Dell may offer Linux as alternative to Windows

[Ron]

Dell Inc. (Nasdaq:DELL - news) is considering offering the Linux operating system as an alternative to Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) Windows on its personal computers, a Dell spokesman said on Tuesday.

The PC maker said it received more than 100,000 customer requests for Linux in a "suggestion box" posted on Dell's Web site less than three weeks ago.

"We are listening to what customers are saying about Linux and taking it into consideration," said Dell spokesman David Lord. "We are going forward. Let's say, 'Certainly stay tuned."'

Linux is an open-source operating system that is generally available for free and can be used to run most computers, including Dell's PCs.

Dell does not break out how much it charges for Windows when it calculates the cost of a computer system, but a basic upgrade version of the software generally retails for $99.

The only operating system that Dell currently offers on its PCs is Windows, with one exception, Lord said. It sells high-end Linux desktops designed specifically for use in oil and gas exploration, he said.

Making Linux available on other Dell PCs has been the top request since the Web site was launched on February 16, according to data posted on the site, as of Tuesday evening.

The second most popular request was that Dell offer another popular free software title, OpenOffice, which competes with Microsoft Office programs including Word, Excel and PowerPoint.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070306/tc_nm/dell_linux_dc&printer=1;_ylt=AoNZ_t8Jrd14UEO4xNLiCblU.3QA

[mtnbkr]

Five minutes after Dell starts offering Linux desktops and laptops, the zealots will bitch because they're not cheap enough or don't come with their pet distro pre-installed.  Six months later, Dell will quietly stop offering Linux pre-installed due to complaints, hostile emails, and verbal abuse at the hands of the zealots.  The faithful will accuse them of pandering to MS.  Linux zealots are only happy when they're the "oppressed minority".

Chris

[Iain]

I suspect that Chris has a point.

[Sindawe]

Five minutes after Dell starts offering Linux desktops and laptops, the zealots will bitch because they're not cheap enough or don't come with their pet distro pre-installed.  Six months later, Dell will quietly stop offering Linux pre-installed due to complaints, hostile emails, and verbal abuse at the hands of the zealots.  The faithful will accuse them of pandering to MS.  Linux zealots are only happy when they're the "oppressed minority".

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

IIRC, Dell has been down this path before then decided to drop Linux as an option.  'Round about 12-18 months ago.

[BakerMikeRomeo]

Dell may offer Linux as alternative to Windows

Who cares?

~GnSx
Note: not deriding the OP, deriding Linux + Dell.

[zahc]

Somehow I doubt the 'linux discount' will be very substantial, as I also doubt that Dell pays very much per unit to M$ for the liscense. In that case, there is no point. You can always install linux yourself (up to date, and your preference).

[JimMarch]

I guarantee you us Linux zealots won't complain about which distro.

Dell will have to pick just one - we understand that.  Probably Ubuntu (if 7.04 turns out well come April) or Suse/OpenSuse by Novell.  But it won't really matter.  The hardware compatibility (or lack thereof) issues are pretty universal across all distros, with minor exceptions.  The WiFi cards, printers, video cards and the like that work well in one distro almost always work well in all others, the real oddballs excepted.

What this means to somebody like me (who would likely re-format to my flavor of choice regardless) is that it would be a signal to the application and driver writers to get their bleep in gear because Linux IS coming.

And guys, no joke here, it's coming.

I've been trying to find "the perfect distro" for months now - and by perfect I mean one state-of-the-art enough to keep my interest yet won't break or glitch on a newbie.

In that time I've come across two "lemons" - one barely so (Ubuntu 6.10 "Edgy Eft", really no worse than WinXP) and one catastrophically Godawful (Sabayon, but that's not fair because it needs very modern video hardware, it's the official testbed for Beryl).

Ubuntu 6.06 ("Dapper Drake") was OK but a tad outdated.

OpenSuse 10.2 was rock-solid, but the package management was ugly and repositories (places where you go to add goodies) were mostly overseas and had some downtime.  Workable for somebody not into tweaking stuff a lot.

Fedora Core 6 was very, very good.  I would have loved to stick with it but...every once in a while an auto-update would do something silly and break something minor...like auto-mounting abilities for USB drives.  Not enough to hose the system, and a few minutes searching the excellent forums would sort it out, but a newbie couldn't cope.  I want to get to the point where I can support real newbies with a system that I also use daily.

Mandriva Free 2007 was OK, but not as cutting edge as FC6 and about as glitchy.  Sigh.  Next...

I've had Zenwalk 4.4.1 up for the last two days now and am very, VERY impressed.  Package management isn't quite as broad as the Red Hat/Debian families but it's not bad and it's by FAR the friendliest system for adding/removing apps I've ever seen, period.  Windows XP included.  Also THE fewest glitches of any sort on install and operation - zero so far, including perfect auto-detection of my extra-funky video (ATI Radeon 7500 mobile).  Too early to tell for sure but dayum, this may be IT - "the chosen one".  Real out-of-left-field contender, too, a friggin' -=Slackware=- fork of all things.

I intend to do a full review at a week out.

--------

Never mind the distro.  I'll tell you right now where this stuff is ALL headed: right down Microsoft's throat.

It is easier to maintain and operate a Linux desktop/hard-user box than WinXP and almost certainly Vista as well.  Linux is faster, more stable, undisturbed by malware, and all the better distros come with serious software firewalls.  Software support is speeding up FAST now that parallel development efforts between Linux and it's Mac 10.x cousin are becoming normal.

Most of the distros I've tried have been far and away better products than Windows.  Period, end of discussion.

Is it perfect?  Of course not.  A few things still glitch.  I have a PCMCIA cellular modem on the Verizon net that's a pain to get working in Linux, so I paid $200 for an external router with it's own PCMCIA slot that turns the cellphone signal into plain Ethernet and WiFi (Kyocera KR1).  Works great, let's me share the connection.

Let me repeat: I paid $200 to get out of Microsoft's clutches, and if I had to I'd pay triple that today to keep doing it if I had to.

I don't give a damn about any "Linux discount" because I've already got mine: in less aggravation, in knowing I'll never have to struggle with a botnet virus that slipped past a fully paid-up Zonealarm Pro subscription like it wasn't there, as happened to me seven months ago when I first downloaded Ubuntu.

Nobody owns my rig but me.  Not Bill Gates, not Symantec, not McAfee, not some creep half-geek botmaster nephew of a Russian mob boss, not any scumbag digital bully spewing crapware for profit.  Not now, not ever and there ain't a one of ya on Windows who can say the same with a straight face unless you're behind a professionally maintained hardware firewall.

[mtnbkr]

I guarantee you us Linux zealots won't complain about which distro.

Too late, they're already doing so.  Last night, I saw one post on Slashdot whining that they weren't using some flavor of BSD and a few others wondering why they didn't use <pet distro>. 

What this means to somebody like me (who would likely re-format to my flavor of choice regardless) is that it would be a signal to the application and driver writers to get their bleep in gear because Linux IS coming.

*They've* been saying this for 10 years.  That's how long I've been using Linux and the story is always the same.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not anti-linux.  As I said above, I've been using it in one form or another for 10 years.  I've used it on the desktop, on laptops, and as a server.  I've given folks old laptops loaded with a pre-configured and locked down version of Slackware to get them online.  As I speak, I have a Dell Poweredge (SuSE) server running Linux with Apache and Samba (print and file server duties) sitting nearby.

The *zealots* will bitch and complain and send nasty letters to Dell for a variety of perceived slights until Dell gives up.  I hope I'm wrong.  We'll see...

Chris

[mtnbkr]

BTW, thanks for the Kyocera KR1.  I have a use for something like that professionally. 

Chris

[Manedwolf]

I suspect they're hoping to double their support call income when people have to pay per minute to talk to someone in India because they can't figure out Linux.

I believe only Dell's execs are stateside, now. The entire rest of the operation is in India.

[roo_ster]

There won't be any linux discount from Dell.

Do you think Dell slaps all the 90-day-trial crapware from software vendors for nothing?  Dell gets paid to make their consumers' lives harder by installing that dreck.

If they go to linux, they won't be installing all that trash, won't be getting paid by the trash-ware vendors, and most certainly won't pass the non-savings on to us. 

But, as JM stated, we'll get a box that has known linux drivers for all the hardware.

Also, some folks will always whine.  If Dell really wants to do it up right, they ought to steal a page from the playbook of some of the linux laptop vendors.

[roo_ster]

A properly configured linux box will need much less care & feeding than any Windows box, end of story.

If you buy grandma a linux box, configure it for her as a user, she likely will soldier on with it until the hardware craps out.

[Iain]

Jim - I thought you were a big Ubuntu fan, what happened? Haven't got around to replacing the broken monitor on my ubuntu box, so haven't booted the thing up for ages, meaning that I still have 6.06 rather than 6.10, so no experience with it.

[Manedwolf]

A properly configured linux box will need much less care & feeding than any Windows box, end of story.

If you buy grandma a linux box, configure it for her as a user, she likely will soldier on with it until the hardware craps out.

Or you could just buy a Mac, which comes pre-configured and doesn't need a third party to do it for the user. Plus you don't need to find your almost-like-the-real-things software on geek-designed obfuscated places like sourceforge.

I swear, whoever designs sites like that needs to be beaten. It's the web equivalent of a kitchen junk drawer. Just TRY to find the actual "download" button.

[JimMarch]

No, I started with Ubuntu but there were too many instabilities in Edgy.

That said, Ubuntu's installer and initial set of apps/desktop (Gnome) is a GREAT way for newbies to start.  But as soon as possible they should graduate to something more professional.  Ubuntu is based off the Debian "unstable" testing branch and it shows.

BUT: they realize they blew it with Edgy and may get Feisty (7.04 due April) right.  There are strong signs so far that they realize that stability needed a hard look.  I hope they do get it right because they have a lot of potential and the gold standard on installers.

Manedwolf: Linux is all about recycling old Win-spec hardware .

[Cromlech]

Hard to use Operating Systems/GUIs and the like are the equivalent of 'survival of the fittest' or 'natural selection' for the computing world.

 

Seriously though, a MAC OS is fine if you want something for:

1. Something specialised, such as multimedia work.

2. Use by NEWBS, or for the elderly (who would be classed as newbs, if it weren't for the fact they are unused to such things, due to the generation gap, so we lay off of them).

 

[Manedwolf]

Hard to use Operating Systems/GUIs and the like are the equivalent of 'survival of the fittest' or 'natural selection' for the computing world.

 

Seriously though, a MAC OS is fine if you want something for:

1. Something specialised, such as multimedia work.

2. Use by NEWBS, or for the elderly (who would be classed as newbs, if it weren't for the fact they are unused to such things, due to the generation gap, so we lay off of them).

 

You are aware that Microsoft Office has been available for OSX for the past seven years or so, and that it's absolutely identical to the Windows version and completely cross-compatible in the files it creates?

That "multimedia only" bit hasn't applied this century. All the same productivity apps are available on both Windows and OSX, including Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Photoshop, Illustrator, and Flash. And they're identical in operation on both.

And hard-to-use operating systems are the result of poor design, period.

Would you want to buy a car that required you to fiddle under the hood for a few hours when you first purchased it before you could drive it? How about if it couldn't use gas from regular gas stations, but had to use special gas from stations where you had to process the gas yourself before putting it in the tank? And would you defend that design, or just call it poorly designed?

I really wonder at people who say that something must be better because it's more difficult to use or more obtuse and frustration-inducing. Probably the same sorts who buy big clunky Reagan-era-engine-design cars and think it's normal for it to break down every few months. 

IMO, using Linux for modern office productivity is like packing a muzzleloading pistol with shot and wadding for concealed carry.

[Cromlech]

Oh come on, you didn't think I was being completely serious did you?

Also, by the 'natural selection' comments, that wasn't anything to do with the progression of the hardware, just a joke about keeping the newbs out of the scene.

[Manedwolf]

Oh come on, you didn't think I was being completely serious did you?

Also, by the 'natural selection' comments, that wasn't anything to do with the progression of the hardware, just a joke about keeping the newbs out of the scene.

I wouldn't if I didn't actually see that sentiment FOR REAL all the time in the industry!   

And I'm very serious. There are literally hardcore geeks who think that unless a computer is difficult to use, unless they have to type two lines of like #?-!-this-@!#-that // | then  to do anything, they won't use it.

Thankfully, they also tend to mostly be unemployable. 

(The bearded, thick-glasses, suspender-wearing unix guy that sometimes shows up in Dilbert? THEY EXIST!)

[Cromlech]

Hahaha. 

I am a (reluctant) Windows user, but I don't like going through all the hoops in Linux (Wine etc) to get games and the like going. That is why I put up with all the crap from Microsoft.

Furthermore, I think we NEED the hardline PC fundamentalists/extremists, if only to counter the maddeningly annoying 'hip' Mac crowd. My best friend Steve is a lifelong MAC user, but not one of the irritating art student ones. He recognises that his Mac Mini and hs G5 based thing-u-mmy do what he wants it do, and does it very reliably, without the hassle of Windows.

Myself, I just like to tinker with things a bit more.

[Manedwolf]

Hahaha. 

I am a (reluctant) Windows user, but I don't like going through all the hoops in Linux (Wine etc) to get games and the like going. That is why I put up with all the crap from Microsoft.

Furthermore, I think we NEED the hardline PC fundamentalists/extremists, if only to counter the maddeningly annoying 'hip' Mac crowd. My best friend Steve is a lifelong MAC user, but not one of the irritating art student ones. He recognises that his Mac Mini and hs G5 based thing-u-mmy do what he wants it do, and does it very reliably, without the hassle of Windows.

Myself, I just like to tinker with things a bit more.

Yup, that's why I use a Mac. All day, every day, it pounds out solid finished products, ad layouts, videos, DVDs, documents, tradeshow booth displays, documents, papers, pictures, animations, etc. Doesn't crash, doesn't hang, doesn't get worms or viruses, and "upgrading" from a G4 Powerbook to Core Duo Macbook Pro involved connecting one cable and clicking "migrate". All my programs, settings, even wallpaper moved over, making the new one identical down to the last shortcut, providing for zero interruption in workflow.

THAT, in 2007, is what I expect of a workhorse computer. The Core Duo macs are, as far as doing business apps and graphics work, the equivalent of a heavy, solidly built work truck with as much torque as you need under the hood. No hesitation, no frustration, they just plow through your workload as you expect them to.

I like that.

[mtnbkr]

I wouldn't if I didn't actually see that sentiment FOR REAL all the time in the industry!

Which industry would that be?

Thankfully, they also tend to mostly be unemployable.

By whom?  They exist in most companies, they're just not allowed to interact with customers.

I had users at one company who used Linux on their laptops and VMWare to run Windows 95/98 so they'd still have the Windows apps when they couldn't find Linux analogues.  Running Linux on their laptops made working with the various big Unix boxes easier for them.  They could run remote X apps remotely with local display.  They had the option of using Hummingbird's Exceed application to do the same thing under Windows, but this was more efficient for them.

BTW, "two lines of like #?-!-this-@!#-that // |" can be much faster and more efficient than clicking through icons and screens.  When the option is available, I prefer the command line myself for that very reason.  Not because it make me l33t but because it makes me productive.

Linux won't fail because it has any major flaws, it'll fail because the Linux "community" will want it to fail.  While they claim they want software freedom (as in speech), what they really want is free software (as in beer).  That's why free (beer) software like OpenOffice and Gimp thrive, but commercial software companies such as Lodi (Quake 3 and Civ 2 or 3) failed.  I bought both titles offered by Lodi at the time, but lots of the "faithful" were pirating them left and right, bitching because the Lodi had the gall to charge for them.

Linux will remain a bit player on the desktop until the socialists in the community are purged or find something else to occupy their time.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

He recognises that his Mac Mini and hs G5 based thing-u-mmy do what he wants it do, and does it very reliably, without the hassle of Windows.

What hassle is that?

My 3yo PC runs Win2k, has never crashed and hasn't required any special effort on my part to keep it running.  I run an antivirus application that scans it nightly and automatically updates itself.  I only hear from it if it finds a virus (haven't yet though).  I run a software firewall (Zonealarm).  Every once in a while, I run Adaware.  That's it.  I don't load a bunch of crap applications, nor do I open each and every email I receive via Outlook.  Between me and the Internet is a Netgear wireless router with it's built in firewall.  If people used safe computing practices as much as they (claim) to use safe sex practices, the average PC would be cleaner.

The last time I had a virus was in college (13 years ago) because another user didn't scan their floppy drive before using it in a lab machine.

Linux was a hassle for other reasons.  No viruses to speak of, but adding hardware or software was more labor intensive than under Windows.  I'm sure it's easier today, but I only use Linux as a server OS these days.  My current box is headless and only accessible via SSH, HTTP, and Samba (network file/print). 

Eventually, I'll be giving the Mac a try out of curiosity, not because I can't do what I need to do with Windows.

Chris

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

Cromlech:

Myself, I just like to tinker with things a bit more.

OS X's core is UNIX.  Tinker your butt off my friend.

[Gewehr98]

A couple things to keep in mind here.

Linux is still not "everyman's" OS.  You need a geek like Jim (not meant in a derogatory way) to set it up for Granny, and he'll have to tweak and load whatever he feels is best for Granny's specific purposes.  I can walk into a computer store like CompUSA or Best Buy, and buy a machine right now with XP or Vista ready to run. (Or a Mac, but their elitism drives me nuts) Linux is so burdened by all the different varieties out there, it'll keep all the geeks and tweakers happy, but standardizing on one flavor for shipping to "everyman"?  It'll take a herculean effort on the part of Dell, and I don't know if they'll get the return on investment they're looking for.

They tried the "everyman" pre-packaged version of Linux a while ago, remember Lindows? It came pretty darned close. WalMart was selling computer packages with that OS pre-loaded until legal hassles from Redmond put a stop to it. Lindows eventually renamed themselves Linspire, but the budget out-of-the-box computer systems running a version of Linux stopped.

I just finished watching John C. Dvorak's Cranky Geeks segment with Adam Curry as guest.  One of the first topics of discussion was Dell's announcement about shipping with Linux.  Adam made a very valid point - the average Linux geek won't care about what version of Linux is shipped with his Dell box.  He'll likely format it and install his own favorite flavor.  The big benefit to the Linux community with respect to Dell's announcement is that they now know the boxes will be Linux-compatible out the door. 

 http://www.crankygeeks.com/2007/03/cranky_geeks_episode_54_net_ne.html

I'm not a Linux hater.  I've been playing with it for about 8 years now, starting with Mandrake 6.1 and going from there.  I've got an older IBM dual P-II Intellistation sitting in the laundry room (next to the Linksys WRT-54G router, Motorola VT-1000 Vonage VoiP box, D-Link DI-102 packet optimizer, Charter cable modem, and APC 800RT UPS) playing the role of NAS/fileserver, running Debian 3.1.  It'll eventually host my website/blog once I feel comfortable with it, and get the hang of DNS through floating IP cable modem accounts.  (I don't want to pay Charter the extra $$$$ for a fixed-IP address)

In the corner of my office is a government-surplus Sun SPARC Ultra 5 workstation.  It's my next project to get running under Linux.  It will get the Corel graphics suite, then run my stepson's 36" vinyl plotter and Phaser 780 tabloid color laser, as part of his cottage graphics business.  I may even port my Quark Express 7.0 over to it under WINE if he needs it. Again, not a take-out-of-the-box and email the grandkids installation, but I would dearly love to see that day happen. 

And I do somewhat resent folks marching (no pun intended) in here and stating that Windows is so buggy and infection prone.  I ain't Granny, but this machine I'm thwacking the keys on now is an IBM Intellistation M-Pro, dual Xeon 2.4, running XP Pro. It's one of the same 150 machines that WETA Digital did the "Lord of the Rings" graphic effects on, and have just come back in off of corporate lease for pennies on the dollar.  I run Norton Corporate Edition (free from my USAF days by agreement with Norton), SuperAdBlocker, and use the firewall in my Linksys router.  I've been totally infection free, and have yet to experience a BSOD.  I can also state the same for the previous Dell Precision 420 I ran, as well as the previous IBM Intellistation M-Pro dual P-II 450 running Windows 2000 Professional (now in the laundry room), and the Tyan dual P-II 300 before that, running Windows NT 4.0.  Some of us folks sucking the Redmond Kool-Aid actually pay attention to what we're doing, as Chris alluded to above.