Post by: Manedwolf on September 04, 2007, 09:49:57 AM
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FAA: Adventurer Fossett's Plane Missing
By SCOTT SONNER 13 minutes ago
RENO, Nev. (AP) Teams searched rugged terrain Tuesday for a plane carrying aviation adventurer Steve Fossett, the first person to circle the world solo in a balloon, a day after the plane vanished, federal officials said.
Fossett took off in the single engine Bellanca at 8:45 a.m. Monday at a private airstrip on a ranch south of Smith Valley in western Nevada and didn't return as scheduled. A friend reported him missing, said Ian Gregor, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman in Maryland.
"The Civil Air Patrol is looking for him. One problem is he doesn't appear to have filed a flight plan," Gregor said.
The search for the millionaire entrepreneur was being coordinated by the Air Force's Rescue Coordination Center in Langley, Va., Gregor said.
"They are working on some leads, but they don't know where he is right now," Gregor said.
In 2002, Fossett became the first person to fly around the world alone in a balloon. In two weeks, his balloon flew 19,428.6 miles around the Southern Hemisphere. The record came after five previous attempts some of them spectacular and frightening failures.
Three years later, in March 2005, he became the first person to fly a plane solo around the world without refueling.
He and a co-pilot also claim to have set a world glider altitude record of 50,671 feet during a flight in August over the Andes Mountains.
Fossett, 63, of Beaver Creek, Colo., was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame in July. He told a crowd gathered at the Dayton Convention Center in Ohio that he will continue flying.
"I'm hoping you didn't give me this award because you think my career is complete, because I'm not done," Fossett said.
Fossett said he plans to go to Argentina in November in an effort to break a glider record.
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By SCOTT SONNER 13 minutes ago
RENO, Nev. (AP) Teams searched rugged terrain Tuesday for a plane carrying aviation adventurer Steve Fossett, the first person to circle the world solo in a balloon, a day after the plane vanished, federal officials said.
Fossett took off in the single engine Bellanca at 8:45 a.m. Monday at a private airstrip on a ranch south of Smith Valley in western Nevada and didn't return as scheduled. A friend reported him missing, said Ian Gregor, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman in Maryland.
"The Civil Air Patrol is looking for him. One problem is he doesn't appear to have filed a flight plan," Gregor said.
The search for the millionaire entrepreneur was being coordinated by the Air Force's Rescue Coordination Center in Langley, Va., Gregor said.
"They are working on some leads, but they don't know where he is right now," Gregor said.
In 2002, Fossett became the first person to fly around the world alone in a balloon. In two weeks, his balloon flew 19,428.6 miles around the Southern Hemisphere. The record came after five previous attempts some of them spectacular and frightening failures.
Three years later, in March 2005, he became the first person to fly a plane solo around the world without refueling.
He and a co-pilot also claim to have set a world glider altitude record of 50,671 feet during a flight in August over the Andes Mountains.
Fossett, 63, of Beaver Creek, Colo., was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame in July. He told a crowd gathered at the Dayton Convention Center in Ohio that he will continue flying.
"I'm hoping you didn't give me this award because you think my career is complete, because I'm not done," Fossett said.
Fossett said he plans to go to Argentina in November in an effort to break a glider record.
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Post by: 280plus on September 04, 2007, 10:17:45 AM
Post by: Fly320s on September 04, 2007, 11:33:46 AM
Maybe he just was planning on going out buzzing around the sky for two or three hours; I like doing that. When I fly for fun, I do my best to avoid all interaction with ATC. No flight plan, no radio. Why, it's almost like being free again.
Post by: 280plus on September 04, 2007, 12:54:04 PM
Post by: Brad Johnson on September 04, 2007, 12:58:24 PM
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Hmph, I did not know that. What happens when you crash and they can't find you?
They make a Movie of the Week about it. For Fossett, maybe a National Geographic Special, too.
Brad
Post by: Tallpine on September 04, 2007, 03:00:58 PM
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What happens when you crash and they can't find you?
Hey, coyotes gotta eat too
Post by: Fly320s on September 04, 2007, 03:01:36 PM
Hmph, I did not know that. What happens when you crash and they can't find you?
Exactly.
Personal responsibility can be a bitch, eh?
Post by: Barbara on September 04, 2007, 03:44:09 PM
Good for him. Gone the way he'd want to have, I bet. Definitely worse ways to die.
Post by: 280plus on September 04, 2007, 04:02:08 PM
Post by: Ben on September 04, 2007, 04:06:15 PM
Still too early to give up hope. He could just be in a gnarly area waiting for someone to spot him.
Post by: Fly320s on September 04, 2007, 05:11:51 PM
Anyway, if the ELT battery is dead, or the pilot didn't arm the switch, or if he crashed in steep terrain, then the ELT is about worthless.
Someone will find the wreckage eventually, if there is wreckage [insert conspiracy theory here].
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 04, 2007, 06:29:02 PM
Post by: Stickjockey on September 04, 2007, 06:44:41 PM
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I think once you crash, you don't really give a hoot if they find you or not.
Not entirely true. Way back in the mists of time, when I was still living with Ma 'n' Da on the ranch, we had the local SAR team show up with about three trucks and a bunch of guys asking to search the ol' homestead. Seems a plane had gone down near our home and they were out looking for it (Our place was on a ridge overlooking the Roseburg Municipal Airport). Sure said we, we'll even help out. So I got on the ol' four wheeler, a couple guys grabbed a fender, and off we went into the woods looking for this plane. We found it, all right- upside-down, nose buried in the base of a tree, both wings ripped off, Avgas everywhere- but no people. No DRT, no injured, nothing. WTH, we all said, looking at each other all puzzled-like. Then came the call: thanks for finding the plane, but call off the search for occupants. Seems they all got out, one had a bit of a bump on his head and maybe a broken arm, but they all walked out to the hospital which was at the bottom of the ridge just below our house.
Airplane crash survival can happen.
Post by: stevelyn on September 04, 2007, 06:55:18 PM
Hmph, I did not know that. What happens when you crash and they can't find you?
You die doing something you love.
Post by: DrAmazon on September 05, 2007, 02:35:23 AM
Post by: Vile Nylons on September 05, 2007, 03:53:42 AM
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I think once you crash, you don't really give a hoot if they find you or not.
Airplane crash survival can happen.
My wife, part of the local S & R, located a crash site a few years back and rescued two little girls riding backseat who survived the accident. The two adults up front did not. So there is hope.
Steve Fossett is the balloonist adventurer but has switched to aeronautics in the past few years trying to push the envelope and set "records".
Post by: Manedwolf on September 05, 2007, 04:06:18 AM
Is this the guy that kept trying to do stupid things like flying a balloon around the world?
Just like that silly guy who flew a Ryan monoplane across the atlantic to Paris, yes, or those two crazy brothers who tried to get a glorified kite with a motor airborne from some sand dunes.
I never call aviation pioneers "stupid"...it's better than people placidly watching reality TV or something.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 05, 2007, 05:23:11 AM
Not to get too technical, but IIRC you need a flight plan to enter ADIZ airspace.
Post by: Ben on September 05, 2007, 06:28:44 AM
Post by: mike on September 05, 2007, 06:34:07 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 05, 2007, 12:49:47 PM
Is this the guy that kept trying to do stupid things like flying a balloon around the world?
Just like that silly guy who flew a Ryan monoplane across the atlantic to Paris, yes, or those two crazy brothers who tried to get a glorified kite with a motor airborne from some sand dunes.
I never call aviation pioneers "stupid"...it's better than people placidly watching reality TV or something.
I'm sorry, I really can't give him that kind of credit. To me, he just seemed to be wasting millions of dollars on nothing. But you go one being optimistic, though.
Post by: Firethorn on September 05, 2007, 02:56:56 PM
I'm sorry, I really can't give him that kind of credit. To me, he just seemed to be wasting millions of dollars on nothing. But you go one being optimistic, though.
They're his millions to waste though.
I'd much rather he spent them on this than things like funding the brady bunch.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 05, 2007, 07:04:43 PM
ELTs are required for all US registered civil airplanes. They are required to be inspected every 12 calender months after the last inspection for proper installation, battery corrosion, and the presence of a sufficient signal radiated from its antenna.
The batteries must be replaced or recharged if the ELT has been in use for more than one cumulative hour, or when 50% of their useful life has expired. The ELT can also be tested on the ground the first five minutes past the hour, with a limit of 3 audible sweeps during the test.
An ELT is required even for antique aircraft without electrical systems, because it is independant of the electrical system.
My designated examiner scrutinized me during the oral exam about ELTs, too.
I'd rather have one of the newer 406mhz ELTs, though.
Flightplans
Flightplans are only useful if you are going from point A to B. They are no good if you are just going out for a local flight.
I don't generally file VFR flight plans. If I am going somewhere, I will try to get flight following if possible.
I don't want ATC watching over my shoulder like big brother all the time anyway. But there are definitely people who want that to happen. One is the Department of Homeland Security chief. He wants to have equipment put in every GA plane to identify the pilots and monitor their actions.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 05, 2007, 07:21:54 PM
I'm sorry, I really can't give him that kind of credit. To me, he just seemed to be wasting millions of dollars on nothing. But you go one being optimistic, though.
They're his millions to waste though.
I'd much rather he spent them on this than things like funding the brady bunch.
Well, duh.
Post by: HankB on September 06, 2007, 11:04:55 AM
An ELT is required even for antique aircraft without electrical systems . . .
Don't powered aircraft need an electrical system, to fire the spark plugs if nothing else? Anyway, I certainly don't have anything against Steve Fossett and don't wish him ill . . . but he did seem to be a bit of a reckless publicity hound. I guess he liked spending his own money so he could jump up and down shouting "Look at me! Look at me! See what I did!"
Post by: Fly320s on September 06, 2007, 11:05:56 AM
I'll see if I can find it.
edit. Here it is:
Termination of 121.5 MHz Beacons for Satellite Alerting is Coming Soon
Notice Number: NOTC0981
On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). This means that pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site.
Why is this happening?
Although lives have been saved by 121.5 MHz ELTs, the downside has been their propensity to generate false alerts (approximately 98 percent of all 121.5 MHz alerts are false), and their failure to provide rescue forces with timely and accurate crash location data. Both of which actually delay rescue efforts and have a direct effect on an individual's chance for survival. Rescue forces have to respond to all 121.5 MHz alerts to determine if they are real distress alerts or if they are being generated by an interferer, an inadvertent activation (by the owner) or equipment failure.
Is there an alternative?
Yes, the Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail.
Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.gov
Post by: Fly320s on September 06, 2007, 11:09:38 AM
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Don't powered aircraft need an electrical system, to fire the spark plugs if nothing else?
No. Airplanes use magnetos, not alternators, to power the spark plugs. That way, if all the electrical power fails, the engine will still be able to run.
Post by: Ben on September 06, 2007, 11:45:24 AM
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Speaking of ELTs, I received an email alert from the Federalis, uh Friendly Folks at the FAA, that said the 121.5mhz monitoring via satellite will be discontinued in 2008 or 2009 (I can't remember).
Sorry dude, my agency's fault. Though the 406s ARE a lot better. We fly with 406 Personal EPIRPs in our vests as well.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 12:00:10 PM
If you're operating in controlled airspace, but not Class B, C, D, here's what I'd suggest. And its only the 15 years of ATC background I have, which includes hundreds of crashes, Near midairs, etc etc. If you're operating near an uncontrolled airport that is under ATC jurisdiction, at least monitor the ATC freq. If you're in Airspace owned by a tower or TRACON, also consider at least monitoring ATC. I can't count the number of times a FLIB was in harms way, and if only I could have issued traffic to the little bastard. You might think its "big brother", but if you only knew the number of times some moron cut through a VFR transition at 200 knots, not talking to a soul, nearly killing 2 or 3 other aircraft.....
I guess its a matter of perspective. Obviously in areas that aren't busy, its the big sky/little plane theory. But if you're under/over/near busy airspace.....not talking to ATC might not be the safest thing you could do.....
PS: I've often had times where I start saying Oh *expletive deleted*it...then issuing traffic....and that guy was listening to me issue traffic to the airplane he's about to hit..and takes the appropriate action or makes contact with me for advisories. If I had a nickel for every FLIB that was saved by paying attention.....shhhiiittttttt I'd be rollin a fat whip with big reems.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 06, 2007, 12:17:16 PM
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And its only the 15 years of ATC background I have, which includes hundreds of crashes, Near midairs, etc etc.
Boy, you weren't very good at that, were you?
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 01:04:10 PM
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And its only the 15 years of ATC background I have, which includes hundreds of crashes, Near midairs, etc etc.
Boy, you weren't very good at that, were you?
Cute, but none of the crashes were my fault.....we won't discuss the close calls, though
From the "you can't make this *expletive deleted*it up" files....
"Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! this is Cessna 4569! We're on fire!"
"Cessna 4569, this is XXX approach, say position!"
"Approach, we're on the ground at airport XXX!"
"Cessna 4569, try getting out of the $%@!ing airplane!"
People do stupid *expletive deleted*it when they panic.....
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 06, 2007, 01:07:15 PM
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And its only the 15 years of ATC background I have, which includes hundreds of crashes, Near midairs, etc etc.
Boy, you weren't very good at that, were you?
Cute, but none of the crashes were my fault...
Suuuuuure.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 01:36:55 PM
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And its only the 15 years of ATC background I have, which includes hundreds of crashes, Near midairs, etc etc.
Boy, you weren't very good at that, were you?
Cute, but none of the crashes were my fault...
Suuuuuure.
Closest I came to crapping myself that I can recall right now in my mildly inebriated condition. KBRO (Brownsville International Arpt, TX)
Mexican registry twin engine sitting at the hold lines. COA B737 over the fence (200 yard final). Mexican registry twin (IIRC it was a Piper Chyenne) pulls out on the runway. COA was in a flare and probably didn't see the guy. I blurted out something about "Go around or you're gonna die!". It sounded horrible on the tapes.....I sounded like a 12 year old girl at a boy band concert. COA got the message and put the coals to it. Probably missed by 50' vertical. I drank myself to the point of full intoxication/throwing up in the lawn when I got home.....
Ow! My liver!
Post by: HankB on September 06, 2007, 02:04:21 PM
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Don't powered aircraft need an electrical system, to fire the spark plugs if nothing else?
No. Airplanes use magnetos, not alternators, to power the spark plugs. That way, if all the electrical power fails, the engine will still be able to run.
Post by: French G. on September 06, 2007, 02:37:03 PM
Post by: Tallpine on September 06, 2007, 03:09:06 PM
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Nice to know you can get an electrical spark with no electricity.
Ever thought about what makes a lawn mower, chainsaw, and old tractors run?
And lots of old planes had to be hand-propped to start. I knew a guy up in AK that carried a portable battery powered GPS in a T-craft for navigation, even though it wasn't exactly authorized. No radio either. This was way out in the western (lower Yukon R.) bush.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 06, 2007, 04:13:51 PM
I giggle like a schoolgirl everytime the "sparkbox" quits on a NASCAR vehicle
No, you're supposed to do that when they crash.
Post by: Hawkmoon on September 06, 2007, 06:33:56 PM
Post by: Boomhauer on September 06, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
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So, not to hijack this thread or anything, but ... is there any update about that Fossett guy? You remember him -- the subject of the thread?
Still missing. Last article I read said that in addition to the ELT, he had a watch with a built in beacon. Neither had been detected, though.
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Don't powered aircraft need an electrical system, to fire the spark plugs if nothing else?
No. Airplanes use magnetos, not alternators, to power the spark plugs. That way, if all the electrical power fails, the engine will still be able to run.
What I am referring to is to aircraft that have no electrical system- no starter, altenator/generator, lights, battery, etc. The ignition system is considered totally separate from the electrical system.
An aircraft w/o an electrical system, therefore, is not supposed to fly at night, in IFR, and since there is no transponder, not into controlled airspace without arranging it with the facility in charge of the airspace (IIRC).
Post by: Bogie on September 06, 2007, 08:10:27 PM
I got a buddy who's a FLIB...
Post by: Boomhauer on September 06, 2007, 08:16:29 PM
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Hmmm... Anyone ever make a diesel aircraft? Be interesting... Be one heckuva transmission, or some hyuge props..
Yep. There are two manufactorers right now- Theirlet and SMA. Theirlet (or however you spell it) is German, and SMA is French (IIRC).
I think both are FADEC controlled engines. They run on Jet-A and, other than a sometimes different cowling shape, you can't tell the difference between a diesel and a regular gasoline engine. Same size props as gas engines.
And Bogie, most of the aviation engines are direct drive, with some being geared. But most direct drive.
I believe that the Diamond DA-42 has diesels, and there is a package that was being tested and might have even been approved for the Cessna 182.
Post by: Ben on September 07, 2007, 06:04:53 AM
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Diamond DA-42 has diesels
Either the DA-20 or old Katana have diesel versions in Europe. I thought I read they were gonna get approved here, but haven't kept up.
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 07, 2007, 08:08:21 AM
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Hmmm... Anyone ever make a diesel aircraft?
Funny you should ask, Bogie! 6-cylinder, 12-piston opposed diesel aircraft engine:
It's the Junkers Jumo 205, used on Dornier Do18 and Do26 flying boats. The Jumo 207 was a supercharged and intercooled Jumo 205 variant, and was installed in Junkers Ju86 bombers beginning around 1940.
Post by: richyoung on September 07, 2007, 08:34:02 AM
Hmmm... Anyone ever make a diesel aircraft? Be interesting... Be one heckuva transmission, or some hyuge props...
I got a buddy who's a FLIB...
I got a buddy who's a FLIB...
Germans experimented with some diesel bombers in the Late Great Hate - they were less than smashing sucesses... JU86d perhaps...?
Post by: Tallpine on September 07, 2007, 12:50:02 PM
Post by: Creeping Incrementalism on September 07, 2007, 05:05:50 PM
"Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! this is Cessna 4569! We're on fire!"
"Cessna 4569, this is XXX approach, say position!"
"Approach, we're on the ground at airport XXX!"
"Cessna 4569, try getting out of the $%@!ing airplane!"
People do stupid *expletive deleted*it when they panic.....
Maybe they thought the fire trucks would get there quicker if they made a call on the radio before hopping out, and just happened to be on the approach frequency.
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Mexican registry twin (IIRC it was a Piper Chyenne) pulls out on the runway. COA was in a flare and probably didn't see the guy. I blurted out something about "Go around or you're gonna die!"
At an airport in Florida (might have been Daytona), a controller told me a Delta (MD-80 series plane probably) had to go around because an alligator was sunning itself on the runway, and I guessed no one in the tower noticed.
This same guy told me that there was this teenage makeout spot near the Daytona airport, and when they got bored at night, they would use the light gun to illuminate the vehicle. This guy was pretty goofy... during a tower tour from our big flight school at the airport, while he was working one of the radars, pulled his headset partway off and asked an aircraft to say speed and altitude three times in a row so just so we could hear what our radios sounded like from the other end, then asked us, "Anybody know that guy?"Quote
I can't count the number of times a FLIB was in harms way, and if only I could have issued traffic to the little bastard. You might think its "big brother", but if you only knew the number of times some moron cut through a VFR transition at 200 knots, not talking to a soul, nearly killing 2 or 3 other aircraft.....
I once had a... high-strung female controller ask me in an annoyed tone of voice if I could identify the N-number of a C-152 or something at my altitude about a thousand yards away. I thought it was kind of ridiculous to even ask, it was much too far to read... you ever seriously ask anyone to do that?
Post by: Boomhauer on September 07, 2007, 08:40:13 PM
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I once had a... high-strung female controller ask me in an annoyed tone of voice if I could identify the N-number of a C-152 or something at my altitude about a thousand yards away. I thought it was kind of ridiculous to even ask, it was much too far to read... you ever seriously ask anyone to do that?
If the controller is not a pilot, they may not understand a lot of stuff i.e.- what it is like on our end. The ones that are pilots are usually pretty good, though.
Oh, we did have a controller that was learning to fly at our airport (I fly at an uncontrolled airfield that has a controlled airfield 6 miles away). He would call up his coworkers and harass them, pretending he was a complete noob when it came to comms, and generally annoying them.
Post by: DustinD on September 07, 2007, 11:55:45 PM
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 08, 2007, 02:15:58 AM
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once had a... high-strung female controller ask me in an annoyed tone of voice if I could identify the N-number of a C-152 or something at my altitude about a thousand yards away. I thought it was kind of ridiculous to even ask, it was much too far to read... you ever seriously ask anyone to do that
Yes. A thousand yards on a radar scope doesn't look very far depending on the settings. Of course, usually if I'm having to ask for someone to read an N number, they've been much closer prior to my asking. Although, I've vectored 'regulars' onto class B violators to get N numbers. Had a small Experimental decide it was a good idea to orbit the departure end during a very, very busy time of day in SLC. A helpful local chased him off and got the tail number so we could file a report.