How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?

[MillCreek]

Please to explain how without tax enforcement, we can pay for your defensive and just US warfare theaters.  Whether it is warfare or enforcement of laws, it is all funded by taxes.  False dichotomy is false. 

And again, to be clear, I have no problems with the tax laws being enforced at the point of a gun.  Do you have the cojones of your convictions to tell Uncle Sam to blank off and come get me?  If not, you are just another keyboard commando.

[dogmush]

Umm....No.

AZ You CHOOSE to live in a social contract.  Part of that social contract is that we all give up some of our property to do things.  Exactly what things, and exactly how much property is often debated loudly by those of us in the contract.  But the basic underpinning; That we will all give some of our property up to pay for things that those of us in the contract want, is valid.

Tax collectors use force to make those few who are living here in this contract but not giving their property in the agreed upon fashion live up to their end of the contract.

Don't like it?  If you really think the whole idea is immoral, that's you're right.  Buy a boat, renounce your citizenship and GTFO.  Honestly we probably won't bother to even collect the taxes on the boat.

But as long as you are here, inside our social contract, you have an obligation to live up to your end of it.

And yes, the way we go about deciding that is shitty, inefficient, and often *expletive deleted*s over some good people.  Many folks are working hard to fix that.  We have processes (imperfect as they are themselves) to do that very thing.  Help us out. or not as you choose.

But

If you choose to stay here in this social contract that is America there are obligations attached to that.  Sorry.

[AZRedhawk44]

Dogmush:

So I am required to abide by the social contract?  What is your justification for this claim?  That would pre-suppose that some mechanism has ownership over me.  What is that mechanism that has ownership over me?  When did I make this choice you say I made? 

What other contracts am I required to abide by?


I propose that the only "contract" I am required to abide by is the Non-Aggression Principle.  Start no fights.  Commit no murder.  Steal no property.

I don't see why the State shouldn't be constrained by the same NAP.  Start no fights.  Commit no murder.  Steal no property.  It's not that hard.

As far as GTFO... that action requires capital.  I lack the capital to do it.  Biggest boat I could buy right now (liquidating everything I own) might be some little 30-40ft sailboat that would be squashed by the first storm I came across.  So GTFO is a death sentence to anyone that can't afford a kickass big ocean-worthy boat.  It's a Rockefeller solution, not a Joe Schmoe solution.  Any GTFO solution needs to be something that allows for someone who reaches age of majority (18) to accomplish upon the date he is supposed to comply with this social contract of yours.

If there were a liberanarchocapitalist utopia out there, I'd make plans, pick up and move.  There isn't one.

So, I work on finding like-minded people here in the US. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

As far as GTFO... that action requires capital.  I lack the capital to do it.

if iirc some were earlier commenting about folks relocating their families with less,    who were those folks again?

[AZRedhawk44]

As far as GTFO... that action requires capital.  I lack the capital to do it.

if iirc some were earlier commenting about folks relocating their families with less,    who were those folks again?

Moving from point A to point B isn't hard.

Moving from point A to [somewhere that doesn't exist other than the middle of the ocean currently] is a bit harder.

ETA:  I'm also not asking for government hand-outs to buy a sailboat or get to a libertarian-oriented State.

[Balog]

Social contract = civilization. The funny little Anarchotopia fantasyland where strict adherence to the NAP is the only morality is a masturbatory dream, as well as an explicit rejection of all of human civilization. Now, I don't really care if you want to wank off, but it gets annoying when you persist on doing it all over good threads.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Moving from point A to point B isn't hard.

Moving from point A to [somewhere that doesn't exist other than the middle of the ocean currently] is a bit harder.

ETA:  I'm also not asking for government hand-outs to buy a sailboat or get to a libertarian-oriented State.

was that an answer?  no wonder the revolution is dead
its toooooo haaaarrrrdddd

[AZRedhawk44]

was that an answer?  no wonder the revolution is dead
its toooooo haaaarrrrdddd

It's not tooooo harrrrrdddd.

It takes time and money.

Where do I get time and money, if not here?  I'm adhering to your stupid rules so I don't get shot in the face by your enforcers, while saving money and biding my time.

But I'm also talking to people to help them understand that while "no taxation without representation" is a good beginning, it's been exploited in the last 250 years and turned into a monster.  It needs a correlary:  no representation without taxation.  And an exemption:  it's okay to have no representation and have no taxation.

[roo_ster]

There is no such thing as a social contract, with mutual obligations binding the signers.  "Social Contract" is just another bullscat notion divorced from reality, thought up by JJ Rousseau.  In the end, you got what RevDisk wrote:  "incentive, reason or coercion."

I might add revelation to that, but RevDisk covered most of it.

The "social contract" has meaning and force only inasmuch as those means apply, and "coercion" is the trump card.  Which is why RKBA is so important.  It gives the inconsequential many a means to say "no" to the few of consequence.  You can wave "social contract" about, and even the founding documents, but if the governing class says you WILL provide insurance that covers abortion and such to your employees, no reason, revelation, faith, or incentive will stop them.  Their coercion trumps all.

Coercion has been on the upswing in America and the COTUS & DoI on the wane because the consequential and many of the inconsequential no longer reason as did the decision-makers did then.  They no longer believe in the revelation of scripture and how that is tied up in the legitimacy of the founding documents.  

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Defenestrate Nature's God and the Creator, and the rest falls apart as an argument.  It has no force, other than force.  "We do this because we can and you can not prevent us."  

============================

was that an answer?  no wonder the revolution is dead
its toooooo haaaarrrrdddd

It's not tooooo harrrrrdddd.

It takes time and money.

Where do I get time and money, if not here?  I'm adhering to your stupid rules so I don't get shot in the face by your enforcers, while saving money and biding my time.

Place a man in chains and then mock him for his limited grasp.  Great fun across the ages.

[Balog]

Roo: call it a social contract, call it civilization, call it a mutual recognition of the laws of nature and nature's God. It's all the same.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

It's not tooooo harrrrrdddd.

It takes time and money.

Where do I get time and money, if not here?  I'm adhering to your stupid rules so I don't get shot in the face by your enforcers, while saving money and biding my time.

But I'm also talking to people to help them understand that while "no taxation without representation" is a good beginning, it's been exploited in the last 250 years and turned into a monster.  It needs a correlary:  no representation without taxation.  And an exemption:  it's okay to have no representation and have no taxation.

oh come on you are part of the masses now. 2 motorcycles?  like my brother said to me. "you've gone from fighting the establishment to being the establishment!"   the trappings are so tempting

[AZRedhawk44]

oh come on you are part of the masses now. 2 motorcycles?  like my brother said to me. "you've gone from fighting the establishment to being the establishment!"   the trappings are so tempting

I own those bikes flat-out.  The first one has already paid for 35% of itself in gas savings compared to driving the truck, even with its new price sticker rather than getting a used one for half the price.

I own my truck flat-out.

I'm 99% done with my student loan payments.  3 more months and I'm free of that.

I'm about to enter a phase in my life with a DISGUSTING amount of potentially disposable income.  I already have more than enough of that to get me into trouble, hence two motorcycles bought cash-down in the last year.  $3500-$4000 given to a friend in the last 6 months.  $500 given to a girl I was dating to put new tires on her car (steel showing through the rubber).  .223 and 7.62x54R ammo given to my brother pretty much whenever he wants it.  Selling an AR to a friend for a paltry $300, to get him into responsible marksmanship and shooting.

Once my friend finally recovers and the student loans are gone and the house is refinanced to sub 3.5% and so on, I'll be able to take flight lessons AND save for a down payment on a plane.  Or save for a sailboat.  Or look for a floating libertarian anti-hippie, anti-pirate, anti-statist community on a string of oil rigs in Polynesia.  I have a friend here in AZ that recently bought some land up north on some sort of funky deed... I forgot what it's called.  Not allodial, it's even deeper than that.  Some sort of trust deed, can't remember the name.  I might explore that.  Whatever.

Or I might quit my job, find something that I can feed myself working 10-20 hours a week, and use the rest of the time on my own endeavors rather than someone else's projects.

I'm really excited about it because I can actually explore the potential for freedom.

Unless, of course, our Statist betters figure out some way to compel me to replace that overhead with a series of new taxes or fees or compulsory behaviors.  After all, we can't have people becoming free of their shackles that hold them to the wheel that pushes the system.  System before the individual, collective before the citizen, economy before freedom.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

what kinda anarchist has a mortgage?
you've been assimilated and don't even know it

[Fitz]

Those student loans... were they federally subsidized?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its like a peta protester in leather shoes


was it a public school?

[Fitz]

AZ, if you wanted college, you should have paid for it yourself...

[MillCreek]

Even worse, he went to college in my state (IIRC) and was subsidized by my tax dollars, as I am a lifelong tax-paying resident of Washington.   Where is my return on this investment?

[Boomhauer]

You might not want to get into flying with your attitude. Lots of govt regulation in that.

[MicroBalrog]

Are we seriously going for the "if you are a libertarian, using any public service at all is hypocritical" argument?

[Fitz]

Are we seriously going for the "if you are a libertarian, using any public service at all is hypocritical" argument?

Not at all, I'm merely trying to Give him a well-earned hard time

[AZRedhawk44]

Even worse, he went to college in my state (IIRC) and was subsidized by my tax dollars, as I am a lifelong tax-paying resident of Washington.   Where is my return on this investment?

My school was a private school.  I don't think your WA state tax dollars were used to educate me.  And if so, I had WA residency and paid taxes on my income, even as a part-time worker.  And my parents were also in WA and paid taxes on their income.

Those student loans... were they federally subsidized?

No.  They were unsubsidized Staffords. 

Next question?

[Fitz]

Unsubsidized Stafford loans still have an element of government funding, unless you think the program administers Itself for free

They are also still federally guaranteed

Which is why the interest rates artificially low

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Loan

In 1988, Congress renamed the Federal Guaranteed Student Loan program the Robert T. Stafford Student Loan program, in honor of U.S. Senator Robert Stafford, a Republican from Vermont, for his work on higher education.[1]

Because the loans are guaranteed by the full faith of the US Government, they are offered at a lower interest rate than the borrower would otherwise be able to get for a private loan. On the other hand, there are strict eligibility requirements and borrowing limits on Stafford Loans.

Students applying for a Stafford Loan or other federal financial aid must first complete a FAFSA. Stafford Loans are available to students directly from the United States Department of Education through the Federal Direct Student Loan Program (FDSLP, also known as Direct).

No payments are expected on the loan while the student is enrolled as a full- or half-time student. This is referred to as in-school deferment. Deferment of repayment continues for six months after the student leaves school either by graduating, dropping below half-time enrollment, or withdrawing. This is referred to as the grace period.

Stafford Loans are available both as subsidized and unsubsidized loans. Subsidized loans are offered to students based on demonstrated financial need. The interest on subsidized loans is paid by the federal government while the student is in school, during the grace period, and during authorized deferment. For unsubsidized Stafford Loans, students are responsible for all of the interest that accrues while the student is enrolled in school. The interest may be deferred throughout enrollment. Unpaid interest that is deferred until after graduation is capitalized (added to the loan principal).

[Balog]

Are we seriously going for the "if you are a libertarian, using any public service at all is hypocritical" argument?

If you get frothing at the mouth indignant about how anyone who approves of any form of .gov doing anything just wants you to get shot in the face, and then use a bunch of .gov money in your personal life then yeah...

[RevDisk]

Are we seriously going for the "if you are a libertarian, using any public service at all is hypocritical" argument?

I concur that libertarian != anarchist. And I dunno if my small-L libertarian card is going to be revoked, but I think states should be able to do as they please providing they don't violate folks' rights or the Constitution. Small, limited federal government.

I was in the military, and went to college based on government funds given to me because of my service. I happen to think military service is a valid function of government, even if it should radically be trimmed and scope limited. And employee benefits are not unethical either.