How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?

[roo_ster]

And kids are a choice, no?  Actions have consequences.

True.  Just trying to inject some of the real complexity out there into our conversation. 

Many folks do the wise/ right thing and don't have kids until they can afford them.  Then they get hit with a layoff or such.  Not everyone who has kids craps them out by the dozen at the county hospital for their neighbor to pick up the tab and then waddle over to the welfare office for ADFDC, WIC, etc.

Besides, if the only kids born were those that were planned, this nation would have ended long ago.

[Fitz]

Ain't that the truth

I never intended to have a kid

[birdman]

Ain't that the truth

I never intended to have a kid

Easy way to lock in the hottie though :)
And she's a cool kid!

[Fitz]

Word

[KD5NRH]

Why not a capitalist way?  Even ultra-liberals tout microloans as working in impoverished other countries...why not something here?  Find a way for someone to borrow $x @ reasonable rate, in a "ninja" fashion, without all the paperwork...

Basically, a kickstarter for people.  I know plenty of people who would want to make a reliable 5-10% return on a few k to 10's of k, or more, but its the management that is the annoying part.

This.  I'd be a great example right now; I have the opportunity to make extra sales commissions when I'm not doing my system design work.  I might even be able to pull a bit higher commission percentage since half the on-site sales job is gathering the information I use for the design, explaining the design to the customer, and finding the happy medium between what the customer wants and what is possible.  Doing all this on my own time eliminates a couple hours of work that they're already paying me for, (A good chunk of that is the time I spend on the phone or email with the sales rep going over the design, which obviously doesn't happen at all when I work directly with the customer.) so I could argue for a little more money based on that.
I can't do that at the moment, because my vehicle died, and thanks to divorce, child support and other expenses, I don't have the cash for even a down payment ready at hand.  I'd be happy with a 10% interest no-hassle short-term loan on an ugly (but reliable) used car that would barely qualify for some sleazy back room financing deal, (say $5k for one year at worst) and it would be a win-win; I would likely make more than the total interest cost in the few weeks that I would have the car before otherwise being able to afford it, (not counting the savings and convenience of being able to go 2 miles to the grocery store or WalMart at will instead of the quick stop across the street) and the lender would have a reasonably safe investment.

[birdman]

Word

I meant your wife is a cool kid....cradle robber
Your kid is cool to though :)

[Scout26]

Dogmush, you forgot the Great Migration of Europeans (with little more than the clothes on their backs), 1836-1916, to America from and the Great Migration of 6 Million+ African-Americans from the south to the industrial north, 1910-1930.

Other then those examples.  It's clearly impossible.   

[Ron]

Pride, self respect and a work ethic born out of the understanding that if you didn't work you didn't eat used to be part of our "common culture", shared across all ethnicity's and sub-cultures.

The New Deal and decades of the modern welfare state have eroded our national character. People now believe they have a right to a home, 3 squares a day and free health care. Work is how you pay for your toys. 

[charby]

How many of you believe in hiring someone to shoot me in the face if I don't give over my money for your beliefs?

You like hand-ups, give some money to the YMCA/YWCA/Salvation Army/Goodwill.  Participate in your local funny-hatted masonic lodge, elks club, or church.

Quit trying to project your false morality at the barrel of a hired gun, for money that isn't even yours and instead belongs to others.

Seriously??

I really don't like you "shoot me in the face" analogy, a bit of a extreme stretch. I'm not sure if you are some loud mouth keyboard commando or the next Randy Weaver. Also do you ever reread what you write?

I volunteer with a lot of community service groups in my free-time, some of them I have even been the president. I also donate to charities that have the least amount of overhead because I want as much of my donation to be used for the cause, one of my favorites is the Salvation Army.

[MillCreek]

One of my favorite charities that I participate in is called Sharing Wheels, where we collect, refurbish and distribute bicycles to people who need them.   Most of the bicycles go to low-income children or adults. 

[AZRedhawk44]

Seriously??

I really don't like you "shoot me in the face" analogy, a bit of a extreme stretch. I'm not sure if you are some loud mouth keyboard commando or the next Randy Weaver. Also do you ever reread what you write?

I volunteer with a lot of community service groups in my free-time, some of them I have even been the president. I also donate to charities that have the least amount of overhead because I want as much of my donation to be used for the cause, one of my favorites is the Salvation Army.

Charby, it's 100% heart-felt.  Just because you don't like the analogy doesn't make it any less valid.

Taxes are legitimized violence that boils down to justified murder in the event of non-compliance.  If I don't pay the taxes that the majority voted to impose upon me, then a chain of increasingly forceful responses are pressed upon me until I cave, or I die.
1. Paper.  Notices of non-compliance, regulatory fees, etc.
2. Summons to court.
3. Failure to appear in court due to non-compliance will result in warrants for my arrest.
4. Resisting the warrant will result in escalation of force resulting in death.


Every tax has that chain of response.

What taxes are worth killing someone over?

If someone believes in their heart of hearts that XYZ tax is immoral and refuses to pay it, refuses to comply with it, refuses to allow their property or wealth be repossessed over the issue, and refuses to go to jail over noncompliance... they will be killed.

So.  What taxes are you willing to hire other people to kill people for?

[AZRedhawk44]

And, given that list of taxes you are willing to hire killers to enforce...

... why are those who lack the money to pay the tax given a pass, but those who have the money but morally oppose the tax given the escalation of force routine, up to death?

Why is financial capability, when coupled with a moral opposition to the tax, a death sentence?

[charby]

I still don't agree with your analogy.

So you are saying you are going to stop paying income tax and other taxes because you don't agree with how the money is being spent. I'm saying that because many of the items we have discussed in this thread are already being done with taxes collected. That being said you aren't paying taxes now, and you are going to get served papers, refuse to pay, the resist arrests and some law enforcement officer is going to shoot you because you are resisting arrest? Are you going to shoot them when come to your house to arrest you? Are you planning on doing this soon?

[AZRedhawk44]

I still don't agree with your analogy.

So you are saying you are going to stop paying income tax and other taxes because you don't agree with how the money is being spent. I'm saying that because many of the items we have discussed in this thread are already being done with taxes collected. That being said you aren't paying taxes now, and you are going to get served papers, refuse to pay, the resist arrests and some law enforcement officer is going to shoot you because you are resisting arrest? Are you going to shoot them when come to your house to arrest you? Are you planning on doing this soon?

Cost-benefit analysis doesn't wash here for me in this instance.  Because I have the patience to balance imprisonment versus potential freedom, and a voice to present my perspective to people capable of hearing it, there's no point in mindlessly throwing myself in a petulant rage at the machine.  The gears are too sharp and too well lubed.  I won't make a difference and I won't get any reward out of it.

And you're dodging the question.

What taxes are worth killing people over?  And why are they worth killing people wealthy enough to pay, but not worth killing poor people who can't pay them? 

[AZRedhawk44]

This question, Charby, is the next level of wookie-suit in right/libertarian politics.

Crazy right now.  Perfectly rational in 10 years.  And it becomes more rational from greater exposure.  Just like the Paulbots.

[charby]

Cost-benefit analysis doesn't wash here for me in this instance.  Because I have the patience to balance imprisonment versus potential freedom, and a voice to present my perspective to people capable of hearing it, there's no point in mindlessly throwing myself in a petulant rage at the machine.  The gears are too sharp and too well lubed.  I won't make a difference and I won't get any reward out of it.

And you're dodging the question.

What taxes are worth killing people over?  And why are they worth killing people wealthy enough to pay, but not worth killing poor people who can't pay them? 

I'm not dodging the question.

It pretty hard to live in the US and not ever pay a tax. No matter how high or how low a tax maybe someone somewhere will not like it and try not to pay any taxes. So there really isn't an answer you your question.

Also, I'm pretty sure people don't get killed for not paying taxes unless they present violence towards the person coming to arrest them or serve papers.

[MillCreek]

What taxes are worth killing someone over?

If someone believes in their heart of hearts that XYZ tax is immoral and refuses to pay it, refuses to comply with it, refuses to allow their property or wealth be repossessed over the issue, and refuses to go to jail over noncompliance... they will be killed.

So.  What taxes are you willing to hire other people to kill people for?

Perhaps, for the Rugged Individualist, the question should be rephrased: what taxes are worth you dying for?  In the scenario above, the Rugged Individualist has a choice at each step of the process.  I would expect the Rugged Individualist to have the courage of his convictions and to die with a pure heart, knowing that he never kowtowed to the Man and paid taxes.  

As to what taxes are you willing to hire other people to kill people for, the answer is all of them.  If I have no problem hiring other people to conduct drone strikes and kill innocent civilians who just happen to be in proximity to a wanted target, or to pay G98 to fly around in a BUFF all those years training for a nuclear drop on the Soviet Union, what does some isolated tax protestor amount to?

[charby]

This question, Charby, is the next level of wookie-suit in right/libertarian politics.

Crazy right now.  Perfectly rational in 10 years.  And it becomes more rational from greater exposure.  Just like the Paulbots.

I challege you to live day to day, say a year and not use or consume anything that was tax payer funded in someway.

[AZRedhawk44]

I'm not dodging the question.

It pretty hard to live in the US and not ever pay a tax. No matter how high or how low a tax maybe someone somewhere will not like it and try not to pay any taxes. So there really isn't an answer you your question.

Also, I'm pretty sure people don't get killed for not paying taxes unless they present violence towards the person coming to arrest them or serve papers.

Consumption-based taxes are easy to either comply with, or avoid.

They also operate on a subscription basis, in most cases.  Want to drive on the roads?  Pay the license fee for your operator's permit, license your vehicle annually, and pay fuel excise taxes.  Want to fly a plane in US-controlled airspace?  Similar situation.  Want to use city infrastructure to receive water to your residence?  Pay per gallon, plus a general fee for infrastructure.

HUD, DOD, DHS, however... not so easy.  You can't conscientiously object to taxes that fund these, because they aren't itemized or consumed on a per capita basis.

The majority just says "we want this" and point to everyone and compel them to pay for it by the threat of violence for noncompliance.


I don't object to taxes in theory.

I object to taxes that aren't levied on a per-capita basis.  Or a consumption/receipt basis.

Every act of government should be subject to taxpayer sabotage by refusal to fund that project... by simply pursuing a different choice in commerce.

[AZRedhawk44]

I challege you to live day to day, say a year and not use or consume anything that was tax payer funded in someway.

Dear sweet fluffy $diety, I wish I could.

[charby]

Consumption-based taxes are easy to either comply with, or avoid.

They also operate on a subscription basis, in most cases.  Want to drive on the roads?  Pay the license fee for your operator's permit, license your vehicle annually, and pay fuel excise taxes.  Want to fly a plane in US-controlled airspace?  Similar situation.  Want to use city infrastructure to receive water to your residence?  Pay per gallon, plus a general fee for infrastructure.

HUD, DOD, DHS, however... not so easy.  You can't conscientiously object to taxes that fund these, because they aren't itemized or consumed on a per capita basis.

The majority just says "we want this" and point to everyone and compel them to pay for it by the threat of violence for noncompliance.


I don't object to taxes in theory.

I object to taxes that aren't levied on a per-capita basis.  Or a consumption/receipt basis.

Every act of government should be subject to taxpayer sabotage by refusal to fund that project... by simply pursuing a different choice in commerce.

So what do you do about people who need constant mental health, or the adult special needs person with a IQ of an 8 year old. What about the survivors of a 8.5 earthquake?

[AZRedhawk44]

So what do you do about people who need constant mental health, or the adult special needs person with a IQ of an 8 year old. What about the survivors of a 8.5 earthquake?

What are you doing about my friend with a bad knee surgery that was a failure and can't work 7 months later?


Strangers aren't my problem.

I help friends and family.

[roo_ster]

Seriously??

I really don't like you "shoot me in the face" analogy, a bit of a extreme stretch.

Uh, not so much.  Gov't is violence.  Having once taken Uncle Sam's coin to be one of those agents(1), it was something I thought about and reconciled myself to.

Every law and every tax has at its bottom some dude paid to shoot you in the face if you persist in non-compliance.  Once you figure that out, it makes a moral man think long and hard about what laws he might support.  If one is honest with oneself, the question ought to be, "For what laws and taxes am I willing to shot someone in the face for non-compliance?"






(1) In the general understanding, not specific title.

[RevDisk]

I'm not dodging the question.

It pretty hard to live in the US and not ever pay a tax. No matter how high or how low a tax maybe someone somewhere will not like it and try not to pay any taxes. So there really isn't an answer you your question.

Also, I'm pretty sure people don't get killed for not paying taxes unless they present violence towards the person coming to arrest them or serve papers.

You can only make folks do what you tell them to do by incentive, reason or coercion. I work because I'm paid. I volunteer because I concur with the goals of the entity for which I do unpaid work. I pay my taxes because otherwise folks with guns would drag me to jail.

Taxes are usually not an incentive or lofty goal. I imagine some fraction of the population would pay taxes, even if there was no negative consequence to not paying them. Ergo, taxes historically have been backed up by folks willing to use force to make you pay. While ideally tax evaders would not be shot in the face, it's a definite possibility. It has to be, or folks wouldn't pay. Every politician should remember for every law passed, it will be interpreted by thousands of law enforcement officers and prosecutors in whatever way is most convenient. Accidents happen. Over enforcement happen. Human emotions happen.

At the end of the day, yes, every law with no incentive for compliance should be regarded with "Is this worth someone getting shot in the face? Or losing their home? Or being financially ruined? Or losing their job?" etc etc. If the answer is no, politicians should probably ponder a bit more.

[AZRedhawk44]

 

As to what taxes are you willing to hire other people to kill people for, the answer is all of them.  If I have no problem hiring other people to conduct drone strikes and kill innocent civilians who just happen to be in proximity to a wanted target, or to pay G98 to fly around in a BUFF all those years training for a nuclear drop on the Soviet Union, what does some isolated tax protestor amount to?

False parallel is false.  You can't draw a parallel between warfare theater operations and tax enforcement.  Warfare theaters exist outside the scope of the political process inside a nation's borders.  Ostensibly, if US foreign policy is 100% perfect, all US warfare theaters are defensive and just.  Tax enforcement exists inside the scope of a nation's political process.  A tax protestor isn't trying to nuke you, bomb your city, or shoot you with a rifle.  He's trying to keep what is his own property, as his own property.  The tax protestor is rejecting your assertion of ownership over his property and life.  Any attack on a tax protestor is by definition an offensive action by those enforcing the tax law, and response by the tax protestor is by definition a defensive action.

Embrace that, and really roll it around in your head for awhile, Millcreek.

Then ask yourself, how are you any different from the Free *expletive deleted*it^TM Army?  You're getting Free *expletive deleted*it^TM, taking it by compulsion from others.  Free safety nets that you think are acceptable reasons to take money at threat of violence from other people.  Free, free, free.  Yay, free.

The only difference between your stance and an Obamaphone/Obamastash Detroit inner city morlock, is the degree of legitimized theft at State-sponsored gunpoint that you believe in.

Maybe we need to change the national anthem.

Land of the Free *expletive deleted*it.
Home of the Brave face-shooters.