Author Topic: FedGuv demands passwords  (Read 2897 times)

AZRedhawk44

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FedGuv demands passwords
« on: July 25, 2013, 07:35:25 PM »
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57595529-38/feds-tell-web-firms-to-turn-over-user-account-passwords/

Not just passwords, but encryption algorithms and salts too.

So much for that 5th amendment.

The article details that even with the encrypted passwords, the formula that generates them and the salts, they don't have the real password. 

However, they are able to impersonate that account on that system by using the encrypted version of the password stored in the system.
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Waitone

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2013, 09:47:32 PM »
Shocking, just shocking.

An admission that readily available security provisions work.

Next step?  Banning secure email services.
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cordex

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 10:02:01 PM »
The article details that even with the encrypted passwords, the formula that generates them and the salts, they don't have the real password. 
Rainbow tables  Per-user salting makes it harder, but they're not exactly short on computer power.

Levant

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 08:24:25 PM »
The article is not accurate in how password hashes work.  And the encryption algorithms are all either open source or public record.

Passwords are typically stored hashed, not in a two-way encrypted or plain text formats.  If you do business with any organization that can send you your password when you forget it then close your account and don't do business with them.  They are storing your password plain text

There is a difference between hashed and encrypted.  Hashing uses encryption principles to create a one-way encrypted result.  It can't be unencrypted by any password - there is no password.  The one-way encrypted value is stored and when you log in the password you provide is hashed using the same algorithm.  The hashed result is compared against the hashed value stored in the database.  If they match then you're in.  Even though creating a hashing algorithm is done with encryption techniques, this is usually referred to as creating a hash rather than encryption.  Technically it is one-way encryption.  

The traditional way to defeat a cryptologically sound hash was through a dictionary attack.  You try combinations of values until you get a hash that matches the target.  Since you can hash entire books, chapters, paragraphs, sentences, words, or randomly generated passwords, and everything in between, the possibilities to be included in the dictionary are mind-boggling.  When you see sites that limit you to 8 alphanumeric characters, though, you are on a site where your account can be cracked in minutes.  Going to 10, 16, 32, or more characters with lots of special characters allowed, increases the required dictionary size exponentially for each additional option added.  Length counts much more than complexity in dictionary attacks.  

The article is completely mistaken to compare costs of adding additional characters in the set of characters to the value of extending the length of the password.  Here's an article describing the effects of password length versus complexity.  Even using only upper case alphabet (26 characters) is more secure at 15 characters than using 79 characters (upper, lower, numbers, special) at 7 characters in length.  http://blogs.mcafee.com/mcafee-labs/password-policy-length-vs-complexity

Beyond dictionary attacks, though, are rainbow cracks, http://project-rainbowcrack.com/, using time-memory trade offs and rainbow tables.  It's a sophisticated variation on a dictionary attack that hugely shortens the time to crack a hash.  Here's a video showing a complex 8-character hash being broken in under 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBLJcBuLQLU

This is easily done by the NSA.  With cost estimates discussed in the article, imagine how short of a time it would take to break a hash if you could spend a million dollars to crack a hash.  Cracking a hash is simple for the NSA.

Salts are not typically used in hash algorithms but it is not uncommon to add a salt to the plain-text before encrypting it so that the resulting hash is not tied to a specific password.  If the salt is based on something user specific then cracking the hash of one password will not give you the the answer to other hashes in the database.

When people refer to encryption, they usually mean a two-way encryption - in other words, it can be unencrypted and the original value recovered.  This requires a key (or password) that can be shared.  There are public/private key systems or simple systems where you have the same key to the encrypted text for all users.  This is almost never used in storing passwords.  If you were to ever discover that some company stored your password this way, close your account and don't do business with them.  They may as well store your password in plain text because they have to store the encrypted text and the key to unencrypt it. If you steal one you can likely steal both.   It makes no sense for the FBI to request keys to encrypted passwords. They'll never find them stored this way.

Salts are used as part of encryption algorithms - referred to as Initialization Vector.  But the IV has to be prefixed on the encrypted result because it is required to decrypt the encrypted value.  So, for all common encryption algorithms that use salts, the salt is readily available and needn't be requested separately by the FBI.

Asking for algorithms makes the least sense of all.  No one that is seriously interested in security would write their own algorithm unless encryption is their training and background - and I'm talking Phd in Mathematics level of training.  Anyone with any knowledge in the field would choose a publicly available algorithm over a private one every day of the week.  Security in encryption comes from peer review of other real experts and not through obscurity or secrecy.
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bedlamite

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 08:39:56 PM »
TLDR version:

A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

cordex

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 09:32:44 PM »
Asking for algorithms makes the least sense of all.  No one that is seriously interested in security would write their own algorithm unless encryption is their training and background - and I'm talking Phd in Mathematics level of training.  Anyone with any knowledge in the field would choose a publicly available algorithm over a private one every day of the week.  Security in encryption comes from peer review of other real experts and not through obscurity or secrecy.
I don't think they were looking for the actual algorithm itself so much as which one was used.  If you have hashes but no idea whether it was SHA-1, MD5, salted/unsalted, etc. your job is infinitely more difficult.

Tallpine

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 10:06:55 PM »
Should just lock the account (at least temporarily) after some arbitrary number of wrong password attempts  :facepalm:

Would be a pain for the real user.  =|
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cordex

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 10:32:27 PM »
Should just lock the account (at least temporarily) after some arbitrary number of wrong password attempts  :facepalm:

Would be a pain for the real user.  =|
Right, and that prevents a remote dictionary attack, but if the opposition has the hashes and the algorithm then they can run the attack as quickly as their warehouse sized cluster can operate.

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 10:47:51 PM »
Should just lock the account (at least temporarily) after some arbitrary number of wrong password attempts  :facepalm:

Would be a pain for the real user.  =|
My credit union does this, three wrong guesses and your account gets locked until you call them.
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 10:52:52 PM »
My credit union does this, three wrong guesses and your account gets locked until you call them.

Meh. Bad security practice. I could DDOS your credit union by sending forged requests for random accounts from random IPs to lock out some, most or all accounts.

Best is increasing interval. 1 second delay for first wrong PW, 2 seconds for second, etc.  Account thawing is another good idea.
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RaspberrySurprise

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 11:00:54 PM »
Meh. Bad security practice. I could DDOS your credit union by sending forged requests for random accounts from random IPs to lock out some, most or all accounts.

Best is increasing interval. 1 second delay for first wrong PW, 2 seconds for second, etc.  Account thawing is another good idea.

Yeah it's pretty damn annoying.
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 12:47:46 AM »
Delays and locks don't count when the government has the database of password hashes offline.  All the calculations are done on their super computers and they never once log into your account with an incorrect password.

Locks and delays help if the attacker does not have the encrypted bits.
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 09:33:06 AM »
Delays and locks don't count when the government has the database of password hashes offline.  All the calculations are done on their super computers and they never once log into your account with an incorrect password.

Locks and delays help if the attacker does not have the encrypted bits.

Feds don't need any password to get data from any US company, or any company that does business in the US. They can subpoena the information, and the company has to provide the data. They only need the passwords to impersonate the user.

And most LE federal agencies do not get processing time from the NSA. The NSA doesn't usually loan out its systems.
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 11:27:26 AM »
Feds don't need any password to get data from any US company, or any company that does business in the US. They can subpoena the information, and the company has to provide the data. They only need the passwords to impersonate the user.

And most LE federal agencies do not get processing time from the NSA. The NSA doesn't usually loan out its systems.

Impersonation is what is so scary.  Since the content of your online interactions, in email, chats, or gun forums, is often used against you in court based on an assumption that what is done in your name you did, having the government impersonate you means they can easily plant evidence against you.  This is not the same as impersonation in person.  In person, those with whom the police interact can say in court that the accused is, or is not, the person they saw.

Online, it is only your password that certifies the evidence against you.  When the government has that is its the same as if they had a Mission Impossible quality rubber mask of your face and go into a liquor store and rob it in your name.  Very scary stuff.

But as for the NSA loaning out its systems, I have to disagree.  Of what use is all of the phone records in America if they identify a terrorist and that information can't be passed to law enforcement?  Of what use are all those systems if law enforcement says we think we have a terrorist, can you break this code, and the NSA says no?  Unless there are NSA SWAT teams running around in the US, the only purpose of the NSA is to work with Law Enforcement when dealing with terrorism in the US.
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2013, 01:23:40 PM »
Impersonation is what is so scary.  Since the content of your online interactions, in email, chats, or gun forums, is often used against you in court based on an assumption that what is done in your name you did, having the government impersonate you means they can easily plant evidence against you.  This is not the same as impersonation in person.  In person, those with whom the police interact can say in court that the accused is, or is not, the person they saw.

Yep. Handy part is now a sharp lawyer can claim it wasn't his client. Instead of Sum Dude, it's Sum Agency.

"My client didn't send that incriminating email. The DEA/BATFE/etc did because they got his password. If they didn't, why did they get the password instead of just copies of my client's email?"
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »
And some Supreme Court will rule, in a 5-4 decision with Chief Justice Roberts casting the deciding vote, that the government would never abuse their power of having access to every private detail of your life so it's not possible that they did it.  Guilty as charged.
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 03:02:45 PM »
And some Supreme Court will rule, in a 5-4 decision with Chief Justice Roberts casting the deciding vote, that the government would never abuse their power of having access to every private detail of your life so it's not possible that they did it.  Guilty as charged.

Possible, but unlikely to make such a sweeping decision for all cases. SCOTUS is big on killing freedoms by death of a thousand cuts. Decapitation is unlikely. They'd likely just weasel out and say it's not their place to interfere with Executive branch when it's generating fake evidence.
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erictank

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Re: FedGuv demands passwords
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 05:55:46 PM »
Possible, but unlikely to make such a sweeping decision for all cases. SCOTUS is big on killing freedoms by death of a thousand cuts. Decapitation is unlikely. They'd likely just weasel out and say it's not their place to interfere with Executive branch when it's generating fake evidence.

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