he gets." ;/
I didn't say that, did I? Roll your eyes all you want. It totally makes your viewpoint more valid.
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what are the criteria for determining folks are safe? if you chose to help troubled folk you better know your butt will incur some risk. it is part of the problem. troubled folks become "untouchables" and that means they are screwed permanent.
thankfully there are folks who are willing to take a chance. i drew the line at i stopped bringing strays home to live when kid was 4. i only make rare exceptions
One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.
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I didn't say that, did I? Roll your eyes all you want. It totally makes your viewpoint more valid.
You're blaming the victim of a murder for not being prescient. Eye rolling is a mild and polite response.
One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.
Which he should have divined via psychic powers.
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You're blaming the victim of a murder for not being prescient. Eye rolling is a mild and polite response.
Which he should have divined via psychic powers.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not wise to take a disturbed individual to a shooting range.
I'm also saying that it's highly unlikely he didn't know this, as this was the WHOLE POINT of what he had been up to.
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The vast majority of all combat vets (and rape survivors too for that matter) are "disturbed" so you'll probably need to narrow that down a bit.
In his shoes what would you specifically have done to reassure yourself that this individual was safe to take to a range? Do you think it would have prevented this? Do you think that everyone who commits a violent crime has shown adequite warnings signs of it beforehand?
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One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.
i'd have to see if it was a credible threat or drunk talking from butt.
helping some folks is darn inconvenient and its not for everybody. i actually relied on god for a great deal of my protection. i got all the crazy ones. if i didn't have kids i still would. i won't expose them . beyond a point anyway. dealing with crazy vets means pray harder. and oddly you pray for them . if they get what help they need it automatically protects you. it can be more exciting than vegas. and can be tragic as well. very very rarely it can be rewarding but those times are real special and make the other stuff worth it.
as far as i know this guy was all talk till this event
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The vast majority of all combat vets (and rape survivors too for that matter) are "disturbed" so you'll probably need to narrow that down a bit.
In his shoes what would you specifically have done to reassure yourself that this individual was safe to take to a range? Do you think it would have prevented this? Do you think that everyone who commits a violent crime has shown adequite warnings signs of it beforehand?
I dunno. If i can't even find his house and know nothing about him, maybe i'd want to, i dunno, spend some TIME with him first before just going to a range and handing him a weapon?
"Hey, you're *expletive deleted*ed up from getting shot at by brown people. Let's go to the range!"
Range therapy is perfectly awesome for some vets with PTSD. For some, as you can see, it's tragic. I'd say it's a great idea to get to know someone first before you jump headfirst into their "treatment"
I know vets who have violent, violent reactions to certain sounds and combinations of sounds. I would not know this after having just met them.
As to your last statement, it has nothing to do with the discussion, but no. I don't think every violent criminal shows warning signs.
The assbag involved had most assuredly shown adequate warning signs.
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i'd have to see if it was a credible threat or drunk talking from butt.
helping some folks is darn inconvenient and its not for everybody. i actually relied on god for a great deal of my protection. i got all the crazy ones. if i didn't have kids i still would. i won't expose them . beyond a point anyway. dealing with crazy vets means pray harder. and oddly you pray for them . if they get what help they need it automatically protects you. it can be more exciting than vegas. and can be tragic as well. very very rarely it can be rewarding but those times are real special and make the other stuff worth it.
as far as i know this guy was all talk till this event
When guys are all talk, and you don't know literally ANYTHING about them, it's dumb to hand them a weapon.
Maybe he was all talk when he threatened his family.
It's still a bad idea to hand someone a weapon who makes such threats, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON.
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When guys are all talk, and you don't know literally ANYTHING about them, it's dumb to hand them a weapon.
Maybe he was all talk when he threatened his family.
It's still a bad idea to hand someone a weapon who makes such threats, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON.
maybe but i wasn't there. i have a hard time making those calls when i am there. its a real crap shoot. this guy fooled two guys
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maybe but i wasn't there. i have a hard time making those calls when i am there. its a real crap shoot. this guy fooled two guys
That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?
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So you'd go to his house? Conduct detailed interviews with his family? How many hours would you feel like you need to spend before you'd be comfortable?
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Sometimes, I think our sensitivity about gun restrictions can get in the way of common sense. That's my take on this - believing in few government restrictions doesn't mean you have to operate the same way as a person.
It's common sense to think twice about taking people with mental issues shooting, especially if you don't know each other.
It's also plain smart to do as Fitz says here - "gee, all I know about this guy is that he knows how to shoot and is mentally disturbed in some way. Maybe I ought not to hand him a gun until I know more."
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That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?
how well did they know him exactly? its a bit unclear to me. wasn't the other dead guy his neighbor?
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So you'd go to his house? Conduct detailed interviews with his family? How many hours would you feel like you need to spend before you'd be comfortable?
Ok
Snark is getting too thick, now. Im done with you.
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how well did they know him exactly? its a bit unclear to me. wasn't the other dead guy his neighbor?
The article mentions Kyle having a tough time finding the guys house, and says he didn't know the guy, but had spoken to his mother
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That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?
Just guessing here, but maybe he felt if the guy was a fellow service member, that was good enough to establish a bond of trust. Apparently, it was not enough.
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Just guessing here, but maybe he felt if the guy was a fellow service member, that was good enough to establish a bond of trust. Apparently, it was not enough.
Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.
That goes for most of humanity.
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Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.
That goes for most of humanity.
I know, but I would imagine sometimes people put too much stock in the whole fraternal thing.
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Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.
That goes for most of humanity.
yup you see it with 12 step groups and churches. hes one of us so hes ok. there are predators who capitalize on it.
and folks WANT to believe so they set themselves up
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they did a real nasty piece on kyle on prison planet/info wars
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Don't get me wrong
I think Kyle was a fantastic person, and admire him greatly
Infowars can go to hell
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yea i didn't post link on purpose. i thought my opinion of crazy al couldn't get any lower. i was wrong
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How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not go to the range with me?
After reading your Guns For Sale ad and knowing that Guido the Killer Pimp is hot on your trail?
Hell no. :O
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Ok
Snark is getting too thick, now. Im done with you.
If you're going to blame a murder victim for not preventing the crime that killed them, seems fair to ask what you'd have done differently in their place. And "something more that would have prevented it" doesn't count.
After reading your Guns For Sale ad and knowing that Guido the Killer Pimp is hot on your trail?
Hell no. :O
Wisconsin is too damn cold to go shooting anyway. :P
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If you're going to blame a murder victim for not preventing the crime that killed them, seems fair to ask what you'd have done differently in their place. And "something more that would have prevented it" doesn't count.
Wisconsin is too damn cold to go shooting anyway. :P
I mentioned getting to know someone with PTSD before you hand them a gun. You started talking about background checks and whatnot. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in being a smartass.
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I mentioned getting to know someone with PTSD before you hand them a gun. You started talking about background checks and whatnot. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in being a smartass.
Big assumption there. I'm interested in forcing you to think through your statements beyond "Well he should have done something!" Most folks are murdered by people they know. The majority of rapes and child molestations happen by close friends and relatives of the victims. I'm merely pointing out that "getting to know someone" probably wouldn't have prevented this, and asking what you think you would do differently and if you honestly think that would have changed things.
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Big assumption there. I'm interested in forcing you to think through your statements beyond "Well he should have done something!" Most folks are murdered by people they know. The majority of rapes and child molestations happen by close friends and relatives of the victims. I'm merely pointing out that "getting to know someone" probably wouldn't have prevented this, and asking what you think you would do differently and if you honestly think that would have changed things.
I didn't say "Well, he should have done SOMETHING." I also never said that "getting to know" the guy would have stopped his violence. It may have, however, made Kyle decide not to hand the guy a loaded weapon.
I said taking a mentally disturbed person with a history of threats to a shooting range to unwind is unwise.
I stand by that statement, and I have thought it through.
Your opinion seems to be that he didn't know the guy had made threats on his family.
I think he did. Even if he didn't, it's something that's tough to keep under wraps. If he had even a modicum of familiarity with the shooter, he would have found out about the incident. Stuff like that tends to not stay secret very long.
He then may have chosen a different activity to help his new friend.
What would I have done differently? Not assumed that just because someone was a vet that he was strong enough to avoid going on a rampage because of his mental issues.
Someone being a vet does not automatically make me trust them. I don't make it a habit of going on shooting outings with strangers.
"Most people are murdered by people they know"
How is that relevant at all to the discussion? Do most people take someone they know, who recently had an encounter with the cops after threatening to kill their entire family, and hand them a loaded weapon?
You're not seeming to understand what I'm saying, and that's fine. We can agree to disagree.
My central point is, and has been, that taking someone with a recent history of mental instability to a shooting range is a terrible idea. Honestly, I'm not even sure how that point can possibly be debated.
If kyle had instead met this guy, taken him somewhere, and given him a bottle of antidepressants at random, and the dude later committed suicide because it was the wrong treatment, would you still feel the same way about Kyle's actions? After all, kyle's (and others, such as the wounded warrior programs) shooting trips were meant as a form of therapy for these soldiers.
When you try to help someone with mental issues, it's important to try to gain an understanding of what that person's issues are. Either kyle was unaware of the violent threats, or he knew about them. Which either means he was trying to "help" a distressed vet without knowing what the problem was, or he knew and took the guy to a range. Either way, it was a bad call.
This is not blaming him for his own death, nor is it me saying Kyle was a bad guy. It's me saying he made a mistake.
Kyle was a stand up person, an excellent warrior. He made a bad decision. Those two facts are not related. One can admire another person and recognize when they do something unwise.
You have mentioned a few times on here that when people are remembering their service fondly, they're looking through rose-colored glasses. I submit that you're doing the same in this case.
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they did a real nasty piece on kyle on prison planet/info wars
Those quotes from his book do make it look like he may have been a less than high-minded character to say the least. Could have been taken out of context, haven't read the autobiography in it's entirety. Could have just been 'embellished for effect' writing by the ghostwriter.
Considering his experiences I wonder if a sense of invincibility slipped him into the situation that ended him.
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Those quotes from his book do make it look like he may have been a less than high-minded character to say the least. Could have been taken out of context, haven't read the autobiography in it's entirety. Could have just been 'embellished for effect' writing by the ghostwriter.
Considering his experiences I wonder if a sense of invincibility slipped him into the situation that ended him.
The comments over on prison planet are disgusting.
People talking about his death as "justice" for the "lives he destroyed."
I've not read the book, but I have read excerpts. He talked with some regret about killing a woman through the scope of his weapon, because she was attempting to detonate a device near troops. Killing one to save more, seems noble to me.
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Rose colored glasses? LOL!!!
I don't have any emotional attachment to the guy, and I'd be saying the same things if he was some accountant who'd never served a day in his life.
You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't justified in an attempt to cast blame for this on the victim. "Dude murders other dudes to steal their truck" is just as likely as "Troubled vet goes on a murderous rampage after flashback."
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Rose colored glasses? LOL!!!
I don't have any emotional attachment to the guy, and I'd be saying the same things if he was some accountant who'd never served a day in his life.
You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't justified in an attempt to cast blame for this on the victim. "Dude murders other dudes to steal their truck" is just as likely as "Troubled vet goes on a murderous rampage after flashback."
Are you in the habit of giving weapons to people you don't know?
At the very least, maybe if he hadn't taken this dude to the range, the dude may have shot someone else and stolen their truck.
It's about mitigating risk. That, in my mind, includes not giving loaded weapons to people I don't know.
Sure, someone i know COULD murder me. But that's not what happened in this case, is it?
Do you or do you not disagree with the following statements. Independantly.
1.) it's unwise to take people you don't know at all to a range and hand them a weapon.
2.) It's unwise to take people with mental issues and/or a recent threat of violence to a shooting range and hand them a weapon.
I'll also put this out here again, since you didn't seem to read my post. Here's a quote...
This is not blaming him for his own death, nor is it me saying Kyle was a bad guy. It's me saying he made a mistake.
You've addressed the last sentence of my post, and ignored the rest.
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1. Define "didn't know at all", what level of knowing someone you'd require personally, and if you think that would have prevented this.
2. Define mental issues. And depends on the circumstances.
And as to the qouted sentence, any time you try to help someone else with ptsd there are risks. Doesn't make it a mistake. And it doesn't mean that the guy wouldn't have shot him and stolen his truck if he'd just been stopping by to "get to know" him prior to more activities.
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I will say that the interchanges here are really making me ponder as to how does one get to know someone sufficiently to trust them with a firearm. Much food for thought here for me.
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Since I've already repeatedly alluded to my parameters, why don't you define the conditions in which YOU would not feel comfortable taking someone to the range?
I don't know about you, But I call any situation in which I am shot to death and my truck stolen from me to be a mistake
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To number one, I'd say one should at least know someone well enough to know if they've made violent threats against their family that resulted in a police encounter...
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Alluded to is not the same as defined. "I'd just get to know him, and then I'd be able to TELL!" is silly.
And really!?!?!?! Any violent crime victim has made a mistake? Guy gets mugged, must've made a mistake. Woman gets raped, must have made a mistake. Etc. Wow...
I'm also saying that the solutions that you propose very likely wouldn't have prevented this. If you think hanging out and chatting with a guy and/or his family for a few hours will inevitably lead to their revealing the unvarnished truth about their most embarrassing incidents you're delusional.
"Well, he has been drinking too much since he got back from Iraq. He got a DUI and he's got a bad temper when he's drunk." Oh hey look, exactly what virtually every single person with ptsd issues is like, and how their family would describe it to a famous stranger offering to help. Would that have given you foresight to be able to know he'd rob you?
I go to public ranges, so in a very real sense every time I shoot I'm "at the range with people I know nothing about." I wouldn't take anyone I knew to be a drug addict, or an unreformed violent criminal but then I wouldn't knowingly do anything with those sort of folks. I've met people at ranges before where all I knew about them was that they had a rifle I wanted to buy.
Bad things happen. We can't always prevent them, and saying "Anything something bad happens it must be because the victim screwed up" is, again, just... wow.
To number one, I'd say one should at least know someone well enough to know if they've made violent threats against their family that resulted in a police encounter...
Which you'd find out how again?
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I'm still having trouble working up a scenario in which sumdood is able to take out not one, but two, armed dudes at a range.
BOTH of his companions were in Condition White?
How does that happen? I mean, okay, here we are at the range, and we know that the guy we're helping is not 100% compos mentis and we don't take any precautions to watch each other's backs?
I just find that . . . bordering on absurd.
What did I miss?
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Thanks, balog, for confirming that you haven't been reading what I've been writing.
You can feel free to keep throwing ridicule, though. It helps your case
Many violent crime victims make mistakes that help contribute to their deaths. It doesn't mean we are assigning blame.
Folks who die in bad areas who are not armed. Do we not frequently say "they should have been armed?"
You've never said something like that?
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I don't know about you, But I call any situation in which I am shot to death and my truck stolen from me to be a mistake
And really!?!?!?! Any violent crime victim has made a mistake? Guy gets mugged, must've made a mistake. Woman gets raped, must have made a mistake. Etc. Wow...
You're right, there's obviously no way I'm reading and comprehending what you're saying. Only possible explanation.
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Ok enough.