Where do you place the odds of a 50 state sweep by Trump?

[Perd Hapley]

"Yeah but he inherited most of the party clowns"

Every president inherits party clowns.

Reagan and Bush II never held Federal office, inherited their party clowns, and did one hell of a lot better job of working with them than the current President has.

Granted, there were some in the party who were not going to work with him from the get go, but I still say that a lot of that stems from his actions on the campaign trail. He was laying the groundwork for being a fairly despicable person even then and people were distancing themselves from him.

So yeah, the buck stops there, Fistful, because he IS the buck. A leader is supposed to lead, and part of that means not actively going to war with the people in your party over what are often the damned stupidest things, doing it VERY publicly and doing it again and again.

Once again, his personality is completely unsuited to being president. Corporate leader yes. But the presidency isn't a corporation. You don't get to dictate.

Both Trump and the rest of the party leadership should be blamed for what they did wrong, respectively. With all due respect to Harry Truman's pet phrase, it doesn't really change the facts of who did what, or what they should have done better.

[WLJ]

"Yeah but he inherited most of the party clowns"

Every president inherits party clowns.

Didn't say otherwise. Only so much, if anything, Trump could have done in 2 years, actually far less taking campaigning in account, in straightening them out especially with the MSM vilifying everything he and they said or did.

[Ron]

Bush II not only inherited clowns he was on board the clown train with them.


The Bush vision and idea of The United States is somewhat at odds with the constituency that elected them.

[MechAg94]

The "buck stops here" is just recognition that most people will blame the guy at the top regardless of circumstances.  It is just recognition of human nature and leadership.  IMO, people should be able to go further than that when discussing it in any detail.  Just because Trump is the easy/convenient target doesn't mean everyone should keep shooting at it.  

1.  Trump would not have gotten elected were he not the person he was.  A "dignified leader" type person would have lost.  Trump's personality had the media chasing his tail and giving him free publicity.  I supported Cruz, but I don't think he would have pulled it off.   I am curious what the deep state people would have done differently to attack Cruz.    

2.  I don't know what Trump himself could have done differently in the first two years other than maybe choosing someone other than Sessions as AG.  Most of what I have heard is hindsight.  Considering a lot of people in D.C. believed all the Russia-gate nonsense, some of what is recommended would have played into that lie.  There were a LOT of good things that happened in that first couple years.  

3.  IMO, Trump's twitter account and personality played a big part in keeping the media off balance in the first year or two.  Without it, I think we would have seen something different.  I recall how much the media would push around Bush II by picking a negative story and pushing it constantly for weeks.  Trump had the media constantly reporting on his tweets and other comments.  They could not stay with a consistent message.  I think people underestimate the value of that in today's political environment.  

4.  Paul Ryan is the main one in Congress who had the ability to change the mid-terms.  You might include McCain in that since he stopped the bill to kill Obamacare.  Lost opportunities everytime they passed another spending resolution in the House.  I think they could have slipped in all sorts of legislation.  He got the tax cuts passed which was a big win.  

5.  It is common for Presidents to lose ground in mid-term elections.  There is no guarantee anything Trump did differently would have changed that.  

6.  I am thankful we had leadership in the Senate that focused heavily on approving judicial appointments.  I think that will pay dividends for years to come.  I really hope Trump can continue with that.

[dogmush]

The biggest thing I want to see is that riots and violence are a BIG LOSER at the ballot box.  If Democrats win, I fear it will just promote the idea that chaos and rioting is the way to push around the electorate and we will see that tactic repeated over and over again in the future.  If it loses big enough, they won't repeat it for a long while. 

Well if they win, that will definitely be the lesson I take from it.

[K Frame]

"The "buck stops here" is just recognition that most people will blame the guy at the top regardless of circumstances."

Incorrect. Harry Truman placed that sign as recognition that no matter what happened, HE was the President, and was responsible as HMFIC.

Truman didn't blame his underlings. He didn't go on endless tirades about them. He took responsibility, no matter what happened.


" Trump would not have gotten elected were he not the person he was.  A "dignified leader" type person would have lost."

I think that's a stretch considering just how reviled Hillary was, and still is, on the right.



"Paul Ryan is the main one in Congress who had the ability to change the mid-terms.  You might include McCain in that since he stopped the bill to kill Obamacare.  Lost opportunities everytime they passed another spending resolution in the House.  I think they could have slipped in all sorts of legislation.  He got the tax cuts passed which was a big win."

I never said that Trump was responsible for everything that went wrong. But he's certainly a core contributor. And McCain might have been a lot more willing to play ball had not Trump been such and out and out prick on the campaign trail. That relationship was dead in the water from the very first moment Trump opened his mouth about McCain; I have NO doubt that part of that vote was an iron gauntleted thumb right in the president's eye.

Please note that I NEVER have said, or even inferred, that Trump has been a total failure as a President. But had he handled himself a bit differently early on he could have been a LOT more successful.

[K Frame]

"Bush II not only inherited clowns he was on board the clown train with them."

At least he was on the train.

Half the time the current president isn't even on the same damned railroad.

[WLJ]

"Bush II not only inherited clowns he was on board the clown train with them."

At least he was on the train.

Half the time the current president isn't even on the same damned railroad.

Clown train tracks tend to run in circles

[K Frame]

Ultimately, I do have to say this...

The Republican Party in this country hasn't had a clearly defined and clearly orchestrated path forward since Regan left office, and its only real progress has been to tilt further and further left, which is the new center, apparently.

[Perd Hapley]

"The "buck stops here" is just recognition that most people will blame the guy at the top regardless of circumstances."

Incorrect. Harry Truman placed that sign as recognition that no matter what happened, HE was the President, and was responsible as HMFIC.

Truman didn't blame his underlings. He didn't go on endless tirades about them. He took responsibility, no matter what happened.

I think we're talking about two different problems.

Yes, Trump should have run a more unified White House, with less reality show drama. A lot of his public kvetching about the people he chose to work with was embarrassing and disloyal and unprofessional and stupid.

On the other hand, the Republicans that were running both houses of Congress, and the NeverTrump tools that should have come alongside their president by joining his administration, or by providing honest, sane commentary from their posts in the media; failed the party and the nation. The former should have done more to supply the defects in Trump's leadership by working with him to pass more and better legislation, or at least tried, so that voters could see they had our backs. The latter chose to weaken their party and their country by magnifying Trump's flaws, both those real and those imagined.

[MechAg94]

"The "buck stops here" is just recognition that most people will blame the guy at the top regardless of circumstances."

Incorrect. Harry Truman placed that sign as recognition that no matter what happened, HE was the President, and was responsible as HMFIC.

Truman didn't blame his underlings. He didn't go on endless tirades about them. He took responsibility, no matter what happened.

So you pretty much agree with me.  I wasn't saying Truman was wrong.  I just think we can take our discussion further than that.

[K Frame]

So you pretty much agree with me.  I wasn't saying Truman was wrong.  I just think we can take our discussion further than that.

Which means you pretty much agree with me that Trump is an atrocious person/leader. In the business world that style of leadership is termed toxic.

Truman took responsibility, Trump rarely does.

Truman took responsibility when things went badly, Trump rarely does.

Truman didn't provide a continuous quasi-liturgy of how everyone else has/is/will fail him personally, Trump does.

[WLJ]

Trump is a showman and as a showman he knows how to distract the press in much the same way as a magician uses one hand to distract your attention from what the other hand is doing. Think how many court appointments he's done with one hand while the media is kept busy barking trying to get the treat from the other hand.

Not saying I agree with all of it what that's who he is and how he works.

[MechAg94]

" Trump would not have gotten elected were he not the person he was.  A "dignified leader" type person would have lost."

I think that's a stretch considering just how reviled Hillary was, and still is, on the right.



"Paul Ryan is the main one in Congress who had the ability to change the mid-terms.  You might include McCain in that since he stopped the bill to kill Obamacare.  Lost opportunities everytime they passed another spending resolution in the House.  I think they could have slipped in all sorts of legislation.  He got the tax cuts passed which was a big win."

I never said that Trump was responsible for everything that went wrong. But he's certainly a core contributor. And McCain might have been a lot more willing to play ball had not Trump been such and out and out prick on the campaign trail. That relationship was dead in the water from the very first moment Trump opened his mouth about McCain; I have NO doubt that part of that vote was an iron gauntleted thumb right in the president's eye.

Please note that I NEVER have said, or even inferred, that Trump has been a total failure as a President. But had he handled himself a bit differently early on he could have been a LOT more successful.

The numbered parts of my comments were not necessarily aimed at you.  Just me editorializing about the whole thing.  However, when you say "the bucks stops here", you are saying Trump was responsible for everything, good and bad.  That is what it means more or less.  In 30 years, people will likely be agreeing with that statement.  The details won't matter.  

I don't agree with the last statement.  I think the people who opposed him in both parties would have just found other reasons to not like him.  He was an outsider who was upsetting the establishment.  

[MechAg94]

Trump is a showman and as a showman he knows how to distract the press in much the same way as a magician uses his one hand to distract your attention from what the other hand is doing. Think how many court appointments he's done with one hand while the media is kept busy barking trying to get the treat from the other hand.

Not saying I agree with all of it what that's who he is and how he works.

I think that is a big part of it. 

I heard someone (Victor David Hanson maybe) say after year 1 that most Presidents stay Presidential or above it all and send out subordinates to do the controversial stuff and take the arrows.  Trump says/does all the controversial stuff while his subordinates do their job with hardly any attention.  They rarely get noticed until what they are doing is already done. 

[MechAg94]

Which means you pretty much agree with me that Trump is an atrocious person/leader. In the business world that style of leadership is termed toxic.

Truman took responsibility, Trump rarely does.

Truman took responsibility when things went badly, Trump rarely does.

Truman didn't provide a continuous quasi-liturgy of how everyone else has/is/will fail him personally, Trump does.

Truman was President in a different time and my knowledge of him is Atomic Bomb, "Dewey Defeats Truman", and Korean War.    https://youtu.be/k9DO26O6dIg?t=96

The times I am aware that Trump has criticized former employees was normally after they commented publicly about Trump.  I am not certain if that is 100%, but mostly.  That is the only part of his tweeting/showmanship that I never liked.

[Big Hairy Bee]

While Truman was in office he too had low approval ratings and was considered one of the least effective Presidents.  A lot has changed looking back at his decisions and their effects.

[WLJ]

While Truman was in office he too had low approval ratings and was considered one of the least effective Presidents.  A lot has changed looking back at his decisions and their effects.

Even back then much of the press was left wing, Truman was a bit further to the right than FDR, not on everything but enough, so much of the press didn't like him. The right wing press didn't like him either, he was too lefty. He also didn't have FDR's charisma. Todays dems would label Truman, probably even JFK, a far right wing extremist today.

[TommyGunn]

"The "buck stops here" is just recognition that most people will blame the guy at the top regardless of circumstances."

Incorrect. Harry Truman placed that sign as recognition that no matter what happened, HE was the President, and was responsible as HMFIC.

Truman didn't blame his underlings. He didn't go on endless tirades about them. He took responsibility, no matter what happened.


" Trump would not have gotten elected were he not the person he was.  A "dignified leader" type person would have lost."

I think that's a stretch considering just how reviled Hillary was, and still is, on the right.



"Paul Ryan is the main one in Congress who had the ability to change the mid-terms.  You might include McCain in that since he stopped the bill to kill Obamacare.  Lost opportunities everytime they passed another spending resolution in the House.  I think they could have slipped in all sorts of legislation.  He got the tax cuts passed which was a big win."

I never said that Trump was responsible for everything that went wrong. But he's certainly a core contributor. And McCain might have been a lot more willing to play ball had not Trump been such and out and out prick on the campaign trail. That relationship was dead in the water from the very first moment Trump opened his mouth about McCain; I have NO doubt that part of that vote was an iron gauntleted thumb right in the president's eye.

Please note that I NEVER have said, or even inferred, that Trump has been a total failure as a President. But had he handled himself a bit differently early on he could have been a LOT more successful.

   Atleast Trump isn't urinating in the Rose Garden,  picking up his beagle dog by its ears .... or leaving stains on interns' blue dresses.    So he's NOT a TOTAL reprobate .. .

[K Frame]

  Atleast Trump isn't urinating in the Rose Garden,  picking up his beagle dog by its ears .... or leaving stains on interns' blue dresses.    So he's NOT a TOTAL reprobate .. .

Wow... Did I say... anywhere... that the previous occupants of the White House were saints?

[K Frame]

While Truman was in office he too had low approval ratings and was considered one of the least effective Presidents.  A lot has changed looking back at his decisions and their effects.

Same with Eisenhower.

[MechAg94]

Wow... Did I say... anywhere... that the previous occupants of the White House were saints?

They weren't?   

[TommyGunn]

Wow... Did I say... anywhere... that the previous occupants of the White House were saints?

You sorta implied Trump wasn't a saint .....

Seriously,  I never thought Trump was a saint or saviour....but I thought you were .... maybe, a bit harsh.  
Trump seems a very direct person in many ways.  "Whatcha sees iz watcha git."  I think many politicians are often better managed and develop a "public face,"  usually developed as they matriculate through elected office.  You know, glad-handing, kissing babies (pre-covid19) and so forth.

Donald Trump avoided this background, for better or worse,  he has his own background,  mainly working with many people,  from people operating heavy machinery up to executive boardrooms.    He's "not"  a politician.  He's a New Yorker
unannointed in politics,  he won office largely due to that.

Certainly,  I think his personality could be described as ...... prickly.  But even before office, he was attacked and denounced in unprecedented ways.  A vicious plot was unleashed against him via the Mueller  plot to remove him.  Republicans, who should have helped him, refused, hogtying his efforts to undo Obamacare.

If I was in Trump's shoes,   I honestly don't know how I'd still be doing the job, let alone wanting four more years of it.

So I tend to want to defend him.   His policies work.  He seems to really love America,  a rare quality these days.   So he's not  Saint.

Unless you compare him to most of those who oppose him.

Your post came off as a bit too critical.  Maybe it was just me.  
I have a sore knee ....it jerks a lot....guess it's part of my curmudgeon nature.

[Perd Hapley]

Should Trump take responsibility? Yes.

Should other Republicans take responsibility for their own screw-ups? Yes.

Should we blame both for what they've actually done, or failed to do? Also yes.

[TommyGunn]

Should Trump take responsibility? Yes.

Should other Republicans take responsibility for their own screw-ups? Yes.

Should we blame both for what they've actually done, or failed to do? Also yes.

And give them credit for what they HAVE done.