Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Fly320s on February 29, 2016, 03:32:18 PM
-
The time is good right now. Nearly every airline is hiring and most of the smaller carriers are having difficulty hiring qualified pilots.
Republic Airlines, a regional carrier for Delta, American, and United, filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection because they were so short on pilots that they had to cancel hundreds of flights and park dozens of aircraft. Republic has been one of the better regional airlines to work for the last many years.
Great Lakes, a crappy bottom feeder regional, has removed seats from their aircraft so they can hire lower time pilots to fly as First Officers. They fly Beech 1900s that have 19 seats. Current regulations require FOs to have 1500 hours and a ATP license to fly that plane, but with only 9 seats installed, a pilot only needs a Commercial license, acquired at 250 hours, to fly as a FO.
Cape Air, which flies 8 seat Cessna 402s in Boston and elsewhere, is actually hiring First Officers now just so those pilots will be able to build flight hours quickly and become Captains quickly. Typically, those 402s are flown single-pilot; no second pilot is required.
Four to six years from now will see hundreds to thousands of airline pilots retire.
And if all that wasn't enough, it seems like pilots are dropping like flies due to medical issues. We had two pilots taken away by ambulance just this weekend while I was in recurrent training. Crazy stuff.
-
As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.
Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.
-
I'd love to get into it professionally, but I've reached a point in my career where the loss in earnings between what I make now and what even the most lucrative professions start at is prohibitive. Too bad, it'd be a lot of fun.
-
As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.
To be fair, there's been a few changes over the years. It's just plain harder to become a pilot today. They used to not require so many hours. The physical requirements were a bit easier. You had a much larger military spitting out qualified pilots.
Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.
As this can be blamed on the businesses running high on the hog and not keeping up their apprenticeship and training programs, I can't say I'm all that sympathetic for them.
Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?
The shortage can probably be largely attributed to that. Flight training is expensive, and people who can pass it have better options today. You simply don't have the population of ex-military pilots compared with expansions on the civil side.
-
I'm at an age it would take me too long to get anywhere in the profession for it to pay off.
Is there a mandatory retirement age with some if not all of the major airlines, if not FAA mandated?
-
To be fair, there's been a few changes over the years. It's just plain harder to become a pilot today. They used to not require so many hours. The physical requirements were a bit easier. You had a much larger military spitting out qualified pilots.
As this can be blamed on the businesses running high on the hog and not keeping up their apprenticeship and training programs, I can't say I'm all that sympathetic for them.
Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?
The shortage can probably be largely attributed to that. Flight training is expensive, and people who can pass it have better options today. You simply don't have the population of ex-military pilots compared with expansions on the civil side.
Son of a woman here at work went to work for a doctor here in Oklahoma flying for him and was making more money than classmates that went to work for the airlines. He is now moved to another company and still making more money than most if not all of his contemporizes.
-
So if we fit the aircraft out with drone packages, can we have one captain running 10-20 flights, and put only a Flight Engineer in the cockpit just in case? I mean, really, his only truly critical flying skill would be finding the closest suitable airport and landing safely there when something goes wrong with the control link. Ideally, the FE wouldn't even be graded on hours, but x number of touch-and-go and y number of true full stop landings, demonstration of nav skills and ability to perform basic in-flight diagnostics, repairs and contingency workarounds. (Mostly reset tripped breakers, manually deploy landing gear if needed, etc.)
Actually, the more I think about it, the more feasible that sounds for the twin-prop jobs that are a heck of a lot easier to land in sims at least. I know I found it a lot easier to land a real C172 than any sim mostly because I could feel ground effect and had peripheral vision tracking the runway right under the plane and objects being passed for a true VFR gauge of speed, altitude, attitude, etc. to literally reality check the timing of the approach and flare. I don't see any way that could be as easy in something with only relatively small, mostly, front-facing, high-placed windows...especially when the pilot is still way the heck up in the air as the main gear touches down.
-
So if we fit the aircraft out with drone packages, can we have one captain running 10-20 flights, and put only a Flight Engineer in the cockpit just in case? I mean, really, his only truly critical flying skill would be finding the closest suitable airport and landing safely there when something goes wrong with the control link. Ideally, the FE wouldn't even be graded on hours, but x number of touch-and-go and y number of true full stop landings, demonstration of nav skills and ability to perform basic in-flight diagnostics, repairs and contingency workarounds. (Mostly reset tripped breakers, manually deploy landing gear if needed, etc.)
Actually, the more I think about it, the more feasible that sounds for the twin-prop jobs that are a heck of a lot easier to land in sims at least. I know I found it a lot easier to land a real C172 than any sim mostly because I could feel ground effect and had peripheral vision tracking the runway right under the plane and objects being passed for a true VFR gauge of speed, altitude, attitude, etc. to literally reality check the timing of the approach and flare. I don't see any way that could be as easy in something with only relatively small, mostly, front-facing, high-placed windows...especially when the pilot is still way the heck up in the air as the main gear touches down.
We're decades from commercial aviation being automated. Even if someone came up with a completely feasible package mixing automated commercial flight with ATC tomorrow, it'd take decades for the FAA to actually study and approve it.
-
We're decades from commercial aviation being automated. Even if someone came up with a completely feasible package mixing automated commercial flight with ATC tomorrow, it'd take decades for the FAA to actually study and approve it.
Not to mention convincing passengers to fly on a plane captained by somebody with 'no skin in the game'. Though I'm not sure how much of a factor that would be - make the drone plane $5 cheaper for the flight and you'd have takers.
Especially if self driving cars have come out and you have a generation that grew up on them. If little Johnny grew up having the family car pick him up after school and take him home before leaving to pick up mom/dad, he's probably not going to have a beef with an automated plane.
-
Not to mention convincing passengers to fly on a plane captained by somebody with 'no skin in the game'.
Hence the real live guy in the cockpit with the skills and authority to take over and land the plane if need be. His butt is on the line and his eyes are directly on the actual conditions, which makes for an interesting division of authority, but workable.
-
Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?
It was true until recently. Starting regional pay is pushing $50k, according to the grapevine. I haven't verified that.
-
I'm at an age it would take me too long to get anywhere in the profession for it to pay off.
Is there a mandatory retirement age with some if not all of the major airlines, if not FAA mandated?
FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65. FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55. Jamisjockey knows.
-
Hence the real live guy in the cockpit with the skills and authority to take over and land the plane if need be. His butt is on the line and his eyes are directly on the actual conditions, which makes for an interesting division of authority, but workable.
The old joke is that some day automated cockpits will have one pilot and one dog. The pilot's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything.
-
FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65. FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55. Jamisjockey knows.
Just saw that it is 56.
-
As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.
Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.
No problem. Marco will just sign an executive order authorizing more H1B visas.
-
It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up. They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.
The Army school I'm in right now qualifies you for, among other things, a 500GT Masters Merchant Mariner Credential. We've had MSC, and three large shipping company recruiters come in and talk to the class about getting out of the Army and going to sea with them, or what the Active guys can do after their 20 years. No one wants to go to sea, and while you can pick up third worlders for Able Seaman and/or Wipers, it's very hard for them to make the jump to officer. Subsequently it's become very hard to find enough Officers to run the ships that move stuff around.
Much like I expect airline ticket costs will continue to ratchet up as less people take the jobs needed to fly the planes, EVERYTHING will get more expensive when you have to pay the people that move it twice as much. I don't know what Boom's making, but I know that my cost for side work fixing my friends cars is up to $80/hr + parts. Less then that and it's not worth me wasting a weekend. That's still like half what a dealer charges. I had ONE friend of a friend cry about it, and as I showed him the door I mentioned he was welcome to buy $20k worth of tools and spend 15 years learning about engines and fix it his damn self.
Mike Rowe is right, we are going to be screwed, or inundated with illegals, if we don't start teaching American kids how to work.
-
It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up. They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.
Interestingly, probably 80% of the richest people I've known over the years got there by learning a trade and then investing well - either smart real estate, stocks, or starting and selling businesses in the trade they knew. Some of them went to college after they started on their fortune, to learn to manage it better, but several still didn't go beyond HS or 1-2 years of college taking mostly business classes.
-
It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up. They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.
The Army school I'm in right now qualifies you for, among other things, a 500GT Masters Merchant Mariner Credential. We've had MSC, and three large shipping company recruiters come in and talk to the class about getting out of the Army and going to sea with them, or what the Active guys can do after their 20 years. No one wants to go to sea, and while you can pick up third worlders for Able Seaman and/or Wipers, it's very hard for them to make the jump to officer. Subsequently it's become very hard to find enough Officers to run the ships that move stuff around.
Much like I expect airline ticket costs will continue to ratchet up as less people take the jobs needed to fly the planes, EVERYTHING will get more expensive when you have to pay the people that move it twice as much. I don't know what Boom's making, but I know that my cost for side work fixing my friends cars is up to $80/hr + parts. Less then that and it's not worth me wasting a weekend. That's still like half what a dealer charges. I had ONE friend of a friend cry about it, and as I showed him the door I mentioned he was welcome to buy $20k worth of tools and spend 15 years learning about engines and fix it his damn self.
Mike Rowe is right, we are going to be screwed, or inundated with illegals, if we don't start teaching American kids how to work.
Hell, if you've got any tech acumen, you can quit college and be working in entry-level IT making almost double what starting ATP with a regional, and sleep in your own bed every night. Considering the parade of weirdos we've been interviewing just as temps/contractors that look like they're extras from an Adams Family movie, there's plenty of the $20/hr on up jobs going unfilled. If your skill level is lower, but your somewhat fashionable, with good soft skills, you'll beat out a much more experienced freak.
Assuming pilot time limits etc. equal a 2080 work hours/year... that's just a shade over $10/hr. =|
And if it's a good market with decent pay, you'll be making closer to what a pilot working with one of the national major airlines. There's simply no way the economics of this job will work out, unless you love flying that much.
-
$50k is just a tic over $24/hr.
-
$50k is just a tic over $24/hr.
Based on a 40 hour work week?
Pilots are limited to 1,000 hours of flight time per year and they get paid by the flight hour. So, that equals $50/hour if they work 1,000 flight hours. In reality we fly fewer hours, but are at work a few more hours than we actually fly. I fly closer to 800 hours but I'll get paid closer to 900. I typically work 10 hours to get paid 8.
Anyway, the per hour breakdown isn't a good comparison because it varies so much. But the overall schedule is good. For instance, in March, I work 12 days and get paid 84.5 hours. A new regional pilot will work about the same hours, but do it over 16 to 18 days. Seniority matters. =D
-
Interesting stuff... But I think I'll keep aviation as a hobby
although I do plan to work towards my A&P as an "exit strategy" from the IT world someday
-
FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65. FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55. Jamisjockey knows.
56
-
If your skill level is lower, but your somewhat fashionable, with good soft skills, you'll beat out a much more experienced freak.
I can vouch for this. A $50 investment at the barbershop and Goodwill pays huge dividends when you're looking for decent jobs. From the other side of the desk, I've bounced plenty of resumes back to HR as "don't bother" when the candidates showed up for a tech job interview looking like they were on the way to a heavy metal concert.
-
If the starting pay is really 50k that's a huge change it was half that a few years ago.
-
If the starting pay is really 50k that's a huge change it was half that a few years ago.
Maybe it's my libertarian ideals talking, but I don't really give a hoot. Fact is, flying is a highly skilled position that requires a lot of certification. I would have a hard time becoming a pilot(my eyes suck, for one).
As Fly mentions, there's some shenanigans with how pilot pay is calculated than what normal people are used to with hourly pay. Indeed, as he mentions, he can get more flight hours(longer flights, presumably), than a newer pilot that's going to be used more for short hops and weird schedules that make him work more hours for the same number of paid hours.
At one point there was an excess of pilots, allowing the regionals to pay crap because the goal wasn't to work for a regional, it was to collect the flight hours necessary to move up to the actual airlines.
But with fewer military pilots out there, and ever increasing requirements to become a new trained pilot rated to take passengers, there is no longer a glut. Presumably students will eventually notice this and eventually start signing up to flight schools in increasing numbers, because the starting pay no longer requires living in mom's basement for half a decade before you get the 'good job' and start earning actual pay.
I'd argue that it's not that students aren't willing to work, much less 'want' to work at starbucks. It's just that, well, which would you do: Work at starbucks for $10/hour+tips, or spend even more money to get a pilot's license and earn $20k/year and no tips? A good starbucks coffee maker who rakes in the tips can earn over $40k/year.
-
Yes, old people who blame the youngsters for not having a work ethic often fail to take into account that the market forces are different now than they were 20 or 40 years ago. And companies are in this denial too. They are unprepared for motivated individuals who no longer simply show up and do the job in a loyal fashion, because they have caught on that it is not the optimal strategy and won't get them anywhere. Even for "knowledge workers", its just as likely that their job will be outsourced after ten years than it is that ten years on the job will make them a candidate for promotion. Then companies complain they cant find qualified workers, while young people avoid comitting to the field because the conditions are crap. Companies could increase pay and improve working conditions by not running thier employees so lean, but they say employees arent worth paying to retain or develop because they arent loyal. It's a chicken-egg spiral.
Go to to any industrial area and compare it to what it looked like decades ago. Compare true wages to what they were; compare cost of living; compare retirement prospects, compare education requirements, compare cost of that education. There is no single thing to point the finger at, but the point is you can't always blame individuals for playing their cards how they see fit. Or put another way, people didn't get certifications and stick to careers "back then" because they were harder working. They did it because they assessed the value proposition and decided it paid off. I personally think the single largest shift is the labor bubble from women in the workplace, and the resulting cost of living increases from those dual-income families bidding up prices of goods. Second to that is the education bubble, both costs AND requirements going up, and the related minimum wage, healthcare, and other government tariffs on W-2 labor increasing entry barriers for laborers, deliberately or accidentally attempting to prop up those falling labor prices.
Or, $50,000/year is still crap! This is what we pay pilots? You gotta be kidding me.
-
I'd argue that it's not that students aren't willing to work, much less 'want' to work at starbucks. It's just that, well, which would you do: Work at starbucks for $10/hour+tips, or spend even more money to get a pilot's license and earn $20k/year and no tips? A good starbucks coffee maker who rakes in the tips can earn over $40k/year.
Yeah, and the boobs of someone earning that much in tips might get in the way of handling the yoke anyway.
-
I'd argue that it's not that students aren't willing to work, much less 'want' to work at starbucks. It's just that, well, which would you do: Work at starbucks for $10/hour+tips, or spend even more money to get a pilot's license and earn $20k/year and no tips? A good starbucks coffee maker who rakes in the tips can earn over $40k/year.
So put a tip jar in the plane. I've been through a couple of landings I'd have dropped in a few bucks for.
-
Friend of mine put himself through school and paid for the ratings necessary to fly a twin prop charter. After the school bill payments he was barely keeping soul and body together. He tried to get on with a regional airline, but had to have a certain number of ours in a certain rating, and he was right on the line but didn't get in after a year or so of flying charters. Luckily he got a gig with Liberty U instructing but that still doesn't pay much.
-
Yes, old people who blame the youngsters for not having a work ethic often fail to take into account that the market forces are different now than they were 20 or 40 years ago. And companies are in this denial too.
Heck, this was the deal when I went to HS back in the late 1980s.
My dad, in the late 1950s & early 1960s worked construction in the summer and paid for his private university education and had plenty of spending money (mom & pop provided room & board). He was a member of two unions while doing do. When he got hs double major in business admin & econ, he took a pay cut to work in the corporate world.
I followed my dad's advice and busted my hump (landscaping, tree removal, irrigation, etc.), saving almost all my dough throughout HS & college. Could not come near to paying for what my dad paid for.
...the resulting cost of living increases from those dual-income families bidding up prices of goods...
Another effect is that opening up the workforce to women drove up the supply in labor, driving the clearinghouse price (wages/salary) down. Good for businesses, bad for families.
-
^^^I continue to thank my lucky stars that I was able to work my way through undergrad, grad and professional school on a pay as you go basis and incurred no educational debt. This was back in the early and mid-80's. My kids worked but could not come near to covering the cost, so loans, scholarships and the Bank of the Parents did the rest. It is indeed a different time.
-
So put a tip jar in the plane. I've been through a couple of landings I'd have dropped in a few bucks for.
I sense misaligned incentives.
-
Or, $50,000/year is still crap! This is what we pay pilots? You gotta be kidding me.
Or, that is starting pay at one regional airline that is hurting for pilots. That pay rate is much higher than standard. First year pay is usually pretty low, but increases quickly in the second year and upon upgrading to captain.
The pay rates have always been low for entry level flying jobs because there are many more qualified pilots than job openings. These days, that ratio has basically reversed.
The major airlines still can be picky. For example, my company received 3,000 applications during the last hiring window. They interviewed 800 and hired 200.
-
To be fair, there's been a few changes over the years. It's just plain harder to become a pilot today. They used to not require so many hours. The physical requirements were a bit easier. You had a much larger military spitting out qualified pilots.
As this can be blamed on the businesses running high on the hog and not keeping up their apprenticeship and training programs, I can't say I'm all that sympathetic for them.
Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?
The shortage can probably be largely attributed to that. Flight training is expensive, and people who can pass it have better options today. You simply don't have the population of ex-military pilots compared with expansions on the civil side.
This. It's harder to become a pilot. Unless military, it's very hard to go to flight school and rack up enough hours to qualify for an ATP. Minimum of 1,500 hours of total flight time, 500 hours of cross-country flight time, 100 hours of night time (or 75 hours with a minimum of 45 night landings) and 75 hours of instrument time (25 of which can be in a simulator) in order to qualify for the ATP. For the captain's seat, they also need to accumulate 1,000 hours as copilots with ATP. If you fail the medical at any point, all of that is down the toilet but any school costs remain. Previously, entry level positions paid very very low.
As much as it's fun to bag on "Kids these days!", I looked into the pilot thing myself. It just wasn't worth it except as a hobby or passion. The high end is very good pay. But it's a very very long road to get there. IT paid better, with better job security and significantly more opportunities. Airlines have always offered some kind of compensation thing for school costs, but mostly wanted former military.
Essentially this is a failure to have a good progression path. Being able to realistically get folks in the door and moved along a career in an orderly path. Discontinuity along that path means the folks with heads on their shoulders see those pitfalls and don't go into the field. Or cause people in that field to get out. I know plenty of IT people looking to get out of the field because of the stress and long hours involved. The pay is good, for values of good, but not staggering. Wages across the board have not been keeping pace with inflation. The solution to pretty much any labor shortage is always pretty simple. Either have a good training program and a logical progression path (ie grow your own talent) or pay more.
Guarantee rather than grow their own talent or pay substantially more, the answer will be higher H1B visa and similar programs.
-
Guarantee rather than grow their own talent or pay substantially more, the answer will be higher H1B visa and similar programs.
Flipping Apu with his cert from Bombay Flight in a Curry School.
-
Friend of mine put himself through school and paid for the ratings necessary to fly a twin prop charter.
For nearly any job, you will find a few rare individuals that just love the job so much that they don't care about the pay. Flying, making coffee, programming, teaching, you could probably even find a few garbage workers willing to clean up just for the access to the scrap and stuff.
The problem is, most people aren't that dedicated. So they have to be incentivized, lured in. It's why a number of office jobs, despite requiring more education, actually paid less than, say, garbage man.
Flying is one of those jobs where the dedicated at least used to be nearly enough for supply. People like it, yes, but it has a huge entry barrier. Same with jobs that require a STEM degree. So to get people over that hump, you have to treat them better.Or, $50,000/year is still crap! This is what we pay pilots? You gotta be kidding me.
$50k/year is no longer crap, but the young people can still look at the history and see the pay as low as $24k as recently as 2013. Plus, consider that it takes time to get pilots qualified at the various levels. Consider this: To be a commercial airline pilot requires 1500 hours of flight experience. Getting a commercial license can be 'fast tracked', but it's my understanding that it being a 4 year degree is common. You're restricted to 1k hours/year.
In short, the 'pipeline' to create an airline pilot is approximately 5-6 years. But wait! You need 1k hours as a first officer before you can be a captain. So add another 2 years. You're now looking at a reasonable minimum of 8 years from graduating high school to being a flight captain for a passenger airline. Source. (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/07/15604.html/)
-
Did you interpret my surprise as an indicator that I think 50,000 is high pay? I was expression astonishment that someone could be a pilot of any sort and make so little. Heck, you can make more driving truck. Am I wrong?
Clearly I am spoiled since I think I am underpaid at 90k. Now, 90k is good money for even unpleasant work, but I'm one of those aforementioned "enthusiasts"...even 90k is not compelling enough for someone to target their career into the semiconductor engineering field and hope there is still a domestic semiconductor industry that needs entry level engineers in 10 years when they get out of grad school. People only end up in the industry accidentally. Then again the industry is shrinking so they may have plenty of engineers. If I ever hear a company make a peep about a shortage of new semiconductor engineers I'm going to put them in the clueless bucket with the airlines.
-
Did you interpret my surprise as an indicator that I think 50,000 is high pay? I was expression astonishment that someone could be a pilot of any sort and make so little. Heck, you can make more driving truck. Am I wrong?
Oh, sorry, no, my point was that $50k as starting pay is a good start to get more pilots into the pipeline, compared to what it was earlier, but that the pipeline is still freaking long, so it takes time from the increased pay until you start getting more pilots.
This is one of the reasons why the military is often willing to kick out experienced personnel, retire people early, while still recruiting new people - they're trying to avoid such a glut.
even 90k is not compelling enough for someone to target their career into the semiconductor engineering field and hope there is still a domestic semiconductor industry that needs entry level engineers in 10 years when they get out of grad school. People only end up in the industry accidentally. Then again the industry is shrinking so they may have plenty of engineers. If I ever hear a company make a peep about a shortage of new semiconductor engineers I'm going to put them in the clueless bucket with the airlines.
As you say, it's shrinking, people end up in it 'accidentally'. Plus, with it shrinking, it's probably shrinking more from retirements and such. You end up with an extremely skilled workforce, but one that's incredibly hard to replace.
-
Had to revive the thread to share a relevant experience.
I just interviewed at a raw materials manufacturing plant in BFE, NC. I declined the offer because while it was probably sky-high for BFE, NC, it was less than I make now, plus the commute would be murder.
Anyway, the plant has a small staff, and almost everyone there has worked there 20-30 years. The chief engineer and the plant manager have both worked there over 30 years and want to retire soon. But there is nobody to take their place; no junior engineers or anything (because that would be staffing inefficiency and redundancy!). So they have a personnel crisis of the "mature workforce" variety.
They understand the pickle they are in. The HR manager said they considered hiring somebody fresh out of college, but they know it would take 4+ years, bare minimum, for them to be ready to be a chief engineer, and that's IF they "worked out" and didn't decide engineering was too hard for them, didn't turn out to be stupid or a slacker, etc. etc., and they need a replacement in more like 2 years, and have apparently been looking for a while.
So here I walk in with a degree in Materials Science, past experience with ceramics manufacturing, 6 years of strong accomplishments in lean manufacturing, I live within driving distance of BFE, NC, mid-career looking for growth, aced the interviews, "best candidate they have interviewed so far", and they offer me 5% less than what I told them up front that I make now. Sure, the prospect (but not promise!) of more-or-less automatically becoming the plant manager is attractive, vs. my current dead-end job, but I can't take a 5% paycut plus switch from an 8-minute commute to a 1-hour commute.
I don't think they are going to get out of their crisis until they realize they aren't in a buyer's market right now. When you need a specific type of skillset, in a limited geographic region, and you need it fast, it's not really a buyer's market for you. So I wish them luck.
I don't envy the folks at the plant, but I also mock the business-school upper manager that probably got bonuses for "leaning out" the workforce and has probably moved to another company by now.
-
Interesting stuff... But I think I'll keep aviation as a hobby
although I do plan to work towards my A&P as an "exit strategy" from the IT world someday
Why? Hop into a world of contract jobs, low pay for the experience, and relocating for work. Three lucrative places for aviation work. Overseas where it is hot and sandy, on a government contract working for Dyncorp or similar contractor, or working as a union stiff for a major carrier. The only aviation job I have seriously thought about is moving to Charleston to work for Boeing. Locally there are some aviation jobs, I build food packaging equipment because the pay, management, and stability is better.
-
Latest word on the street is that some regional carriers are paying off college loans for new-hires.
-
Got a cousin who pilots for Delta...ex Navy airdale. He likes the life, and honsetly he likes being away from home a few days a wee week. Think he's making somewhere in the six figures.
Got friend who flies for FedEx. Another ex Navy airdale. Doesn't get paid as much, but works a schedule that keeps him home more. Still makes enough to put a Rolex on his rich and a beater Ferrari in his pole barn that he is restoring.
Thing is, both used the military to cover training and experience. Both also got out after around 10-12 years in the Navy, so plenty young enough to have long flying careers in the private sector.
-
Commercial airline pilot / fright engineer pay seems to vary a lot . . . I'd guess it's experienced jumbo jet pilots on international routes that are at the top of the scale.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Airline_Pilot%2c_Copilot%2c_or_Flight_Engineer/Salary (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Airline_Pilot%2c_Copilot%2c_or_Flight_Engineer/Salary)
-
Commercial airline pilot / fright engineer pay seems to vary a lot . . . I'd guess it's experienced jumbo jet pilots on international routes that are at the top of the scale.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Airline_Pilot%2c_Copilot%2c_or_Flight_Engineer/Salary (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Airline_Pilot%2c_Copilot%2c_or_Flight_Engineer/Salary)
Sure, if you look at entry level regional airline all the way to senior widebody captain at AmeriDeltaNited. For a given position on a given aircraft, the pay is similar across all US airlines.
-
Latest word on the street is that some regional carriers are paying off college loans for new-hires.
Except for Riddle grads....everyone hates those aholes.
-
fright engineer
I am not sure why that is even a job that is included anymore. A few cargo carriers still fly 3 man cockpits but even those are getting scarce. And then the practice of putting a 3rd pilot in that position was always popular. I do know of a P3 Flight Engineer who busted his hump and did a lot of things right who got hired on by Kalitta as a 747 FE. He built up flight time on his own and the company moved him up into the co-pilot seat so at least his job is a little more stable now.
If I were to do it all over again I would have gotten my commercial ticket for multi-engine turboprop FE while on active duty and used the flying clubs to build flight time so I would have had a 1/10,000 chance of continuing to fly into retirement.
bob
-
Except for Riddle grads....everyone hates those aholes.
:lol:
-
fright engineer
FE is damn near non existent these days. The old jets that required it have long since retired from passenger service and are now being retired from freight service.
-
Except for Riddle grads....everyone hates those aholes.
Too true.
-
Except for Riddle grads....everyone hates those aholes.
Why is that, out of curiosity?
-
Why is that, out of curiosity?
Broad brush painting here:
Arrogant, rich, snobby punks who think their *expletive deleted*it donesn't stink because they paid twice as much for their flight time as anyone else.
Really, very few are like that, but they are easy targets, just like lawyers.