Tacti-twos

[AZRedhawk44]

Guys (and gals), I'm looking for reviews and input on a .22 carbine trainer.

My candidate platforms are

#1 - Sig 522.
#2 - CMMG AR-15 .22 upper
#3 - S&W M&P 15-22
#4 - KelTec SU-22



My thoughts so far, and where I'd like some APS guidance/referral help with....

#1 - Everyone seems to say the Sig 522 is teh awesome.  Extraordinarily reliable.  Runs great on cheapo Fed bulk pack.  Reliable.  Did I mention reliable?  Controls are AR-ish, but not fully AR compatible.  But they make a good trainer for the 556 rifle that Sig offers.  I found one in town for $399 yesterday.  I plan on building an AR/M4 later this year but if I find I like the manual of arms deviation it could sway me to buy a Sig556 instead of building an M4.  Sig556 is a bit more expensive than an M4 though.

#2 - I found a CMMG .22 upper for $365 online.  I can use my current lower, and eventually scrounge up a new lower to mate it with permanently, but that's an added cost.  I don't like the "upper swap" game.  I think a rifle should be a rifle, and I don't have any plans of having naked uppers lying around, so a lower WILL be a hidden cost in that $365 price tag later on.  It'll drive me nuts otherwise.  No knowledge on reliability reviews.  Identical manual of arms to my AR, and future M4 I'll be building later this year.

#3 - It's made of plastic.  Even the optics rail of the upper receiver.  That irks me.  The gun is VERY capable of being flexed from sling or bipod tension and sending groups way off from a rested zero.  Seen YouTube vids of this.  Heat has been reported to change zero, even for light recreational use.  And I've never seen one complete an Appleseed without a reliability problem.

#4 - Never seen one.  Reliability seems reported on par with the Sig522.  AR-ish, but not quite an AR.  VERY light.  Bordering on too light for a proper AR trainer.  MSRP is $400, which makes street retail probably $325-$350 range.  Tempting.


Right now I'm leaning HEAVILY towards a CMMG upper, with straying thoughts towards the Sig 522.

What says APS?

[Fly320s]

I would choose them in this order:

#2  Best overall choice for a .22 M4 trainer.  By adding an AR lower, you can have a duplicate of your "real" rifle.
#3  I have heard only good reports on this rifle.  As for the plastic flexing under sling tension, there should not be any sling tension used to shoot that rifle. It is a trainer for an M4, not a DMR or long-range AR.  One doesn't need to use sling tension for short distances and CQB training.
#4  It doesn't really fit the bill of an AR training rifle, but it is cheap and handy.
#1  The Sig is heavy, bulky, and a bit unwieldy. The ergonomics are not as good as an AR. The aftermarket parts selection is minimal. It does not replicate your AR at all.

#5  Or really #1 on my list, a drop-in .22 bolt group. There are several good ones on the market. The overall accuracy won't be as good as a proper .22 barrel, but for training purposes inside of 50 yards, it will be good enough.

[geronimotwo]

cabela's is having a sale on this

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Rimfire-Rifles/Semiautomatic%7C/pc/104792580/c/105530580/sc/104800680/Colt174-M4-Ops-22-LR-Semiautomatic-Tactical-Rimfire-Rifle/710003.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-rimfire-rifles-semiautomatic%2F_%2FN-1102344%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104800680%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104792580%253Bcat105530580&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat105530580%3Bcat104800680

[Boomhauer]

cabela's is having a sale on this

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Rimfire-Rifles/Semiautomatic%7C/pc/104792580/c/105530580/sc/104800680/Colt174-M4-Ops-22-LR-Semiautomatic-Tactical-Rimfire-Rifle/710003.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-rimfire-rifles-semiautomatic%2F_%2FN-1102344%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104800680%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104792580%253Bcat105530580&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat105530580%3Bcat104800680

Those are actually made by Umarex, I believe (and have the wonderful potmetal they are known for). Selector rotates 180 degrees to fire instead of 90 and bolt hold open does not function.

[Bob F.]

Are you looking for a AR clone type trainer or agood marksmanship training rifle?? If the latter, check this out:

http://forums.wvcdl.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=854

Perfect for Appleseed!

Stay safe.
Bob

[AZRedhawk44]

Are you looking for a AR clone type trainer or agood marksmanship training rifle?? If the latter, check this out:

http://forums.wvcdl.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=854

Perfect for Appleseed!

Stay safe.
Bob

Got 2 Marlin 795's and a Savage 64F that I used as Appleseed LTR's.

Selling one Marlin and the Savage since I'm no longer Appleseeding.  Keeping one 795 with an M1907 sling and Williams "fool proof" aperture sights that turn out to have approximately 1/3 MOA click adjustments (Williams sights adjustments vary due to varying barrel lengths and sight radiuses, but they seem to be approximately 1/3 MOA on this rifle).

This is to build carbine tactic familiarity as I want to get into 3 gun competitions in the next year or so.

[Fly320s]

This is to build carbine tactic familiarity as I want to get into 3 gun competitions in the next year or so.

Then you really want to stay with an AR pattern rifle, and stay away from the Sig.

Also, the .22 is good for a very limited amount of training.  Multiple shots and long-range shots just can't be practiced well with a .22.

[geronimotwo]

Those are actually made by Umarex, I believe (and have the wonderful potmetal they are known for). Selector rotates 180 degrees to fire instead of 90 and bolt hold open does not function.

good to know,  i would have thought that with the colt name it couldn't be a bad thing.

[Boomhauer]

good to know,  i would have thought that with the colt name it couldn't be a bad thing.

Colt got stupid in this aspect and farmed it out for some unfathomable reason. They've been making better decisions as of late, but occasionally, something like this happens. And it's not just a colt thing, several other manufactores for some reason aren't williing to do their .22LR guns entirely in house. Don't make a bit of sense to me.

[Harold Tuttle]

what irks me about the ceiner conversion/dedicated upper AR15s is you spend 2or4X the price of a 10/22 and get highpoint accuracy

[AZRedhawk44]

HT:  The ceiner BCG conversions are a totally different creature than a dedicated .22 upper.  I can see getting craptastic accuracy with those.  The dedicated uppers are actually the correct internal diameter and rate of twist.

[Harold Tuttle]

yeah but in some of them its a rebated ceiner stuffed in a normal upper

http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/KPF%20.22%20upper%20M-4.htm

http://www.compasslake.com/22uppers.htm

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/22lr-uppers-c-72_73.html

Regarding the Spike's Tactical .22lr bolt. Our bolt is based on the Atchison design with improvements including the following: an electroless nickel finish gives it a much slicker, smoother finish so you do not have to run it as wet which means the bolt stays cleaner longer. We have changed some tolerances, beefed up the firing pin and pre-drilled for a ball-detent.

[T.O.M.]

I'm in the same position...researching the .22 in anticipation of going with the centerfire down the road.  Right now, I'm leaning towards the S&W.  Reason is that (1) reliability is good from what I've read, as good as any .22; (2) same manual of arms as the AR-15/M4, including the bolt release; (3) many accessories for the centerfire will work with the rimfire.  The third is the big seller for me, as I'm working on a budget (as I'm sure you are), so any money I spend on accessories is an investment in the future.

I'm not worried about the gun being "plastic."  Half of my handguns are plastic/polymer.  And, if you can flex the gun enough to change the point of impact, then I guess I won't pull on the sling that hard.   

[Boomhauer]

I'm in the same position...researching the .22 in anticipation of going with the centerfire down the road.  Right now, I'm leaning towards the S&W.  Reason is that (1) reliability is good from what I've read, as good as any .22; (2) same manual of arms as the AR-15/M4, including the bolt release; (3) many accessories for the centerfire will work with the rimfire.  The third is the big seller for me, as I'm working on a budget (as I'm sure you are), so any money I spend on accessories is an investment in the future.

I'm not worried about the gun being "plastic."  Half of my handguns are plastic/polymer.  And, if you can flex the gun enough to change the point of impact, then I guess I won't pull on the sling that hard.   

S&W designed the internals to work with the .22LR cartridge rather than modifying the Ceiner type kit for a dedicated gun. Nordic Components (they make a really, really nice dedicated upper) based their internals on the 10/22 for reliability. Most other makers of .22LR uppers use the Ceiner style design.

The S&W mags are also pretty well designed and right affordable at $20 apiece.