Post by: cosine on July 09, 2008, 07:11:20 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 09, 2008, 07:39:18 PM
Post by: cosine on July 09, 2008, 07:45:20 PM
I thought you just read the books. So what's the problem?
No, I'm trying to read the books. That's not going much better than watching the movie trilogy did.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 09, 2008, 07:56:54 PM
Hey, if you don't dig 'em, just read the Cliff notes and move on. 
Post by: cosine on July 09, 2008, 08:02:41 PM
Oh, so you just want to be an iconoclast. Hey, if you don't dig 'em, just read the Cliff notes and move on.
Hey, if you don't dig 'em, just read the Cliff notes and move on. I may just do that.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 09, 2008, 08:57:29 PM
Post by: HankB on July 10, 2008, 03:16:55 AM
FWIW, I never did finish reading the books . . . heck, I never finished reading the first book.
The long, rambling descriptions of Hobbitown and other heavily-padded passages made me think Tolkien was getting paid by the word, sort of like Robert Jordan after the first few books in his Wheel of Time series.
Post by: griz on July 10, 2008, 03:27:05 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 10, 2008, 03:58:07 AM
But the city in Return of the King...where were the farm fields? What did they eat?
Post by: MechAg94 on July 10, 2008, 04:28:54 AM
There was some stuff about the battle in front of the walls I didn't like either, but I'll save that.
IMO, the books were better since I always hate for movies to spoil the imagination of a book. At the time, I thought Tolkien's descriptions of the landscape and such were pretty good. I did read the Hobbit first so maybe that kept me going for the first book. It gets better.
Post by: cosine on July 10, 2008, 04:43:45 AM
Where are you in the books? I found the first book to be pretty slow. They get progressively better.
The sixth chapter of the first book.
Quote from: Manedwolf
But the city in Return of the King...where were the farm fields? What did they eat?
I noticed and wondered about the same thing too.
Quote from: MechAg94
IMO, the books were better since I always hate for movies to spoil the imagination of a book. At the time, I thought Tolkien's descriptions of the landscape and such were pretty good. I did read the Hobbit first so maybe that kept me going for the first book. It gets better.
I made it through The Hobbit, that was a bit easier to read, although I didn't really enjoy it. I think his many descriptions of landscapes is something I don't like. Good, so it's a beautiful country. Now can I please have some weighty content that actually seems to further the storyline?
Post by: BrokenPaw on July 10, 2008, 05:03:53 AM
Where are you in the books? I found the first book to be pretty slow. They get progressively better.
The sixth chapter of the first book.
Quote from: Manedwolf
But the city in Return of the King...where were the farm fields? What did they eat?
I noticed and wondered about the same thing too.
As others have said, the first book gets started excruciatingly slowly, but things do pick up to an extent later in the series. There are spots later on that are give-me-that-part-of-my-life-back dull, though. I've read the whole series a number of times, and I'd wager that I know it about as well as it's possible to know it while not being a mom's-basement-dwelling Tolkien Dork.
The thing that is different about LOTR is that it's not a book, or even a series of books. It's a world. Tolkien was, among other things, a linguist. The various languages and mythologies presented in LOTR are actually pretty thoroughly put together, and the races each have a history that Tolkien put together as meticulously as any anthropologist. The fact that he was making stuff up doesn't change the level of detail that he put into it. I'd wager to say that Tolkien, by the time he was done, knew more about the fictional races in his books than we know about some ancient cultures that actually existed.
Middle Earth even has scripture.
With respect to the way that Minas Tirith fed itself, there's a certain amount of discussion of that in the books, and more in some of the side works. Thing is, the Tower of Guard was just that: a fortress; it was there for one purpose only, to provide a military stronghold against the potential that Mordor might rise and attack Gondor again. So it was built not with economics in mind, but with strategic position and defensibility in mind. Food was carried to the city in wagons from all over the country of Gondor. One might as well look at New York City and ask where they grow their food; simple...they don't. They haul it from elsewhere.
This fine-grained world-building is both a strength and a weakness for the stories; on the one hand, it means that it's one of the most internally-consistent works of that magnitude ever written. On the other hand, since he put all that effort into it, I get the feeling that Tolkien occasionally got carried away in putting too much detail into things. Later on in the first book, for instance, Frodo will come to a mountain called Caradhras, and Tolkien will carefully point out that that it its name in Elvish (Sindarin specifically), and that in the language of Men it means "Redhorn", and in the tongue of the Dwarves, it is called "Barazinbar". None of which advances the story, but provides insight into the depth of the people and races in it.
That may be your cup of tea. It may not. I find Tolkien's worlds compelling for their completeness and consistency. Even so, I still occasionally get frustrated with how long it takes for him to get to the point in some parts of the story.
-BP
Post by: cosine on July 10, 2008, 05:22:23 AM
Where are you in the books? I found the first book to be pretty slow. They get progressively better.
The sixth chapter of the first book.
Quote from: Manedwolf
But the city in Return of the King...where were the farm fields? What did they eat?
I noticed and wondered about the same thing too.
As others have said, the first book gets started excruciatingly slowly, but things do pick up to an extent later in the series. There are spots later on that are give-me-that-part-of-my-life-back dull, though. I've read the whole series a number of times, and I'd wager that I know it about as well as it's possible to know it while not being a mom's-basement-dwelling Tolkien Dork.
The thing that is different about LOTR is that it's not a book, or even a series of books. It's a world. Tolkien was, among other things, a linguist. The various languages and mythologies presented in LOTR are actually pretty thoroughly put together, and the races each have a history that Tolkien put together as meticulously as any anthropologist. The fact that he was making stuff up doesn't change the level of detail that he put into it. I'd wager to say that Tolkien, by the time he was done, knew more about the fictional races in his books than we know about some ancient cultures that actually existed.
Middle Earth even has scripture.
With respect to the way that Minas Tirith fed itself, there's a certain amount of discussion of that in the books, and more in some of the side works. Thing is, the Tower of Guard was just that: a fortress; it was there for one purpose only, to provide a military stronghold against the potential that Mordor might rise and attack Gondor again. So it was built not with economics in mind, but with strategic position and defensibility in mind. Food was carried to the city in wagons from all over the country of Gondor. One might as well look at New York City and ask where they grow their food; simple...they don't. They haul it from elsewhere.
This fine-grained world-building is both a strength and a weakness for the stories; on the one hand, it means that it's one of the most internally-consistent works of that magnitude ever written. On the other hand, since he put all that effort into it, I get the feeling that Tolkien occasionally got carried away in putting too much detail into things. Later on in the first book, for instance, Frodo will come to a mountain called Caradhras, and Tolkien will carefully point out that that it its name in Elvish (Sindarin specifically), and that in the language of Men it means "Redhorn", and in the tongue of the Dwarves, it is called "Barazinbar". None of which advances the story, but provides insight into the depth of the people and races in it.
That may be your cup of tea. It may not. I find Tolkien's worlds compelling for their completeness and consistency. Even so, I still occasionally get frustrated with how long it takes for him to get to the point in some parts of the story.
-BP
Thanks for this post, Brokenpaw. I didn't realize anything which you wrote about Lord of the Rings. That provides a better insight for me about where Tolkien is coming from and why. You may have given me enough understanding of what Lord of the Rings is and how it's put together to make reading easier and more enjoyable. I may be able to actually finish it.
Post by: roo_ster on July 10, 2008, 05:26:17 AM
Another JRRT book that gives a clue as the the depth of the world he created is The Silmarillion.
Post by: Tallpine on July 10, 2008, 05:29:53 AM
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
Post by: cosine on July 10, 2008, 05:32:38 AM
Either the movies or the books are best on a blizzardy winter day curled up by the fire with a cup of hot chocolate. In that case, both are way too short and lacking in detail
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
School's out and I actually have some free time? Last year I had one 18 credit semester and one 17 credit semester, and this upcoming year I'm going to have two 18 credit semesters, so as you may suspect time becomes mighty precious.
Post by: Racehorse on July 10, 2008, 05:40:04 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on July 10, 2008, 05:40:42 AM
Either the movies or the books are best on a blizzardy winter day curled up by the fire with a cup of hot chocolate. In that case, both are way too short and lacking in detail
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
School's out and I actually have some free time? Last year I had one 18 credit semester and one 17 credit semester, and this upcoming year I'm going to have two 18 credit semesters, so as you may suspect time becomes mighty precious.
I'll cry you a river.
I did 18hr semesters Sophomore through Junior year so I could start grad school in my Senior year (only 16hrs/semester that year). I finished up my degrees in the 5th year with only 12hrs and internships. I worked full time during the summer too. Kids are so soft these days.
Edit to add: I was only a Business major, nothing hard like "real" math or physics.
Chris
Post by: HankB on July 10, 2008, 05:56:56 AM
. . . The thing that is different about LOTR is that it's not a book, or even a series of books. It's a world
Edgar Rice Burroughs did a pretty good job describing Barsoom and its different cultures, and in his more "down to earth" books he created a language for the mangani. (OK, so ERB"s science is flaky . . . we know that . . . now.)
Post by: cosine on July 10, 2008, 06:01:53 AM
Either the movies or the books are best on a blizzardy winter day curled up by the fire with a cup of hot chocolate. In that case, both are way too short and lacking in detail
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
What the heck are you doing reading or watching LOTR in the middle of July ?
School's out and I actually have some free time? Last year I had one 18 credit semester and one 17 credit semester, and this upcoming year I'm going to have two 18 credit semesters, so as you may suspect time becomes mighty precious.
I'll cry you a river.
I did 18hr semesters Sophomore through Junior year so I could start grad school in my Senior year (only 16hrs/semester that year). I finished up my degrees in the 5th year with only 12hrs and internships. I worked full time during the summer too. Kids are so soft these days.
Edit to add: I was only a Business major, nothing hard like "real" math or physics.
Chris
Aha! I knew there had to be a catch!
Post by: doc2rn on July 10, 2008, 06:20:28 AM
In the book they go back to Hobbiton and take out ole worm tongue who had aided in hexing the king. It also would have been neat to see the elven gifts work in the movie like they did in the book.
Post by: mtnbkr on July 10, 2008, 06:20:45 AM
Chris
Post by: cosine on July 10, 2008, 06:23:31 AM
Yeah, I had to go back and add that when I remembered you were a math major or something like that.
Chris
Chris
Electrical engineering. Almost a math degree.
(I can get a math minor from MU with the addition of only one math course besides those which I have to take for my EE degree.)
Post by: xavier fremboe on July 10, 2008, 06:39:04 AM
Post by: Tallpine on July 10, 2008, 06:57:55 AM
) and left out some interesting stuff - like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry (my favorite characters).Remember, too - that the books were written before tv and video games and ADD
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 10, 2008, 08:39:15 AM
Nice CG, though.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 10, 2008, 09:04:54 AM
It's too bad they butchered the ending of the movie.
In the book they go back to Hobbiton and take out ole worm tongue who had aided in hexing the king. It also would have been neat to see the elven gifts work in the movie like they did in the book.
They did include a number of them. Which ones are you thinking of? It has been a while since I read the book.
In the book they go back to Hobbiton and take out ole worm tongue who had aided in hexing the king. It also would have been neat to see the elven gifts work in the movie like they did in the book.
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 10, 2008, 09:09:39 AM
Quote
I've read the whole series a number of times, and I'd wager that I know it about as well as it's possible to know it while not being a mom's-basement-dwelling Tolkien Dork.
Sure, but that post kinda makes you an APS-dwelling Tokien Dork.
Brad
Post by: AJ Dual on July 10, 2008, 09:12:12 AM
No Scouring of the Shire, and too much "Take me, Mr. Frodo, I'm your Samwise, take me now!"
Nice CG, though.
Nice CG, though.
Yeah, it was just a little too "Brokeback Hobbit" in parts. I'll agree.
Post by: roo_ster on July 10, 2008, 10:08:17 AM
Yeah, it was just a little too "Brokeback Hobbit" in parts. I'll agree.Oh, thanks a lot for THAT disturbing visual.
Post by: Physics on July 10, 2008, 10:18:22 AM
I also was very disappointed to not see Bombadil in the movies, not to mention old man willow and the barrow wight. LOTR is so amazing, as has been already said, because of the breadth of it. The history, linguistics, and geography of Middle Earth is far more developed than other "worlds" such as Star Wars. Keep in mind Tolkien not only created the characters and their interactions, he created a whole world! Hell, the Balrog has as much history to it as any Star Wars character. And through all of this "big picture" world-making, he still takes the time to describe the little Elanor flower in the golden wood, and to tell you (in elvish) what exactly the ring says. "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
I think this makes me a Tolkien dork, but that's okay, I saw Return of the King TWICE on opening day. Watched it in the theater, walked out and bought another ticket and went right back in. I had been waiting for those movies since 4th grade after all. Oh yeah, if reading the series that many times didn't make me a Tolkien dork, my "One ring" wedding ring kind of gives it away.
Oh and as for "Brokeback Hobbit", I got somewhat of this from the books. Towards the end of Sam and Frodo's journey, Sam does get a little bit gay there.
Post by: Manedwolf on July 10, 2008, 10:26:10 AM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on July 10, 2008, 10:41:16 AM
there's a way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y
Post by: BrokenPaw on July 10, 2008, 10:42:48 AM
Quote
I've read the whole series a number of times, and I'd wager that I know it about as well as it's possible to know it while not being a mom's-basement-dwelling Tolkien Dork.
Sure, but that post kinda makes you an APS-dwelling Tokien Dork.
Touché.
But at least I've met girls. In person. That's more than most Tolkien Dorks can claim.
I suppose now's not the time to mention that the "number of times" that I've read LOTR is higher than twenty; that at one point in my youth, I read it straight through, one book per day; that at another point in my youth, I read it all the way through, and then, when I'd finished, started over and read it again; that I have the inscription on the One Ring (that Physics quoted above) memorized; that I have most of the poems and songs from the book memorized; that I have much of "Bored of the Rings" (A Harvard Lampoon spoof of LOTR) memorized...
I won't mention any of that, because that would make you doubt the fact that I bathe regularly and have a real job and a real wife that I met without benefit of a chat-room.
Oh, and for the record, I can neither confirm nor deny explaining at length to BrokenKid all of the things in the movies that were wrong, and why, and how they should have been.
-BP
Post by: xavier fremboe on July 10, 2008, 10:45:41 AM
Quote
I've read the whole series a number of times, and I'd wager that I know it about as well as it's possible to know it while not being a mom's-basement-dwelling Tolkien Dork.
Sure, but that post kinda makes you an APS-dwelling Tokien Dork.
Touché.
But at least I've met girls. In person. That's more than most Tolkien Dorks can claim.
I suppose now's not the time to mention that the "number of times" that I've read LOTR is higher than twenty; that at one point in my youth, I read it straight through, one book per day; that at another point in my youth, I read it all the way through, and then, when I'd finished, started over and read it again; that I have the inscription on the One Ring (that Physics quoted above) memorized; that I have most of the poems and songs from the book memorized; that I have much of "Bored of the Rings" (A Harvard Lampoon spoof of LOTR) memorized...
I won't mention any of that, because that would make you doubt the fact that I bathe regularly and have a real job and a real wife that I met without benefit of a chat-room.
Oh, and for the record, I can neither confirm nor deny explaining at length to BrokenKid all of the things in the movies that were wrong, and why, and how they should have been.
-BP
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 10, 2008, 11:44:26 AM
Oh, and for the record, I can neither confirm nor deny explaining at length to BrokenKid all of the things in the movies that were wrong, and why, and how they should have been.
-BP
-BP
Oh yeah? Watch UHF and try explaining that.
Brad
Post by: Tallpine on July 10, 2008, 11:50:32 AM
Quote
All I can remember from Bored of the Rings was that no one in the village would trust Moxie and/or Pepsi with burnt match.
Suddenly Gangolf* stopped talking, and a shadow crossed his face. "I cannot say more," he said, "because a shadow has crossed my face."
* something like that ...?
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 10, 2008, 12:39:01 PM
Quote
Remember, too - that the books were written before tv and video games and ADD
Quote
Try reading Virgil or Dante, those are hard books.
If by Dante, you mean the Divine Comedy, it's only hard when you get to Paradiso. Booooooring.
Post by: Physics on July 10, 2008, 12:56:43 PM
Quote
If by Dante, you mean the Divine Comedy, it's only hard when you get to Paradiso. Booooooring. smiley
I just figured that meant I was screwed.
I loved inferno, purgatory was neither bad nor good, and paradise was ridiculous. Luckily the preface to each chapter at least tells you whats about to happen, because I really was lost in that. At least when Tolkien talks about something, he talks about it, not some crazy allegory. You know what he's talking about. Take for example, Canto 14 of Paradise; Dante speaks with King Solomon, yet never in the text of the chapter is Solomon actually named, nor any indications that Dante is speaking to him except a reference to a voice from the light.
You can at least understand Tolkien. It's like War and Peace, it is extremely clear and you know exactly what the author is saying, because the use of language is so good (Tolkien was a linguist!). Sometimes, I guess this makes for dull reading for some, but I absolutely loved Tolstoy, and Tolkien will always be a favorite.
Post by: Bigjake on July 10, 2008, 05:23:09 PM
Quote
Remember, too - that the books were written before tv and video games and ADD
I read up on Tolkien, he and C.S. Lewis were big on that stuff.
Post by: yesitsloaded on July 10, 2008, 05:25:44 PM
Post by: Bigjake on July 10, 2008, 05:30:28 PM
Bit of thread drift, but I just read your sig line.
When I took various chem classes, anything I didn't grasp was refered to as PFM Pure effing Magic!
Post by: MillCreek on July 10, 2008, 05:43:06 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 10, 2008, 05:46:02 PM
If you want easy reading, just go with Finnegan's Wake. You won't understand it. But if you DO understand it, then we know you need some time in the rubber room and the doctor will make a little cut on your head and take out the part of your brain that makes you do bad things.
Post by: Manedwolf on July 10, 2008, 06:13:57 PM
I've tried reading Faulkner's The Bear. Twice. I always get confused somewhere a few pages into the old plantation journals.
Read The Sound and the Fury if you want things you have to read back over to pick up what's being expressed. One entire chapter is written as the events are percieved by a retarded person.
Post by: xavier fremboe on July 10, 2008, 11:33:02 PM
Quote
Remember, too - that the books were written before tv and video games and ADD
And discussed it with beer at breakfast!
*edited to correct ipod typing error*
Post by: LAK on July 11, 2008, 02:53:38 AM
Post by: BryanP on July 11, 2008, 02:58:11 AM
LOTR is one of the very few instances in which the movie was better than the book.
Blasphemer! Stone the heretic!
I read the books for the first time when I was 9. They're wonderful. The movies are quite good too, but in a different way.
Post by: BryanP on July 11, 2008, 03:00:37 AM
What BP wrote, with bells on it.
Another JRRT book that gives a clue as the the depth of the world he created is The Silmarillion.
Another JRRT book that gives a clue as the the depth of the world he created is The Silmarillion.
As much as I love Tolkien's books, if someone is having trouble getting through Fellowship then asking them to try The Silmarillion is a bit of a stretch. "Oh, that Nyquil is a bit strong for you? Here, try some laudenum instead."
Post by: BryanP on July 11, 2008, 03:06:13 AM
Edit to add: I was only a Business major, nothing hard like "real" math or physics.
Chris
Chris
So how far to the left of this image would a Business major fall?
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png
Post by: mtnbkr on July 11, 2008, 03:10:34 AM
Chris
Post by: Sindawe on July 11, 2008, 04:58:03 AM
Quote from: Physics
...to tell you (in elvish) what exactly the ring says. "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
While the inscription on the One Ring was written in the script of Tengwar (one of the written languages of the Elves of Middle Earth), the actual tongue is the Black Speech originated by Sauron (possibly as a corruption of Valarin) for use as the sole language of his servents in Middle Earth.
Quote
where there's a whip,
there's a way
there's a way
ARRRGGHHH!!!! I thankfully purged that from my memory YEARS ago, and now you bring it back.
Tit for tat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
Post by: erictank on July 11, 2008, 05:30:37 AM
Quote from: Physics
...to tell you (in elvish) what exactly the ring says. "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
While the inscription on the One Ring was written in the script of Tengwar (one of the written languages of the Elves of Middle Earth), the actual tongue is the Black Speech originated by Sauron (possibly as a corruption of Valarin) for use as the sole language of his servents in Middle Earth.
Quote
where there's a whip,
there's a way
there's a way
ARRRGGHHH!!!! I thankfully purged that from my memory YEARS ago, and now you bring it back.
Tit for tat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
Hey, I *LIKED* those animated movies!
Then again, I was in elementary school when I watched them on TV...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 11, 2008, 02:17:20 PM
Quote
the actual tongue is the Black Speech originated by Sauron (possibly as a corruption of Valarin)
Um, excuse me? Can I get an apology please?
Post by: Matthew Carberry on July 11, 2008, 03:24:48 PM
The Fields of the Pellenor? They were fields, think Iowa.
Also, the movie is a bit different from the book.
The ships Aragorn sails up in at the turn of the battle were the Corsairs of Umbar, who have been raiding the smaller Kingdoms to the South, preventing their troops from coming to Gondor's aid.
He uses the Dead to kill the Corsairs, which frees the armies of allied men from the South to come with him to the battle. Those Southern kingdoms are the breadbasket of Gondor.
Post by: Bigjake on July 11, 2008, 03:33:01 PM
Speaking of the Pellanor Fields, if you read the King of Rohan's "forth, Rohirm" speech without getting some goosebumps, you have no soul.
Post by: obmax1212 on July 21, 2008, 03:35:52 PM
It's funny that the first book wasn't peoples favorite. I actually enjoyed that one the most. I think it has to do with the fact that you are encountering the Black Riders for the first time and they are truly mystifying. The Mines of Moria are pretty cool too. I think one area people have much difficulty in is the various names and locations. As a previous poster mentioned, Tolkien was a linguist and these books were created largely to display the languages he had created. The Silmarillion, which is like a history of Middle-earth and the Elves, was the first book he started (and the last finished), and it chronicled who spoke these languages and why they had come to take the form he had given them.
If you like language and mythology, these are the books for you. When you approach them with an understanding that they are about more than just an adventure you will get more out of reading them. There is a lot of depth to the books, which is why it is considered "High Fantasy". Note all the books, films and games that have stolen ideas from Tolkien.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on July 21, 2008, 07:47:41 PM
Love'm all.