Changing attitudes towards gay marriage

[Strings]

>Simple to me.  To build a following, you need converts.  You won't get many impressionable young adults coming around if you advertise yourself as a Satan worshiping cult.  <

That's a bit of a false dichotomy there.

>Biased selection.  We don't see the "big bad cults" derived from Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism, because they're mostly somewhere far away.<

Can you give me an example?

I suppose you could claim that many of the Islamic terrorist orgs are cults, but the assertion is still there: most cult leaders choose to base their cults on the teachings of Judeo/Christian faiths. Is it because that's the dominant family of faiths in the west?

>Very many feel the need to to claim Jesus for their own use.<

That's actually a very astute observation

[lee n. field]

>Simple to me.  To build a following, you need converts.  You won't get many impressionable young adults coming around if you advertise yourself as a Satan worshiping cult.  <

That's a bit of a false dichotomy there.

And I'm thinking there's plenty of impressionable young adults that would go in for a satanic cult.

>Biased selection.  We don't see the "big bad cults" derived from Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism, because they're mostly somewhere far away.<

Can you give me an example?

No, I can't, because they're all far away and I don't know much about them.

Hmm.   The Hindu Thuggee cult., perhaps.

I suppose you could claim that many of the Islamic terrorist orgs are cults, but the assertion is still there: most cult leaders choose to base their cults on the teachings of Judeo/Christian faiths. Is it because that's the dominant family of faiths in the west?

>Very many feel the need to to claim Jesus for their own use.<

That's actually a very astute observation

[Strings]

Didn't mean to derail the thread with the cult discussions. Just always found it kinda odd, that so many cults in the west use Christian trappings, when other faiths might lend themselves to cult use more easily.

Honestly, I think it would be easier to form a cult based on pagan teachings: promises of personal power (seductive to teens), morals that can be viewed as more lax than Christian, plus the rebellion aspect against parents. MUCH less obvious twisting needed to make a cult out of it...

This is in no way a bash on Christianity: any faith can be twisted this way

[Perd Hapley]

Perhaps the "Christian" cults are the ones more likely to get the cult label. The stereotypical cult has the charismatic leader with total control over his fanatical believers. Such a cult isn't recruiting rebels who want power and sex and a crazy good time; it's recruiting vulnerable young people in need of guidance. The successful cult of this type will go with something familiar, and with an air of authority.

Just a spur-of-the-moment theory.

[Strings]

You could be right, fistful.

But wouldn't it be easier to lure those impressionable young children with promises of power?

[ArfinGreebly]

Well, you could take a bunch of young kids and teach them songs about a "glorious leader" who's going to save the world, lower the seas, and all that jazz, and he doesn't have to be a "religious" figure at all.

Hell, he could just be a public figure.  Like a president or something.

[Perd Hapley]

You could be right, fistful.

But wouldn't it be easier to lure those impressionable young children with promises of power?

Not if what they're looking for is an authority figure, to relieve them of the responsibility of having power over their own lives.

[Strings]

Ok... that side of it, I hadn't thought of. Very good point

[Perd Hapley]

See, isn't that so much better? To have me do your thinking for you? Why struggle, my child? Just give in.

[makattak]

Not if what they're looking for is an authority figure, to relieve them of the responsibility of having power over their own lives.

Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

[Strings]

Guess I'm looking at it as I was at that age: the lure of personal power would have been VERY strong, and I would figure many teens would feel the same way.

Where Christian trappings would lend to "reward in the hereafter", I would almost think paganism would be easier for a would-be cult leader to twist to attract these kids. "Follow me, do as I say, and I will show you how to [insert desired result]"

Remember, we're talking about folks who twist a religion for personal gain, not the actual teachings of that religion

[Perd Hapley]

Where Christian trappings would lend to "reward in the hereafter", I would almost think paganism would be easier for a would-be cult leader to twist to attract these kids. "Follow me, do as I say, and I will show you how to [insert desired result]"

Christian cultists have been very successful at that, with various age groups. I assume you're not entirely unfamiliar with the Word of Faith scam? Or the Prosperity Gospel? If not, the basic idea is that God wants you to be happy, healthy and wealthy, and if you just had enough faith, you'd have all God wants for you. If you have cancer, you just need more faith, and you can cure yourself. Economic troubles? Just show God how much faith you have by sending all of that money to my church, and God will pay you back ten-fold!

In fact, any problem you have, just speak a positive confession, and your problems will go away. Any problems you do have are your own fault, because you spoke negative things into your life. Silly you.

Not all Word of Faith teachers are so far off the rails as to be considered cultists, but some of the big names are Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn.

[zxcvbob]

I like the new avatar, but I can't tell if it's Martin Luther or Friar Tuck.   

[Strings]

Interesting concept they have going...  

To switch back just a bit towards the OP: can one of the Christians here possibly explain the mental gymnastics necessary for the "alternative lifestyle Christian"?

[Perd Hapley]

I like the new avatar, but I can't tell if it's Martin Luther or Friar Tuck.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada

Since I'm apparently all intolerant and stuff.

Interesting concept they have going... 

And lucrative.

[zxcvbob]

Interesting concept they have going...  

To switch back just a bit towards the OP: can one of the Christians here possibly explain the mental gymnastics necessary for the "alternative lifestyle Christian"?

Not sure what ALC you are talking about, monasticism? (actually that could just as easily be Buhddist, etc)  Or do you mean homosexual "alternative lifestyles" claiming to to Christians?  Or something like the Branch Davidians?   Seriously, I dunno what you're asking -- not that I'll necessarily be able to answer.

[Strings]

The homosexual "alternative lifestyle Christians". Hence my comment of "going back to the OP (kinda)"

I've never understood that concept: how do you follow a religion that (at best) says a major part of who you are is a major sin?

Makes about as much sense to me as a Jewish Nazi

[ArfinGreebly]

I'll offer a couple of possibilities.

1)  rationalization - I want to belong, but I don't want to give up this behavior, therefore I shall invent a line of justification that permits this contradiction.

2)  subversion - I want to nullify/subvert/hijack this organization, so I shall propose a plausible argument in favor of accepting this behavior, thus making anyone who opposes it into a hater.

Those may not be the only vectors, but they'll do for now.

[zxcvbob]

The homosexual "alternative lifestyle Christians". Hence my comment of "going back to the OP (kinda)"
I've never understood that concept: how do you follow a religion that (at best) says a major part of who you are is a major sin?
Makes about as much sense to me as a Jewish Nazi

Yeah, I agree with that.  One of the churches around here (Lutheran I think) ordained a lesbian preacher.  No idea how they justify that, I guess they think it's edgy and progressive, and that somehow trumps 1 Timothy 3, the whole book of Titus, and the last half of Romans 1.

I also think it's possible to reject homosexuality as immoral and sinful without judging the homosexual.  (I have too much of sin of my own to deal with to worry about yours, see Matthew 7:3-5)  It's God's prerogative to judge, not mine.  That doesn't make it OK, just none of my business.  I do sometimes recognize heresy though...

[Strings]

I was mainly thinking of Leviticus 18:22 on this.

Met an "alternative lifestyle" preacher at my aunt's funeral: lesbian woman who was dating one of my cousins. Woman was a fanatic. Was supposedly there to comfort my cousin, but was too busy getting off on the service ("PRAISE GAWD!" every other sentence, while my cousin broke down).

She was lucky to survive the funeral: most of us were packing, and everybody was getting seriously disgusted

[makattak]

I was mainly thinking of Leviticus 18:22 on this.

Met an "alternative lifestyle" preacher at my aunt's funeral: lesbian woman who was dating one of my cousins. Woman was a fanatic. Was supposedly there to comfort my cousin, but was too busy getting off on the service ("PRAISE GAWD!" every other sentence, while my cousin broke down).

She was lucky to survive the funeral: most of us were packing, and everybody was getting seriously disgusted

As noted, you also have to ignore much of Romans, Timothy, etc...

It's quite simple, however. They ignore it. Most of the "mainline Protestant" churches are already ignoring large parts of the bible as "outdated" or "metaphor" or "symbolic". It's how they get rid of the things that make them feel uncomfortable. (I have a relative who is a pastor in one of these Churches.)

They've "modernized" the bible. (Generally by throwing large parts of it out.)

[MillCreek]

And to anyone who may have problems with your sons, I commend to you Deuteronomy 21: 18-21. 

[lee n. field]

Interesting concept they have going...  

To switch back just a bit towards the OP: can one of the Christians here possibly explain the mental gymnastics necessary for the "alternative lifestyle Christian"?

"Alternative lifestyle Christian" == "gay Christian"?

No, I can't.  It requires a lot of very special pleading, a lot of humming real loud at certain passages of scripture.  "Shall not inherit the kingdom of God." seems clear to me.

[MillCreek]

"Alternative lifestyle Christian" == "gay Christian"?

No, I can't.  It requires a lot of very special pleading, a lot of humming real loud at certain passages of scripture.  "Shall not inherit the kingdom of God." seems clear to me.

You left some parts out: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." (I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11)

The unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers and swindlers will also not inherit the Kingdom.  So if you posted in the drunk thread, or mentioned how much you covet some cool firearm, you are SOL. 

[Perd Hapley]

You left some parts out: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." (I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11)

The unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers and swindlers will also not inherit the Kingdom.  So if you posted in the drunk thread, or mentioned how much you covet some cool firearm, you are SOL. 

And?