"Israel Firsters," Their Detractors, and Their Detractors' Detractors

[roo_ster]

http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/12/glenn-greenwald-stands-by-israel-firsters-smear-in-column-complaining-of-anti-semitism-smear/

Dude takes obnoxious left-wing writer Glenn Greenwald to task for using the term "Israel Firsters" in a column. 

There is some inside baseball, but the author of the post completely misses some very cogent points:
1. The antisemitism accusation is getting as worn as the racism accusation due to over-use and mis-use.
2. Some Americans do put Israel's interest before America's.  Quite a few of them are very vocal about it and when folks are so gauche to point it out, out comes the antisemitism card.
3. Not all Israel-Firsters are Jewish.  Quite a few in Christian fundy or charismatic churches, though the Jewish Israel-Firsters have traditionally been quicker to use the antisemitism charge and get all bent out of shape when confronted with the obvious.
4. "Dual Loyalties" do exist.  Even wrote about it in the Bible as something to be avoided:

Matt 6:24 KJV
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

When one encounters an American who puts their ethnicity or another country before America, it is right and proper to call them out on it.  I have done so when I have seen it.  They deserve the criticism.

For my own part, I usually take Israel's part in its conflicts with its savage neighbors.  Because its neighbors are savages(1), not because Israel is anything special, other than a relatively decent westernized country.  When Israel's interests collide with America's, though, I side with America and expect fellow Americans to do so as well.


“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
----Lord Palmerston





(1) Is there any less sympathetic group than the "Palestinians?"  They'd be an humorous caricature were they not so stupid and brutish.

[RevDisk]

When one encounters an American who puts their ethnicity or another country before America, it is right and proper to call them out on it.  I have done so when I have seen it.  They deserve the criticism.

For my own part, I usually take Israel's part in its conflicts with its savage neighbors.  Because its neighbors are savages(1), not because Israel is anything special, other than a relatively decent westernized country.  When Israel's interests collide with America's, though, I side with America and expect fellow Americans to do so as well.

This.

I am habitually suspicious of anyone who puts their ethnic group or historical genetic ancestry above their country. Free country, and all that. But I personally look dimly on it. If you want to be more loyal to a foreign country than the US, tis fine. But please, move there and/or keep the US out of the matter.

That's just a general notion. I'm genetically German and Italian. I like German and Italian culture. I speak decent German, and wouldn't mind learning some Italian. I like the food, culture and alcohol of my genetic ancestry. But if either of those countries acted in a manner hostile to my country's best interest, they'd be under the bus quicker than you could blink. THIS is my home.



Honestly, I'm more honked off about the $114 billion plus we've given them as of 2008. (Source: CRS Report RL33222: U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel, updated Jan. 2, 2008) Uh, we don't get anything for that cash, as far as I know. We don't have military bases there, they don't pass us intelligence unless it's solely in their interest (thus they'd give it to us for free, just to screw someone over), they don't have strategic resources we need and they are not a military ally. That is one question I'd really like answered. I don't care about the religious, historical or ethnic circumstances of the region. It's the Middle East. It's the most convoluted and disputed territory in the world, and likely always will be.

So. What are we getting for our money? I'm sure somehow even asking this question will be considered antisemitic by someone, but it's honestly just a straight forward question.

[agricola]

"Israel-firsters" is a stupid term though, I doubt you would find very many people over in your little rebellion who - when questioned - would actually put Israel before the US, nor are there that many policies which clearly go against US interests in order to favour those of the Israelis (the one that came closest - the massive aid to Mubarak - is arguable but it was probably preferrable to having Egypt continue to be pro-Arab and pro-Soviet*).  

* at least in the early days

[MicroBalrog]

So. What are we getting for our money?

You? Specifically you? Because you know. I could have sworn you worked for Sikorski at one point.

American arms manufacturers are the key beneficiaries of the "foreign aid", more so than American or Israeli national interests.

[RevDisk]

"Israel-firsters" is a stupid term though, I doubt you would find very many people over in your little rebellion who - when questioned - would actually put Israel before the US, nor are there that many policies which clearly go against US interests in order to favour those of the Israelis

If BridgeRunner replies to this thread, you'll understand why I am laughing so hard.

You? Specifically you? Because you know. I could have sworn you worked for Sikorski at one point.

American arms manufacturers are the key beneficiaries of the "foreign aid", more so than American or Israeli national interests.

Yes, I know, but I'm playing stupid to further the discussion.

Pssst, tell them the standard firearms of the IDF, where they are made, and why this is not good.

[MicroBalrog]

Several parts of the Tavor assault rifle are manufactured in the United States to qualify IWI for aid money.

Oh and the aid is used as leverage to also get Israel to buy gear that's not included in the aid.

In short, the USA spends 2.5 billion a year that is all subsidies to U.S. corporations, and further uses the money get Israel to buy various goods beyond that sum, like Ford pickup trucks.

[RevDisk]

Several parts of the Tavor assault rifle are manufactured in the United States to qualify IWI for aid money.

Oh and the aid is used as leverage to also get Israel to buy gear that's not included in the aid.

In short, the USA spends 2.5 billion a year that is all subsidies to U.S. corporations, and further uses the money get Israel to buy various goods beyond that sum, like Ford pickup trucks.

So, you're saying foreign aid to Israel costs US and Israeli taxpayers boatloads of cash, lowers the national security of the US and Israel, and solely benefits some crooked politicians, some crooked lobbyists and politically connected companies?

[MicroBalrog]

That's not quite true. It also destroys Israel's national sovereignty.

[Tallpine]

So, you're saying foreign aid to Israel the defense budget costs US and Israeli taxpayers boatloads of cash, lowers the national security of the US and Israel, and solely benefits some crooked politicians, some crooked lobbyists and politically connected companies?

Fixed 

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I doubt you would find very many people over in your little rebellion who - when questioned - would actually put Israel before the US

I'm sorry to say this is false. Know some Christian fundies who strongly objected to the idea of (the US) punishing US military/intel folk for selling classified information to the Israelis.

[roo_ster]

That's not quite true. It also destroys Israel's national sovereignty.

We have treaty obligations tied to most of those dollars.  Something about Egyptians & Israelis, and a peanut farmer promising to give them both boatloads of cash so they do what was in their best interests in the first place (not shoot at and kill each other). 

I can just see Begin and Sadat negotiating before going to Camp David:

Begin: Anwar, this is all great.  We get rid of the gawdforsaken Sinai and you get to stop spending megabucks on border troops.  What would really make this deal would be if we could get someone to pay us indefinitely to not kill each other.
Sadat: No one is that stupid.  If they were, they'd forget to breathe and suffocate.
Begin: You haven't met Jimmy Carter, have you?

[RevDisk]

Heh, my dad accidently insulted Carter while intoxicated.  Prior to him becoming President.  Basically said he was a lousy politician, but the peanuts were awesome.

Whoops

[stevelyn]

3. Not all Israel-Firsters are Jewish.  Quite a few in Christian fundy or charismatic churches, though the Jewish Israel-Firsters have traditionally been quicker to use the antisemitism charge and get all bent out of shape when confronted with the obvious.

The Jewish Israel-firsters will pull the anti-semitism card.

The Christian fundy/charismatic Israel-firsters will always pull the "God's chosen people" card.

[lee n. field]

The Christian fundy/charismatic Israel-firsters will always pull the "God's chosen people" card.

Oh, they'll throw "antisemitic" around freely, too.  I've been called that and worse, for not toeing their line.

[roo_ster]

The Jewish Israel-firsters will pull the anti-semitism card.

The Christian fundy/charismatic Israel-firsters will always pull the "God's chosen people" card.

They are not mutually exclusive cards.