Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: dogmush on April 22, 2020, 01:56:03 PM

Title: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: dogmush on April 22, 2020, 01:56:03 PM
We've talked a lot on this forum about HF as a source for specialized tools one might not otherwise afford, and I myself am a patron, and like many of their things.

When I was posting in the Log Spliter thread that Ben started I mentioned Preditor engines (which have agood reputation for value) are a direct rip off of Honda engines.  So direct, in fact, that many Honda parts fit on the HF engine.  This is far from the only design or idea that manufacturers in China have flat stolen and sold back to us.  The electronics market is awash in copies.

In general, I like the ability to buy cheap stuff I want.  I'm looking at CNC's from china that I can *just* afford, whereas a Tormach or Haas is so far outside my hobby budget as to be a dream.  I'm also not against paying for the amount of quality you need.  Wrenches, for example, are pretty much open source at this point.  I use a 39mm wrench like once every 3 years.  I don't need a Sanp-On for that.  I'm glad that the HF wrench exists so I can have that tool in my box when I need it, without sinking $100 into it.  Things like my collet set are another example.  Yes, they have more runout than a nice American made set, but they meet my needs, and I could afford them. The R8 Taper is an industry standard, so it's not exactly stolen.

Thinking about those engines during my run this evening really made me ponder though.  What with world events recently I think I am a LOT less likely to just wink and look away from straight up stolen IP making China money than I was this time last year.  Even if it means I get less stuff, or less capable stuff.  I'm not saying "Only Buy American!"  but I'm thinking there should be a difference in a cheap widget that is a standard design, and straight up stolen designs, or cirucits and software.

Just thinking out loud a little bit, but I 'm pretty sure my "put up with China because I want cheap stuff" meter dropped quite a few notches this year.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: MechAg94 on April 22, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
I think it is something I will pay more attention to and try to make changes on if I can.  I bought a couple bandanas yesterday just to use as a makeshift mask occasionally.  Made in China of course.  

I heard someone say Tyson chicken was either owned by Chinese interests or did some of its meat processing in China.  That didn't make much sense to me.  Do any of you know about that?
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 22, 2020, 02:29:27 PM
I think it is something I will pay more attention to and try to make changes on if I can.  

Same here. I don't know how much Chinese I can cut out of my consumption, but I may start to pay more attention to it.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Ben on April 22, 2020, 02:35:58 PM
I think about it too. It's a hard choice because things like the Predator engines and Icon tools at HF are pretty darn good quality. Plus, otherwise, how the *expletive deleted*ck do I avoid Chinese stuff when every damn American company uses Chinese parts and labor? I mean, even stuff like "made in the USA" Carhartt has Chinese origins for some of their lines.

I'd be happy to pay a little more for US, or at least non-Chinese goods, but it's difficult to do. Then there is stuff like Dogmush mentioned. I know nothing about CNC machines, but I reckon they are a good example. If something expensive costs 50% more made in the USA, sending it even more out of my price range, do I do without, or go into debt?
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: dogmush on April 22, 2020, 02:45:49 PM
Ben I did some googling on log splitters before replying to your thread.

HF:  Chinese, and stolen engine designs: $800
TSC: Chinese, but kholer engine (engine is probably crappier than HF, but not stolen)$1100
Northstar: "Assembled" in the US, real Honda engine $1500
Iron and Oak brand: Built in the US, by US company, Honda Engine: $2900


That's a hell of a price delta, and why I didn't mention it in that thread.  At that level for a lot of folks it'll be "use the one with the stolen design or split by hand".

Not any real good answers, just pondering.  THe old adage about how much it's worth to look yourself in the mirror comes to mind.

Red Dot sights are the other obvious place that all of us are aware of.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on April 22, 2020, 02:54:45 PM
I've been fairly hardcore anti- Made in China particularly for stuff that used to be made in USA. For stuff that has generally been made overseas anyway I wasn't quite as particular. I've got some camera flash gear that is reverse engineered from Canon gear that is actually pretty good at less than a quarter of the Canon price as well as some China made manual speed lights that are darn good. I don't think I'll even consider such any longer.

When I bought my tractor 9 years ago I learned that at the time there were no small tractors being built in the US. I had a choice of US brands made in China, Japanese brands made in China or Chinese brands made in Malaysia.
I bought a Kioti, made in South Korea.

It's time to buy American when possible even if it costs a little extra.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Ben on April 22, 2020, 03:03:16 PM
Ben I did some googling on log splitters before replying to your thread.

HF:  Chinese, and stolen engine designs: $800
TSC: Chinese, but kholer engine (engine is probably crappier than HF, but not stolen)$1100
Northstar: "Assembled" in the US, real Honda engine $1500
Iron and Oak brand: Built in the US, by US company, Honda Engine: $2900


That's a hell of a price delta, and why I didn't mention it in that thread.  At that level for a lot of folks it'll be "use the one with the stolen design or split by hand".

Not any real good answers, just pondering.  THe old adage about how much it's worth to look yourself in the mirror comes to mind.

Red Dot sights are the other obvious place that all of us are aware of.

Good examples on your log splitter research. I absolutely can't afford the $2900 one. Or rather, I can afford it, but it's just not cost-effective for me. At nearly $2000 more, it would make me factor in my dirt cheap electricity and just go without the wood stove, even though the heat pump always seems to pump out "cool" hot air. I might then only collect enough wood to burn for ambience or emergency use, and just split by hand until I get too old for it (which seems to be fast approaching).
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: makattak on April 22, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
I've been a occasional buyer at Harbor Freight. I will occasionally shop there still, if necessary, but I, too, am making a point of not buying from China.

I just pulled out my non-Harbor Freight generator, a Champion one. "Designed and Engineered in the USA and North America!" Oh look, made in China.

I was recently looking for a new guitar and amp. I picked a guitar made in Korea (from an American Company.) The company also has lines made in the USA (more expensive than I need for at least the foreseeable future), Japan (more expensive than I need for at least the foreseeable future- it's also top of the line, just different lines), and China.

I specifically avoided the Chinese made lines.

Looking at Amps, I looked at a lot of "American" companies... who make all their amps in China. It looks like I'll be going with a "Japanese" amp, made in Malaysia.

I'm not going to ONLY buy American, but I am going to stop buying China, even if it's from an "American" company.

I've also noticed it's not easy to determine where things are made. It's possible and as you can tell, I've done it, but it's not out there on their websites.

I'm going to do the same for all my purchases, where possible. If it costs me 50% more, so be it. But some products cannot be had aside from Chinese-made because they have driven out all competitors with anti-competitive practices that would get a private company sued. (Oh, and slave labor. I don't think a private company would get away with that, either.)

Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: cordex on April 22, 2020, 04:14:58 PM
I bought a Kioti, made in South Korea.
My friend bought one of those and had the engine crap out in under a year.  The dealership wanted something absurd to import a new engine.  I tried to get him to take a crack at fixing it himself, but he was done with the whole thing and sold it as was.

As far as cheap Chinese crap tools, and knockoff designs, I find that as I age I'm looking more toward quality and less toward quantity.  I think that is in part because I have more money now than when I was first buying tools, and in part because I've used enough crap tools for enough years to realize that there is actually (often) a difference.  To a point, anyway.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Kingcreek on April 22, 2020, 04:20:51 PM
I have bought a few thinks at HF but I try not to most of the time.
My heavy duty 1/2" impact driver needed impact sockets. Cheapest I could find for a set was $80 for a cheap farm store imported set. Until I went to HF and got a decent quality set of 37 impact sockets and extensions for $29 minus 20% off with one of those not very rare coupons. Yesterday I bought 1 socket at the farm store, in a size not in my set... $8.49... for an impact socket made in USA.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Ben on April 22, 2020, 04:22:59 PM

I bought a Kioti, made in South Korea.

I went with a South Korean LS. The small (and maybe big?) JDs are all made in China now. I'll take Korean quality over Chinese any day. The one thing you lose is the JD dealer network, but there's always mail order. The LS actually runs very well, the only issue being the damn TierIV pollution crap, which is a problem with everyone now. Mine sets off the engine lights and alarms every time it goes into regen. My tractor guy just tells me to ignore it, which seems to work.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Boomhauer on April 22, 2020, 04:25:49 PM
My main expenses these days are tools. I try to buy Taiwan when I can, Chinese when I can’t. American made is so far out of realism price wise (I’m at work to make money not spend money). Sure there is some US stuff on the secondary market but what I need tends to be a lot more sparse (specialty tools for my industry). Chinese quality has finally come up to acceptable levels it’s hard to pass the savings up.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Boomhauer on April 22, 2020, 04:35:48 PM
I went with a South Korean LS. The small (and maybe big?) JDs are all made in China now. I'll take Korean quality over Chinese any day. The one thing you lose is the JD dealer network, but there's always mail order. The LS actually runs very well, the only issue being the damn TierIV pollution crap, which is a problem with everyone now. Mine sets off the engine lights and alarms every time it goes into regen. My tractor guy just tells me to ignore it, which seems to work.

I will caution you that if the ECMs are set up the way they are supposed to be some faults eventually trigger derates to make it impossible to use the tractor until fixed
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on April 22, 2020, 04:46:58 PM
China backlash stopped me today from buying a cheapie little bivvy hammock for backpacking and moto camping.

My brother linked it on FB, and while it looked intriguing and my impulse buy button might have gone off under other circumstances, I abstained purely because of my regard for Chinese imports in light of this situation.  

As for HF stuff... I have a few things from them.  I've been disappointed by a good bit of it though.  Their clamps and "vice grips" are utter shyt.  Each of my vehicles has a cheap set of HF wrenches in a toolkit put together for it, though I don't trust their socket wrenches and go Stanley or something of that tier for the vehicle kit.  Probably still made in China, just not from one of those Amazon vendors with the product name in all caps and changes vendor names each month while selling the same IP cloning crap.  My good ratchets for home use are Taiwanese.  I like buying Taiwanese.  It tweaks the ChiComs.  And it tends to be pretty darn good stuff.

Watching AvE, my power tool purchases have steered more towards Bosch and other European brands and away from DeWalt or Milwaukee, who heavily favor China for production.

This last fall, I bought a Husqvarna FE 250 dual sport over other potential offerings.  KTM's are starting to be made in China and China of course released a KTM clone (GPX 250) the second they got their hands on KTM blueprints.  Lots of HondaYamaSaki stuff is either fully built in China or componentry is and then assembled elsewhere.  Huskies are made in Sweden.  I was considering a Beta, but evidently it's Chinese investors that bought the old Beta brand and tooling in Italy.  Unsure how much of the bike is Italian versus Chinese.  Didn't want to find out.

I'm watching BMW, Triumph, and others closely.  Triumph has factories in India and Thailand and Brazil.  But some of their bikes are still Brit-built (not that that's much of a recommendation).  Harley Davidson has spun up an Indian factory in the last few years.  Royal Enfield is in India.  Watching to see who goes into China, because I've put a lot of rough miles on my 2013 Triumph Tiger.  Depending on how it behaves over the next year, I may replace it with a new bike.  But that won't be Chinese.  I trust it right now for a ride to the Arctic, but unsure if I will trust it next year for the same ride now that I'm postponing it.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Ben on April 22, 2020, 04:51:07 PM
I will caution you that if the ECMs are set up the way they are supposed to be some faults eventually trigger derates to make it impossible to use the tractor until fixed

Good to know. Mine seem to occur because the DPF sometimes "overfills" and doesn't turn on when it's supposed to. I forget the percentages, but let's say it's supposed to turn on at 100% (or every 50 hours)  but sometimes doesn't do it until 150%, and it goes into inhibited mode for like five minutes, then all the lights go off except the "normal regen" lights, and all is good again, and 20 minutes later, regen is done.

It's been better since I started doing everything at over 2000RPM. Sometimes just getting to where I was going, I was driving at 1500RPM, and I guess that helped fill the thing up. There was a bunch of info on the LS forums about it.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: charby on April 22, 2020, 06:07:47 PM
I think it is something I will pay more attention to and try to make changes on if I can.  I bought a couple bandanas yesterday just to use as a makeshift mask occasionally.  Made in China of course.  

I heard someone say Tyson chicken was either owned by Chinese interests or did some of its meat processing in China.  That didn't make much sense to me.  Do any of you know about that?

Smithfield is Chinese owned, I think the only pork we'd get that was handled in china would be shelf stable stuff. I don't see any savings in taking fresh pork to china and having fresh pork sent back.

Packers have done a great job in taking any skill out of butchering at the retail location with going to boxed meat instead of carcasses going being shipped out. Unions were pushed out in the 70s when the old verticle packing houses were obsolete and the new horizontal plants opened up. Most skilled labor has been eliminated in the packing plants. The guy who did this all spent a lot years in prison because how he broke all the unions. Google Currier J. Holman if your interested.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: lupinus on April 22, 2020, 07:28:14 PM
Also I've noticed that a lot of brands and items are advertising that nice big flag logo. But when you look it's not made in the US, it's "assembled" in the US from "global parts". Which hey it's nice that you paid someone to do (probably) the bare minimum for that designation, but it's still not made in the US when the majority of the manufacturing was done in China and you slapped a part or two together to make the finished unit.

Also part of the problem is how much of the tooling just isn't here any more to manufacture these things. A lot of it ended up in China or elsewhere when production was moved and brands sold off.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on April 22, 2020, 09:38:53 PM
I went with a South Korean LS. The small (and maybe big?) JDs are all made in China now. I'll take Korean quality over Chinese any day. The one thing you lose is the JD dealer network, but there's always mail order. The LS actually runs very well, the only issue being the damn TierIV pollution crap, which is a problem with everyone now. Mine sets off the engine lights and alarms every time it goes into regen. My tractor guy just tells me to ignore it, which seems to work.


Mine has been almost flawless. I took delivery January 2011, it's a 2010 model so none of the BS TierIV BS. The only mechanical issue I've had was a loose bolt in the joystick control for the front end loader, the dealer handed me a complete joystick mechanism when I stopped in and talked to hem about it. I didn't even use it yet, I found the loose bolt when I took it apart to fix it. I had to put a new battery in it last Summer. Other than routine maintenance that's it.
I don't use it too hard, it's only a 22hp (gross) (17.1 hp @ PTO) tractor. It competently pulls a 50" PTO tiller through my heavy clay soil. The FE loader is rated for 1500# breakout and 1000# full lift. It took me about 15 minutes of use once it was delivered to start wondering how the hell I ever lived without a FE loader.


Quote
My friend bought one of those and had the engine crap out in under a year.  The dealership wanted something absurd to import a new engine.  I tried to get him to take a crack at fixing it himself, but he was done with the whole thing and sold it as was.

The engine should have been still in warranty if it was less than a year old.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: tokugawa on April 22, 2020, 11:08:49 PM
Hmmm.  Now multiply this thread by a few Billion people pissed off at China and one would say they have a severe problem coming up.

 A lot of the HF hand tools, wrenches, sockets etc are Taiwan made and pretty good.
 I just bought a set of ER 25 collets, imported by a US firm, but made in Taiwan- the guy laughed when I told him I was avoiding chicom crap. Did not use such complimentary terms...
Ad says they will hold .0003" for runout.
 Some of the stuff from India seems really good, some is utter crap.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: HankB on April 23, 2020, 07:47:27 AM
Enough with the big ticket items like tractors and log splitters.

WHERE can I get a damn TOASTER that's not made in China?

Edited to add:

Found one Made in USA.

(https://i2.wp.com/buyingamericanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-05-20_Holman-Toastmaster-TP409.png?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1)

https://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/toastmaster%C2%AE-tp409-120v-standard-4-slice-pop-up-bread-toaster-370530

The Toastmaster TP409, a 4-slice toaster with a list price of $1429, currently available at a discounted price of $785.95
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: bedlamite on April 23, 2020, 07:56:07 AM
Enough with the big ticket items like tractors and log splitters.

WHERE can I get a damn TOASTER that's not made in China?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAbz9mfaj0
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Pb on April 23, 2020, 11:20:45 AM
Enough with the big ticket items like tractors and log splitters.

WHERE can I get a damn TOASTER that's not made in China?

Edited to add:

Found one Made in USA.

(https://i2.wp.com/buyingamericanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-05-20_Holman-Toastmaster-TP409.png?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1)

https://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/toastmaster%C2%AE-tp409-120v-standard-4-slice-pop-up-bread-toaster-370530

The Toastmaster TP409, a 4-slice toaster with a list price of $1429, currently available at a discounted price of $785.95

Look in the thrift stores... you may be able to find some old American made appliances that are superior to Chinese garbage.  That's how we replaced our toaster over.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Ben on April 23, 2020, 11:31:25 AM
So just curious, using the example with prices that Dogmush already provided above, how far would you go to avoid China? $1000 vs $2900 is a significant amount. We probably need to look at production costs in the US. Certainly we can call out child and near-slave labor in China regarding the cheap prices, but it seems in fairness we should also look at why US prices are so much more.

Is that $2900 log splitter really worth that, and is the quality that much better? Or are we paying for unions, government regulations and red tape, business taxes, etc.? Again, using the log splitter example, if we were to look at the exact same specs, one built in China and one built in the US, personally, I would be happy paying say, $1500 for a US one versus $1000 for a Chinese one. But paying nearly three times more on a big ticket item like that? I don't think we can lay all the blame on Chinese labor for the cost delta, and I would be hard-pressed to call a guy out for getting the Chinese one instead. $2000 pays for a lot of food, gas, insurance, property taxes, etc.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: MillCreek on April 23, 2020, 12:00:46 PM
Somewhat related, but I roast my own coffee.  I buy green coffee beans from all over the world.  Hawaii makes a big deal about their Kona coffee.  Buying Kona green beans generally runs $ 25-35 per pound.  I can buy the finest coffee from Africa, Asia and Central America for $ 5-8 per pound from my typical vendors.  The Kona coffee is not 300-400% better than my favorites from Ethiopia or Sumatra.  Marketing mystique aside, what you are paying for from Kona is the US labor and regulatory costs, as opposed to those same costs from third-world nations in Africa or Asia.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: makattak on April 23, 2020, 12:06:44 PM
Somewhat related, but I roast my own coffee.  I buy green coffee beans from all over the world.  Hawaii makes a big deal about their Kona coffee.  Buying Kona green beans generally runs $ 25-35 per pound.  I can buy the finest coffee from Africa, Asia and Central America for $ 5-8 per pound from my typical vendors.  The Kona coffee is not 300-400% better than my favorites from Ethiopia or Sumatra.  Marketing mystique aside, what you are paying for from Kona is the US labor and regulatory costs, as opposed to those same costs from third-world nations in Africa or Asia.

I just wanted to highlight that because this is a significant issue.

We put all kinds of regulations on AMERICAN workers because the left is so concerned about safety and the environment... and then ship those jobs off to somewhere else that will be far more dangerous to the workers and the environment than the same job, even without the onerous U.S. regulations, would be in the U.S.

But, like electric cars, the messy parts happen somewhere else, so the liberals are happy that they "cared."

(Related: it's similar to how illegals are allowed to just ignore regulations on housing, transportation, etc... that Americans are required to follow.)
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: zahc on April 23, 2020, 12:30:52 PM
American companies also will not compete on price. It is not in the DNA.

I buy a lot of low-spec machine tooling. It's universally from the China. I would buy the same low-spec tooling from America, but nobody in America makes it. Because by American standards it's "junk". While for my purposes a $10 collet with 0.001" of run-out is perfectly fine, America only makes $50 collets with 0.0001" of run-out. I would buy the 0.001" collet from America for $20 but nobody makes it.

It's the usual chicken and egg problem. Instead of pointing fingers at "chinese junk" which nevertheless sells, we need to also admit that American manufacturing is not competitive in the low-end sectors, and think about why that is. It's well and good to feel morally superior not to make "inferior" products, but if China is out-competing at the low end it's a matter of time until they are out completing on the high end too. Why CAN'T America make cheap junk tooling better than China? The reasons are complicated, but fundamentally the same reasons America will fail to be competitive everywhere else eventually, so it's important not to just dismiss American failure as sour grapes.

Aloris tool-posts are like $1000. Chinese tool posts are like $200. It's very clear upon inspection that the Chinese tool-post is cheaper not just because of macroeconomic or regulatory advantages, but mostly because an insane amount of corners are cut... corners that cut cost dramatically, while still basically getting the job done. A design which requires less machining, looser tolerances, un-hardened surfaces, random steel composed of whatever they threw in the melting pot. Aloris could cut those same corners and release a COMPETITIVE low-spec tool post. It might be slightly more expensive than the Chinese version, but possibly not. I work in manufacturing, and I have great faith in American manufacturing ability and ingenuity. I honestly think America could do it both better AND cheaper; in other words even $200 is over-charging for what you get with the Chinese tool post. But they refuse to do it. So the Chinese sell 50 cheap tool posts on eBay for every good tool post that Aloris sells. You can be proud of this, but I'm more afraid than proud.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: dogmush on April 24, 2020, 12:58:10 PM
Further Data Points:

I need new cordless tools, so I have been doing some shopping. This is a market where it's really hard to figure out where things are made.

Dewalt has (apparanttly) a line of tools that is "Made in the USA from Global Materials".  Not all of their cordless tools, but a decent selection.  They apparantlly have 7 facilities in the US making cordless tools.  A factory tour clip can be seen here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzxT9pVniPY  It apparanttly varies from final assembly (as is often the case in other "Made in the US" stuff) to winding armatures and building gearboxes in some facilities.

The US range of tools is here: https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa

It's not a perfect solution, but it's better then assembled in Asia, and it shows that companies might indeed respond to market pressure.

On Amazon, it seems like the tools are pretty similar costs regardless of where they are mde/assembled.

Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: tokugawa on April 24, 2020, 05:45:40 PM
American companies also will not compete on price. It is not in the DNA.

I buy a lot of low-spec machine tooling. It's universally from the China. I would buy the same low-spec tooling from America, but nobody in America makes it. Because by American standards it's "junk". While for my purposes a $10 collet with 0.001" of run-out is perfectly fine, America only makes $50 collets with 0.0001" of run-out. I would buy the 0.001" collet from America for $20 but nobody makes it.

It's the usual chicken and egg problem. Instead of pointing fingers at "chinese junk" which nevertheless sells, we need to also admit that American manufacturing is not competitive in the low-end sectors, and think about why that is. It's well and good to feel morally superior not to make "inferior" products, but if China is out-competing at the low end it's a matter of time until they are out completing on the high end too. Why CAN'T America make cheap junk tooling better than China? The reasons are complicated, but fundamentally the same reasons America will fail to be competitive everywhere else eventually, so it's important not to just dismiss American failure as sour grapes.

Aloris tool-posts are like $1000. Chinese tool posts are like $200. It's very clear upon inspection that the Chinese tool-post is cheaper not just because of macroeconomic or regulatory advantages, but mostly because an insane amount of corners are cut... corners that cut cost dramatically, while still basically getting the job done. A design which requires less machining, looser tolerances, un-hardened surfaces, random steel composed of whatever they threw in the melting pot. Aloris could cut those same corners and release a COMPETITIVE low-spec tool post. It might be slightly more expensive than the Chinese version, but possibly not. I work in manufacturing, and I have great faith in American manufacturing ability and ingenuity. I honestly think America could do it both better AND cheaper; in other words even $200 is over-charging for what you get with the Chinese tool post. But they refuse to do it. So the Chinese sell 50 cheap tool posts on eBay for every good tool post that Aloris sells. You can be proud of this, but I'm more afraid than proud.

 Just for interest I looked around at collets on line.  All ER 25 1/2" .  It would be interesting to see how accurate they actually are. Like you, I seek a middle ground- and the law of diminishing returns applies.
 

 ETM      50.00    USA?
 Hardinge $36.00  USA?
 Maritool    $19.00 Taiwan
 Shark Tools  19.00 Taiwan
 Shars Tegara 16.50 Taiwan
 Grizzly     $9.00   No country of origin but 99.99 sure China.

 

Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: WLJ on July 12, 2021, 08:40:52 PM
Want to buy some a Harbor Freight "Toolmans Kit"?
Any of that stuff look familiar? It's the stuff they give you for free.

https://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/d/louisville-toolmans-kit/7338103089.html
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Nick1911 on July 13, 2021, 12:01:40 PM
I don't know what to do with any of it, really.

I buy things directly from china.  Like, the money is directly going to some account that's all spelled with Chinese characters.  In a global economic system that's built in such a way that it's not only slightly, but massively, economically favorable to do so, I'm not going to pay severe premiums to avoid my money going overseas.  Financially penalizing myself won't fix this problem. 

American companies agree, and are more then happy to outsource; then attempting arbitrage between the positions of "We can make it cheap over there" and "We can charge big bucks in the US, we're an American company!" 

One of the things that really annoys me is prominent "Buy local, Support local businesses!" outfits that are actually just selling stuff made overseas.  If you're peddling crap that's from overseas anyway, you're just middle, and I have no reservations about sidestepping your cut and going directly to overseas vendors.

I don't love that China rips off IP.  That's not really cool, but I also have very little respect for the copyright laws of our country, which have been thoroughly corrupted by the corporate influence.  (Thanks Disney!)

Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: zxcvbob on July 13, 2021, 02:43:34 PM
Want to buy some a Harbor Freight "Toolmans Kit"?
Any of that stuff look familiar? It's the stuff they give you for free.

https://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/d/louisville-toolmans-kit/7338103089.html

I'll pass.  But I really *like* that specific set of cheap screwdrivers.  They work great.  I'll buy more anytime I'm at HF and they are on sale for $2.99.  I also have several of that tape measure with no complaints. 

I bought some much fancier and somewhat more expensive screwdrivers there that suck (the flat heads are okay but Phillips are cut too blunt and don't fit anything)
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: JTHunter on July 13, 2021, 05:48:12 PM
Both my car and my truck have those black & blue oval flashlights in the glove box.  The fact that they have a decent magnet on the back lets me put it under the hood to light the engine compartment or the trunk/tailgate so an oncoming car will see me.  It also has a decent swivel hook for other uses (camping, fishing).
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: Bogie on July 13, 2021, 10:38:21 PM
China Fright's stuff has been getting a LOT better since they started executing plant managers whose goods flunked Quality...
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: WLJ on July 13, 2021, 10:48:59 PM
China Fright's stuff has been getting a LOT better since they started executing plant managers whose goods flunked Quality...

You mean since they died of COVID right?
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: French G. on July 13, 2021, 11:12:37 PM
I am trying to buy as little China as possible. Taiwan is A-ok. I have directly lost out to China because I built things sold to China and then crickets on future sales or spare parts for years. They reverse engineer what should have been millions more in sales. I try hard not to consume from large corps that kiss China’s ass too.  No Nike, no Disney. Two categories I buy zero China are food and gun parts.
Title: Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
Post by: kgbsquirrel on July 14, 2021, 12:15:19 AM
I am trying to buy as little China as possible. Taiwan is A-ok. I have directly lost out to China because I built things sold to China and then crickets on future sales or spare parts for years. They reverse engineer what should have been millions more in sales. I try hard not to consume from large corps that kiss China’s ass too.  No Nike, no Disney. Two categories I buy zero China are food and gun parts.

Sounds like there's a market not so much for just buy american, but instead is simply buy not-china.

No-CCP-Products-Mart.

Stuff for sale from anywhere in the world, except the PRC.