Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: grislyatoms on July 07, 2018, 06:19:32 AM
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Going to shoot .22lr through one of my AR's, then .38, then .40 SW, then .223. Just so she kinda understands the different power levels/contralability. Should be fun!
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Oh, and some 9mm between the .38 and .40.
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Controlability (spelled it incorrectly above). She is a Greenhorn. Never fired a gun in her entire life. Already discussed safety. I'll teach her correctly!
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With new shooters, I've found they can be kind of overwhelmed by a lot of different safety's triggers sights etc. they usually try to focus on being safe and everything is new.
I like to start them out with a .22 and let them shoot it until they are comfortable and let them guide what and how much they shoot next. They might also get exhausted sooner because of the higher stress reaction.
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Huh. Didn't consider. She wants a self-defense arm but doesn't know what she wants. Just trying to give her some choices. With your comments, I will bring an AR (CMMG bolt for .22 LR), my model 66 (just .38, no .357), and a 9mm. If she wants to shoot the full .357/.223 she may.
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Intending to steer her towards a revolver to start. What do y'all think? For a brand-new shooter?
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Intending to steer her towards a revolver to start. What do y'all think? For a brand-new shooter?
Depends on the size and strength of her hands. Generally, I don't recommend revolvers for women/old/weak people.
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Depends on the size and strength of her hands. Generally, I don't recommend revolvers for women/old/weak people.
The Ruger LCR may be an exception to that, though a snubbie is not for everyone, especially new shooters. I don't keep up anymore, so don't know if other manufacturers have revolvers in other sizes with a similar DA trigger pull?
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I used to think revolvers first but now I think most new shooters, women especially do well with a mid size 9 or 380. My wife settled on a Glock 43 for SD and cc.
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Intending to steer her towards a revolver to start. What do y'all think? For a brand-new shooter?
Mid size 9mm auto, striker fired, no safety. Drill it into her that the safety is between the ears, not a mechanical device.
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I should add I wasn't arguing in favor of a revolver. I wasn't arguing against either. I think it always comes down to what the person comfortably shoots the best. I think in most cases, that's probably autos.
On the safety argument, I agree with "the safety is between the ears". If you're getting a gun for self defense, learn properly and practice regularly (or at the very, very, very least, a few times year). If you're just going to shoot a few different guns, pick one, then stick it in the nightstand lockbox and maybe take it out to look at once a year, it probably doesn't matter if it's a .22 revolver or a .50AE. :)
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Really? I figured a revolver would be perfect for someone new. Simple to operate, simple to make safe.
Toni is *very* strong. She regularly handles an 800 lb. motorcycle.
She's also...how might I say it gently...absent-minded? A bit?
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Perhaps I'll steer her towards a 1911-style 9mm. Grip safety/thumb safety. I have a Springfield EMP4 9mm carry but that's a 1K hand gun. (I didn't pay that but that's what it retails for and it's *MINE* *My baby*) Or, my CZ-75 compact?
Getting ahead of myself. Once we get back, if y'all will allow, I'll pick your brains once again.
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I tend towards a DA revo for novices wanting a house gun. Simple, effective, and several fewer things that can fail in a defense situation. No potential for limp-wristing. No controls to remember or accidently engage. No tap/rack/bang drills. It's point and click with second strike capability
That being said, if the person seems more comfortable with an SA and is willing to sufficiently learn the basics of operation and emergency clearing drills, go with their preference.
Brad
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Time will tell but I think I agree with Brad. For Antoinette, an SA/DA revolver .38/.357 would be the right choice. If she wants to go with a semi-auto she certainly has the choice.
Again, we'll see what she likes here soon!
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Make sure of adequate hearing protection. I had that once with a first-timer. I didn't realize that her hair, earrings, and glasses could interfere with the sealing.
Also, when getting to the high powered stuff (or if someone nearby is) warn her about the concussive slap, especially indoors. That bothered my first time lady friend until she learned to ignore it. Guy next to us was shooting a 239 X 785 mm round. Or something like that.
Terry
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One thing I've seen a couple of times with women is that if they wear a low-cut shirt that exposes their cleavage there is like a 99% chance that a hot case will find its way in there.
It happened to my wife, the case somehow got jammed up against her skin by the underwire, and she carried an underboob scar for quite a while. It also happened to a woman in the lane next to me and she did the Dance of Pain while holding her gun. Fortunately the person she was with kept her from leaving the stall. Otherwise who knows what kind of gyrations she would have made and what might have happened with such a panicked person waving a gun around.
Now these both happened on an indoor range with lane separators where cases can bounce off of them and then off go in random directions. It's not such a problem in an open area unless you have shooters next to each other and one is throwing brass towards the other.
And for the same reason suggest close-toed shoes. That's one I did to myself. Wore Birkenstocks to the range and ended up doing an impromptu one-legged kick-dance as a hot .40 case took up temporary residence in my sandal.
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For a novice shooter, I generally recommend a 3-4 inch stainless .357 revolver, for all the reasons mentioned by Brad.
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Toni is *very* strong. She regularly handles an 800 lb. motorcycle.
So, she drives an 800 pound motorcycle at highway speeds without killing herself or others, yet she can't handle a semi-auto pistol? Something is not adding up.
By all means, let her try the revolver and the other guns, but don't box her into the "too dumb to operated a semi-auto" just yet.
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I tend towards a DA revo for novices wanting a house gun. Simple, effective, and several fewer things that can fail in a defense situation. No potential for limp-wristing. No controls to remember or accidently engage. No tap/rack/bang drills. It's point and click with second strike capability
That being said, if the person seems more comfortable with an SA and is willing to sufficiently learn the basics of operation and emergency clearing drills, go with their preference.
Brad
They all have complications. Stuff to wrap one's head around. Everyone knows about triggers from TeeVee and such. Even the simplest autoloader has a bunch of extra control buttons and levers. Revolvers are simple, until it's time to reload. Then there's another bunch of controls, and fiddly motions.
It just has to be learned.
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Revolvers are simple, until it's time to reload. Then there's another bunch of controls, and fiddly motions.
Correct, but the number of controls and fiddly motions involved in loading a typical DA revolver is a fraction of the number needed for the loading and charging of a semi auto. The same applies for use and FTF situations.
In practical/applied terms, the only control needing familiarization on a DA revo is the cylinder latch. Inserting catridges and closing the cylinder are a reasonably intuitive action even for those absolutely unfamiliar with firearms. Firing a DA revolver is simularly intuitive... point and click. The same can't be said of a semi auto, in either preparation or usage terms.
Brad
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I have an H&R .22 break-top. It unloads itself for you! One less bit of fiddlin' to worry about!*
*Unless an empty gets stuck under the star.
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I have been interested to see the number of older shooters of my acquaintance who have switched or gone back to a revolver for everyday carry. The reason is diminishing hand or grip strength making it difficult to work a semi auto slide with a strong spring.
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Fly320s - she had never fired a gun until this morning. Ever.
Ok so after shooting .38 from a revolver (SW mod. 66), 9mm from a 1911 Springfield EMP, some 22LR from one of my M4's with a conversion kit, and watching me fire 5.56 Nato from same M4...
She wants the semi-auto 9mm 1911 Springfield EMP. We went to lunch after, and discussed a bit. (Great fish and chips at Steel Bender and their Skull Bucket IPA is fantastic by the way!)
I wouldn't have bet on that at 100:1 odds. I thought for sure she would go for the revolver. Going to work on getting her set up.
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Folks, would you mind too terribly if she joined our little group? Would love to have her around here.
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9mm 1911 Springfield EMP.
Never have had the privilege of firing one or even seeing one in person (that I can recall, anyway) but from what I've seen online it is an awesome gun and an excellent choice.
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Lol, Warren, I have done the "hot brass down t-shirt" dance myself. Luckily, didn't happen to her! This trip!
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Warren - I was asked by my close friend, co-worker, and gun-writer, Thomas Gomez, to critique the Springfield EMP4 9mm. He chose me because I have a decent enough understanding of how 1911's work. He's a Glock dude, mostly. I balked at first. Baah, 1911 should be .45 ACP.
I immediately fell in love with the product, after testing. I bought his sample on the spot.
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Folks, would you mind too terribly if she joined our little group? Would love to have her around here.
She doesn't sound like Our Kind of People.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20121018202422%2Fdowntonabbey%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ff1%2FLarryGrey.png&hash=9b23e68c9dc0087e8d57505fac27dbfdb388a5c0)
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No joke. The firearm pictured in the article is the exact same hand gun we shot this morning. It's mine, now.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/11/pistol-review-springfield-armory-1911-emp-4-concealed-carry-contour-9mm/
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Fistful, you're still around? Wow. Yeah, my girlfriend is the rabble your Mama warned you about. But she's in my bed, not yours. =D
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Fistful, you're still around? Wow. Yeah, my girlfriend is the rabble your Mama warned you about. But she's in my bed, not yours. =D
Then who's in my bed? ???
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Seriously, how are you doing, Fistful? How are things for you? I haven't spoken to you in a very long time.
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Then who's in my bed?
I'm going to go with a monkey made out of socks.
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Then who's in my bed? ???
Lol, you haven't changed! Good to hear from you, my man!
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Lol, you folk are the best! I have missed :old:each and every one of you!
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Seriously, how are you doing, Fistful? How are things for you? I haven't spoken to you in a very long time.
Well, I apparently have to get new timing chains in the ole Canyonero, so...
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If she tolerates you, I'm imagining the rest of us reprobates wont' scare her away. That plus I imagine the rest of the ladies on here won't mind having someone else to plot mischief against us with... :D
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Absofreakinglutely! Invite her in.
One thing I've seen a couple of times with women is that if they wear a low-cut shirt that exposes their cleavage there is like a 99% 110% chance that a hot case will find its way in there.
FTFY =D
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Don't forget to tell her there are no ads, it's free, and the boys and the girls are both very helpful to newbies.
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A friend of mine has the EMP 4. I would say it is a great shooting gun and pretty compact.
On some of the previous discussion, I have pulled out semi-autos that were sitting loaded for a while and shot them. My Glocks and XD's and CZ's generally functioned with no issue. I had a Sig P229 that didn't make it through the loaded magazine with a failure. IMO, if a gun is going to sit in a safe or on the shelf unused for long periods of time, either find a very trustworthy semi-auto or get a revolver.
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So, she likes the EMP best. Do you think she can become familiar enough with the gun to make it her primary gun? I mean, she is only a girl. Just because she can drive cars and motorcycles doesn't mean she can actually operate a semi-auto handgun. Yeah, she has a job and is self-reliant and is smart enough to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em, but she is still just a girl. Those darn EMPs have four (4!!!) buttons and levers to push. Sure, motorcycles have throttle, front brake, rear brake, gear lever, turn signal, horn, lights, and actual driving to stay alive, but motorcycle drivers get to use both hands and both feet. That's cheating. That isn't nearly as complicated as working a semi-auto pistol. /snark
Serious time. If she can drive a motorcycle, she can drive a semi-auto.
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When my arthritis got worse, I discovered that some blowback guns were very hard to rack, since they relied on a stiff recoil spring (and mass) instead of a mechanical lockup and a weaker spring.
(I originally noticed this because I had two otherwise identical Llama .380s, one blowback, the other a Browning lockup. As I got worse and worse, the difference became more and more noticeable. Women may have the same difficulty.)
Terry
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Those Beretta tip-up models sound like they would be just thing in that situation.
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Aren't those just .22 caliber?
I found the Llama I referred to was easier to rack if I cocked the hammer over an empty chamber first. I gave it away, and sort of regret it now since I've regained strength in my left hand.
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No, there's .25, .32, and .380 guns as well.
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^ Oh, I guess I'm behind the times on that one. Didn't realize they had expanded the caliber list. So I reckon they're all blowback? It's hard to imagine the mechanics of a locked-breech tip-up barrel.
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Folks, would you mind too terribly if she joined our little group? Would love to have her around here.
I don't understand. Why can't she just log in and boom! she's a member, no? She doesn't need our permission.
Terry, 230RN
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^ Oh, I guess I'm behind the times on that one. Didn't realize they had expanded the caliber list. So I reckon they're all blowback? It's hard to imagine the mechanics of a locked-breech tip-up barrel.
Jeez, "behind the times"? Just how old are you?
They’ve been around now for almost seventy years—those little Beretta pocket pistols with the tip up barrels. Just what is the deal with those things and why would you want one? Keep reading.
https://www.guns.com/2013/03/14/baby-berettas-a-tale-of-tip-up-barrels/
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I'm 79 years old.
(https://s14544.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Beretta-Minx-950B_long_and_short-300x251.jpg)
This is the gun I was familiar with oh-so-long ago. Saw an ad or a blurb on it Lordy only knows when (now I remember they were also chambered in .25 ACP). But since I was not interested in tip-ups I never pursued it further, although I'd seen more pics similar to that. So if they chambered them in .32 or .380, that's news to me.
I saw nothing in your cited article about any stiffer cartridge chamberings than .22LR and .25 ACP. If you have further information on heavier chamberings in that type of action, I'd like to know about them, since I suspect they're too powerful (except maybe the .32) for this type of action. The .380 is really pushing the upper limit for practical blowback operation in a small handgun.
Terry, 230RN
Image credit in properties
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Yeah, .380 is as far as it goes. It's like in break-tops, which I love, once you get to a certain level of pressure you've got to move on to a different type of action.
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Yeah, .380 is as far as it goes. It's like in break-tops, which I love, once you get to a certain level of pressure you've got to move on to a different type of action.
Not necessarily all that limiting... .357 Magnum:
htps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR-412_REX
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/MP_412.jpg)
However, it never entered production; it is unclear why this was, though it was likely due to its largest potential market, the United States, being closed because of an agreement between U.S. President Bill Clinton and Russian President Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s, voluntarily banning the import of firearms from Russia to the United States.[1]
I had one of those ancient Smith and Wesson break-top revolvers in .38 S&W (gave it away).
(https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/attachments/s-w-revolvers-1857-1945/17080d1364868565-old-top-break-double-action-s-w-left.jpg)
In playing with it, I discovered that type of action could have quite a tactical advantage in reloading over swingout-cylinder revolvers or SAAs if the proper speedloaders were available.
Thank you, former President Clinton ! [barf]
But that .357 is wandering afield from suitable concealable "lady's guns."
But something like that in one of those hot .32 magnum cartridges... hmmmm....
Terry, 230RN
Image credits in properties
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Never entered production so we never got to find out how it worked and how it failed.
Still, if it was built for .357 it likely would hold up forever with .38 if it was a quality build.
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Da, и Russkya build for strong, like is Russian bear.
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Folks - she had never fired a gun before Saturday. Ever!
I determined that she is cross-eye dominant, just like I am.
Fly320s - I had no illusions that she couldn't handle a semi-auto. Things like her cross-eye dominance *invariably* comes up in training sessions, which is one reason why I like to take them very slowly. She had never fired a gun before. Ever.
It's about finding the optimal hand gun for her. I thought she would enjoy the revolver just for it's ease of operation, Glad I had several options for her to explore.
I was wrong. She likes the 1911. I cannot blame her, that's my favorite platform as well. Just didn't expect it, that's all.
No need to read more into this than is there.
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No need to read more into this than is there.
Oh, but what fun is that if we don't?
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Ok, mods/admins. She will present as Antoinette Martinez or just Toni Martinez.
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Quote from: grislyatoms on July 07, 2018, 02:19:48 PM
Folks, would you mind too terribly if she joined our little group? Would love to have her around here.
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I don't understand. Why can't she just log in and boom! she's a member, no? She doesn't need our permission.
Terry, 230RN
Ok, mods/admins. She will present as Antoinette Martinez or just Toni Martinez.
I still don't understand why she can't just log in as a new member without going through any "permission process."
What am I missing here?
???
Terry
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Sorry! I recall a vetting process, but that was years ago. Who can remember?Probably even a different site. Lol. :old:
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I don't understand. Why can't she just log in and boom! she's a member, no? She doesn't need our permission.
Terry, 230RN
I still don't understand why she can't just log in as a new member without going through any "permission process."
What am I missing here?
???
Terry
Actually all new members have to be manually approved by a mod after they register. We started this some months ago to try and keep out the 50-100 spambots per day that sign up as members.
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Whatever. Been a long time since I signed up to APS.
Toni/Antoinette Martinez may perhaps request access. I am vetting her as a friend of mine, she's real.
If she joins.
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Might actually be next week that she signs up. She's up in Colorado, attending her son's wedding.