Author Topic: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage  (Read 40406 times)

Ron

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #175 on: December 12, 2012, 09:39:41 AM »
Modern theology has become an adjunct to the already pervasive post modern materialist philosophy that dominates our culture.

In short, the Bible is no longer viewed as the revealed word of God or even true let alone The Truth.

It seems to me as a layman that modern theology erects an impenetrable barrier between things spiritual (unknowable) and things material (knowable).

Faith therefor instead of being an exercise in reading Christs words to forgive one another, love one another, applying it to your life and believing you are pleasing the great God of all creation becomes something different.

Biblical faith is based on real space time claims about Jesus and who he was as told in the Bible. It is not a contentless leap of faith. It is a weigh the evidence, compare the worldview with others and make a decision to believe the claims type faith.

Faith in the post modern, new theology church becomes an act of self actualization. The content of what you believe isn't important, what is important is that you  are believing. It is a faith in faith, contentless. There are no eternal truths or commands to be concerned with ultimately. Spiritual truth exists in a plane that cannot be quantified in material terms.

The modern church that has abandoned believing the Bible as truth has become nothing more than "The Secret" with Christian terminology.

http://thesecret.tv/    

Sooo, that is how you can have many "Christians" that believe there is no conflict between their homosexuality and their Christianity.

Having said that, I also believe there are Christians who are believers in Christ as he is presented to us in the Bible who also happen to be gay. The body of believers is made up of all kinds. We all must work out our own Christian life in light of the Bible, struggling along sometimes wondering about the apparent unfairness of life.    

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

makattak

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #176 on: December 12, 2012, 10:45:24 AM »
And to anyone who may have problems with your sons, I commend to you Deuteronomy 21: 18-21. 

18 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city [a]at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.



Can you tell me what the problem here is? The law isn't specific, but given it involves going to the elders of the town and admitting you've failed in raising your son (and them agreeing that you've been a big failure), he'd be doing something egregious, likely, something that already requires stoning. That's the part about: "so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear". Note that it isn't "young men will hear of it and fear." It's a matter of removing sin from your midst, even if it comes from your own son.

Not "he doesn't clean his room!"
 
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MillCreek

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #177 on: December 12, 2012, 11:00:13 AM »
There is no problem at all, if you believe in the literal and inerrant application of the Old Testament to your daily life.  I suspect that most people today would find this approach to be somewhat harsh and is of course inconsistent with contemporary legal codes in the Western world.
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MechAg94

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #178 on: December 12, 2012, 11:26:12 AM »
You left some parts out: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." (I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11)

The unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers and swindlers will also not inherit the Kingdom.  So if you posted in the drunk thread, or mentioned how much you covet some cool firearm, you are SOL.  
From my background, sin isn't the issue anyway, Jesus took the punishment for all of them already.  All Christians sin and many or most commit the same sins over and over.  I guess part of the difference is these homosexual Christians justify their sins and don't name them to God and never go further than just Salvation (assuming they truly believe at all).  Not for me to worry about I guess.  I just don't want to be part of a Church that justified that behavior. 

A question that might also be considered is what other sins have Christians commonly accepted or justified in many places?  gossiping and maligning?  lying?  petty theft?  adultery?
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zahc

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #179 on: December 12, 2012, 11:46:07 AM »
Quote
Perhaps the "Christian" cults are the ones more likely to get the cult label.

This is definitely the case for a simple linguistic reason. The term "cult" has different senses in standard English and Christianese; a common occurrance in language. Compare the common and academic sense of words like:

"work" (in physics, means "the vector dot product of force and displacement")
"heat", "color", etc--specialized meanings in academia
"means" or "good" (these take on very specific [and differing!] meaning in economics contexts)

The word "cult" in the American English that I speak means something like "small, obscure, possibly dangerous religion". In the specialized jargon of Christianese, it means something like "heretical Christianity offshoot". This is why Mormonism, 7th day adventism, some radical Pentecostals, and Catholicism (ooo yes I did go there) qualify as "cult (Christianese)" but not "cult (English)". So the "Christian cults" have a double-chance of getting the label.

Note: In Christianese, different religions actually don't get the label "cult", they are simply "pagan". Which word "pagan" also has special meaning in Christianese, meaning "any other religion". Islam, Hinduism, Statism are all "pagan" in Christianese. But in normal English "pagan" has a more specific meaning.

Other words with special meaning in Christianese:
Holy--separate from the world [less connotation of divinity than standard Holy]
Saint--any Christian whatsoever [no relation to Catholic sainthood; does not denote a special person]
Grace--obviously has special meaning compared to the modern sense

You also get archaic English meanings kicking around, like the transitive verb form of "suffer". Jargon is sometimes useful if it allows more precision, but you have to wonder the affect on the Great Commission, especially considering non-native English speakers.
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makattak

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #180 on: December 12, 2012, 11:58:00 AM »
When applied to a religion, "cult" means what it was taken from latin to mean: secret, hidden.

Any religion that withholds information or has secret rituals or forbids sharing or speaking with others about the religion is a cult.

A religion (however unorthodox) that clearly lays out its principals for everyone, believer or not, is not a cult.

Sikhism: not a cult. Scientologists: definitely a cult. Amish: not a cult. Islam: possibly a cult (takkiya and what have you)etc...
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #181 on: December 12, 2012, 01:24:39 PM »
When applied to a religion, "cult" means what it was taken from latin to mean: secret, hidden.

Any religion that withholds information or has secret rituals or forbids sharing or speaking with others about the religion is a cult.

A religion (however unorthodox) that clearly lays out its principals for everyone, believer or not, is not a cult.

Sikhism: not a cult. Scientologists: definitely a cult. Amish: not a cult. Islam: possibly a cult (takkiya and what have you)etc...

Good distinction, but "open" religions tend to become cultural and political systems, not private pathways to Transcendence.  "Cults" are not necessarily bad; in fact they served as the secret opposition to "open" tyranny from time immemorial.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #182 on: December 12, 2012, 01:38:52 PM »

When applied to a religion, "cult" means what it was taken from latin to mean: secret, hidden.

Any religion that withholds information or has secret rituals or forbids sharing or speaking with others about the religion is a cult.

A religion (however unorthodox) that clearly lays out its principals for everyone, believer or not, is not a cult.

Sikhism: not a cult. Scientologists: definitely a cult. Amish: not a cult. Islam: possibly a cult (takkiya and what have you) etc...


How do you arrive at that conclusion?

My reluctance to discuss the subject has nothing to do with "secrets" and everything to do with swimming upstream against a current of misinformation and persecution.

There are literally hundreds of published titles -- source works -- so "secret" would seem to be incorrect, and that doesn't include hundreds (thousands, actually) of recorded lectures.  Do you know something I don't?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:43:00 PM by ArfinGreebly »
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

erictank

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #183 on: December 12, 2012, 01:50:06 PM »
Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

Not to men like you...

 =D

makattak

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #184 on: December 12, 2012, 02:13:11 PM »
How do you arrive at that conclusion?

My reluctance to discuss the subject has nothing to do with "secrets" and everything to do with swimming upstream against a current of misinformation and persecution.

There are literally hundreds of published titles -- source works -- so "secret" would seem to be incorrect, and that doesn't include hundreds (thousands, actually) of recorded lectures.  Do you know something I don't?

Am I mistaken in my understanding that Scientologists are not given the full information about the religion until they get to the upper tiers? And that at each successive tier they are given more information? (I don't know their specific ranking of followers.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

mtnbkr

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #185 on: December 12, 2012, 02:53:28 PM »
Am I mistaken in my understanding that Scientologists are not given the full information about the religion until they get to the upper tiers? And that at each successive tier they are given more information? (I don't know their specific ranking of followers.)

Sounds like the Freemasons. ;)

Chris

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #186 on: December 12, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »

Am I mistaken in my understanding that Scientologists are not given the full information about the religion until they get to the upper tiers? And that at each successive tier they are given more information? (I don't know their specific ranking of followers.)


The entire subject is described and exposed in books and recordings (formerly "tapes" but now also CDs and DVDs).

Early on (back in the fifties) when things were in a state of fairly constant flux, certain methods and processes were used, and it was discovered that some of these were best employed only after a certain amount of case "undercutting."  The foundations for these are still available in the books and lectures, but for managed case progress the more advanced material isn't addressed until certain milestones are reached.

You could consider the application of advanced procedures "secret" but the thing is that the fundamental concepts, principles, and outlines are still publicly available data, still published in books and still sold in the lectures.  If I may draw a parallel, there are things you don't teach a novice in martial arts.  They're not secret per se, but it is understood that the novice isn't really prepared for that stuff.  He can see it demonstrated, there's a ton of written material explaining it, and the essential principles are well known.  Still, that part of the training is reserved for those who have achieved a degree of readiness.  This is not a perfect analogy, but the idea is that you don't teach or train above the level of individual preparedness.

There is no requirement for "belief" in a conventional sense.  One discovers what is true for oneself.  In the course of studying the source materials, rote memorization is eschewed in favor of comprehension and understanding, and actual understanding is expressed as an ability to apply.  In the course of reviewing the actual material in one's own case (one's own memories and history), one discovers stuff.  In the course of that process, one arrives at new understandings.

At no point does anyone tell or instruct one what to think or feel about what is discovered.  And you will never, ever, hear anyone ask "how does that make you feel?"  (Well, you might, but you would understand that it's a joke.)

Now, as far as "secrets," the contents of one's own case files are confidential.  But those aren't "church secrets," those are your secrets, and there's a strict code of conduct related to that.

If you read a book, or if you read several of the books, and you find that -- for you, personally -- it's all rubbish, then for you personally it's all rubbish.  On the other hand, if you read some books, listen to a few lectures, and decide -- for yourself, personally -- that there is something worthwhile here and something worth exploring and understanding better, then for you personally the subject would hold some validity.

There are some really basic principles that show up in the basic books, like the idea that mankind is a spiritual construct, not a purely physical bio-machine.   Like the idea that mankind seeks to survive and that his problems and solutions are all derived from that.  Like the idea that ethical conduct is essential to a happy life.  The idea that communication is hugely important.  That one is responsible for his own decisions and responsible for his own life.  That it is possible to help others.

What you will not find is some deep, dark, special-handshake-and-weird-ceremony "inner circle" where the code of conduct is different from any of the published codes of conduct.  The Code of Honor applies everywhere.  The principles published in the book "The Way To Happiness" apply at all levels.  No "hidden standard" for "insiders" versus "the public."  Kind of in the same way that The Four Rules apply just as much at GunSite as they do at your local range.

The Press (the same ones who bring you those exciting episodes of "fun with gun control") delight in discovering scandals in (or related to) Scientology, although they're somewhat more circumspect nowadays, since the church hits back.  Yes, they maintain a fleet of heavy-hitting lawyers, and have ever since they were attacked by the US government for offering to help with astronaut training.  Yes, the Foundation Church in D.C. was raided by the FBI in 1963, and the case took ten years to resolve, with the dot-gov eventually returning all the seized records and materials.  That was only the first of many efforts by governments to eliminate them.  I would imagine that if you had an organization which was the object of governmental and media attacks over several decades, you might want to maintain a fleet of attorneys as well.

I no longer expect the church to get anything like a fair hearing in the press, on the Internet, or even in court.  Its expansion is a function of acceptance of its merits, along with a willingness to defend itself.

In 1972, I attended a lecture.  The next week, I took a communications course.  The week after that, I read my first book, entitled "The Scandal Of Scientology," which was supposed to be "an objective, investigative report" on the church and its activities.  By the time was I finished I was confused and angry.  The book described, among other things, the course I had just completed, and the description was so incorrect, so misleading, and just plain wrong, that I couldn't conceive how anyone doing an "impartial" review could write that crap.  I took more courses and read some of the source works.  I concluded that the author of Scandal was full of it.


So, no, there's no "big secret" about the church or about the religion and its philosophies.  I will concede that there's not just a single tome to which people can point and say "what I believe is all in that book."  Hubbard was astoundingly prolific, and he wrote and lectured actively on the subject for more than thirty years.  So there's a ton of material, and you won't get through any significant portion of it in a day or a week or a month.  However, in a day or a week or a month you can achieve a solid grasp of the subject and its aims and goals.

It is not a subject that invites "consensus" but rather individual understanding, so don't expect to go somewhere magical on the Interwebz and find a discussion forum where people "argue" the principles.  If you find that you can use it to improve your life, then you're better off.  If you find it makes no sense, that's fine too.  However, I will caution you that anywhere tyranny is welcome or group think is encouraged, you will find hostility to the subject.

Investigate for yourself.  Find a book or three.  If you don't like what you find, then at least you have an honest foundation for your opinion, and you're not operating on rumor.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Chuck Dye

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #187 on: December 12, 2012, 04:16:39 PM »
Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

Hmmm... an unattributed quote from a movie based on comic books. Couldn't we have had some Aristotle (with attribution?)
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #188 on: December 12, 2012, 04:24:05 PM »
Hmmm...

I have seen some... bad things, attributed to Scientology. Mayhap this is similar to other issues we've seen with other faiths?

Sorta like blaming all Christians for Jonestown? Maybe it's just certain groups within Scientology, who cause problems and make the rest look bad?
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #189 on: December 12, 2012, 04:45:39 PM »

Hmmm...

I have seen some... bad things, attributed to Scientology. Mayhap this is similar to other issues we've seen with other faiths?

Sorta like blaming all Christians for Jonestown? Maybe it's just certain groups within Scientology, who cause problems and make the rest look bad?


Well, there aren't really "groups within" Scientology.  There are people who decide they have a "better idea," and they go off and do something else (and occasionally call it Scientology, until the actual church finds out), and there are people who, while still members of the church, do stoopid stuff, and then try to hide behind the organization.  One shining example of this was the lady who engineered the breakups of a number of couples (including my own marriage) and who, when finally caught at it, was expelled.  That sucked, and didn't need to happen, but it wasn't "the church" who did that.  It was a power-trippin' individual.

Sadly, no organization is immune to that crap.  They do better than most, but every so often someone will manage to screw things up.  It took them a while to realize that there really were hostile entities willing to infiltrate for purposes of disruption.  And there's the usual quota of people who, despite everything, can't keep their turds together and blame it on the church.

Hey, it's humans.  Whatcha gonna do?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 04:48:47 PM by ArfinGreebly »
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

sanglant

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #190 on: December 12, 2012, 05:13:44 PM »
Someone call Orville because I need a boat load of popcorn.


have something to ship? ??? [popcorn]

White Horseradish

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #191 on: December 12, 2012, 05:39:06 PM »
Hubbard was astoundingly prolific
That he was. I've been meaning to read some of what he wrote that wasn't sci-fi just to have a foundation for an opinion, but the three or so fiction books of his that I have read were so singularly awful, I keep forgetting to do so. The man was a terrible writer, and how he got even moderately well know in that pursuit is a complete mystery to me.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #192 on: December 12, 2012, 06:06:32 PM »

That he was. I've been meaning to read some of what he wrote that wasn't sci-fi just to have a foundation for an opinion, but the three or so fiction books of his that I have read were so singularly awful, I keep forgetting to do so. The man was a terrible writer, and how he got even moderately well know in that pursuit is a complete mystery to me.


Yeah, I pretty much don't read his fiction after the fifties.  Get your hands on his early work and the difference is startling.  Final Blackout is good.  Ole Doc Methuselah, quite good.  His early pulp is good.  Several of his early shorts.  When he re-entered the world of fiction later on, too much had changed.

Oh, well.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #193 on: December 13, 2012, 12:02:11 AM »
There is no problem at all, if you believe in the literal and inerrant application of the Old Testament to your daily life.  I suspect that most people today would find this approach to be somewhat harsh and is of course inconsistent with contemporary legal codes in the Western world.


Quote
Thinking about it: why is it we ALWAYS start talking about immorality and divorce the legal codes of a society that died 2000 years ago when these threads start?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #194 on: December 13, 2012, 12:11:28 AM »
Who needs a cult, or any other organized religion? Just do your thing.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Father-Carves-Pentagram-into-Son-on-12-12-12-183209891.html?dr
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charby

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #195 on: December 13, 2012, 12:14:42 AM »
have something to ship? ??? [popcorn]

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #196 on: December 13, 2012, 12:15:56 AM »
Note: In Christianese, different religions actually don't get the label "cult", they are simply "pagan". Which word "pagan" also has special meaning in Christianese, meaning "any other religion". Islam, Hinduism, Statism are all "pagan" in Christianese. But in normal English "pagan" has a more specific meaning.


Says who? Hinduism might be called paganism, as it fits the usual definition,* but I haven't noticed any Christians referring to Muslims as pagans.  =|


* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan
pa·gan [pey-guhn]
noun
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. Synonyms: polytheist.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
4. a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.
adjective
5. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, heathenish, idolatrous, polytheistic. Antonyms: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, monotheistic.
6. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
7. irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.
8. of a person deemed backward, savage, or uncivilized or morally or spiritually stunted. Synonyms: primitive, uncultivated, uncultured, heathenish, barbaric, barbarous, philistine. Antonyms: civilized, cultivated, cultured, urbane.


Also, "cult" seems to have many different meanings. For example, Webster's offers as one definition: "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious." I could be wrong, but I doubt Webster's is just taking that usage from the people you church with.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 12:38:45 AM by fistful »
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #197 on: December 13, 2012, 01:12:11 AM »
I'm not sure what the hell was going through the mind of the father in fistful's linked article. Nor am I sure what your point was, man

Crazy people will do crazy things?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #198 on: December 13, 2012, 08:07:48 AM »
I'm not sure what the hell was going through the mind of the father in fistful's linked article. Nor am I sure what your point was, man

Crazy people will do crazy things?

No point.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Ron

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2012, 09:11:34 AM »
For a substantial part of our history the majority of folks in the country were Christian in some way shape or form.

As a result we ended up with a form of cultural Christianity in the USA that was intermingled with our civic culture to the point where they were almost indistinguishable.

While polls may show we are still a religious country and still predominantly self identify as "Christian" in most cases, the form of "Christianity" has changed dramatically. Peoples religion has increasingly become a "spiritual" exercise that has little to no impact on their daily lives.

This has been the case for many decades now and the ongoing divorce between cultural Christianity and our civic religion has not been pretty.

Ultimately I think the divorce is going to be bad for the country but good for believers.

Christianity was never meant to sit on the Ceasers throne.




 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.