Author Topic: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines  (Read 9456 times)

Fly320s

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 07:49:16 PM »
I, for one, am outraged at this latest development. I never expected that an enormous agency of the federal government, tasked with myriad responsibilities including enforcement of lawful federal regulations, would have any need, at any point ever, for (gasp!) FIREARMS! Clearly this is evidence of one of Barack **HUSSEIN** Obama's latest schemes to oppress the small farmers of America with jack booted thugs wielding high-clip rapidfire assault machineguns in the dreaded ultra-deadly 40 caliber (for God's sake, they are probably even using exploding-tip talon shredder Hollow Points), in order to enact his socialist tyrannical agenda. Why else would agents need the unrestricted and hyperoppressive firepower that is offered by the .40 Caliber Submachineguns used by our governments?? They probably even have the shoulder thing that goes up, which as we all know, can anywhere from double to quadruple the oppression capacity of a Forty Caliber Assault Machinegun.

DHS buying flesh-shredder hollow points and now this. It's clear that the grand HUSSEIN Obama oppression scheme is right around the corner.

There is no reason that a federal agency which was tasked by Congress with creating and enforcing lawful regulations should EVER HAVE GUNS EVER. There is no reason that federal officials would EVER conceivably have a need for firearms in the course of their regulatory enforcement duties. I mean, I think we can all agree there are some places GUNS JUST DON'T BELONG-- Like, why would you ever take a gun with you to CHURCH. You're never going to need a gun in church. I mean, I support the Second Amendment and everything, but come on, there is no reason you should ever take a gun to CHURCH. Or schools. Or college campuses. Or all public parks. Or libraries. USDA agents are supposed to be doing agricultural stuff or something. So of course they should never have guns.

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cordex

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 07:53:07 PM »
Do you contend via your heavy-handed sarcasm that every government agency needs or ideally should have its own, independent in-house enforcement division and SWAT team?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 11:11:17 PM »
Here's the difference.

When a private individual purchases a firearm, he does so with his private money. What he does with his firearm is his personal chhoice and responsibility, and if Gods forbid, he kills someone by accident or murders them on purpose, he is the one going to prison.

Public agencies buy guns and use them on the public's dime and in their actions, they represent the entire public. As such, citizens have the right and responsibility to be involved in the government choice of tactics, equipment, etc. Just as Congress (and thus voters) can and do deny the military specific weapons systems, they can and sometimes do deny certain arms, tactics, and outfits to law enforcement.

What exactly is the problem?
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HForrest

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 12:34:26 AM »
I absolutely agree and understand your point Boris. We have every right to be aware of and scale the level of armament that our government representatives have. But I see nothing at all out of line or out of the ordinary with the USDA's request to arm employees with pistol caliber submachineguns.

I get very tired of the conservative/libertarian side's alarmism and thinly veiled implications that these completely ordinary and run of the mill acquisitions of small caliber weapons or ammunition are somehow an indication of or related to an impending Obama plot to enslave Americans in the FEMA camps. Just like the whole "ZOMG 50 TRILLION ROUNDS OF SUPER LETHAL HOLLOW POINT ROUNDS" fiasco last year. Which, what do you know, was completely overblown and meaningless. 

The U.S. Forest Service is run by the USDA. Along with a gigantic number of additional functions that I don't have the time or desire to even try to learn about right now. They have to cover huge swaths of land, sometimes occupied by dangerous criminals or members of foreign terrorist organizations growing drugs,  and employ a large number of sworn peace officers.

Whether or not these functions being delegated to the USDA is an ideal libertarian or freedom-oriented system is another discussion. But right now, they are. So they have every reason to use the types of small arms that are in common use with the vast majority of law enforcement agencies across the country.

And I find it ironic that a certain type of gun like a fully automatic weapon provokes this reaction, while other types of firearms most likely would not. We all know that the NFA is absurd, and I think we essentially all agree that it should be repealed. The mechanical difference and practical lethality of a semi-automatic vs a fully automatic firearm is almost negligible in most circumstances not involving full scale military style combat. So why are we getting all flipped out and acting like "ZOMG MACHINEGUNS" in the hands of trained government officials in the course of their lawful duties are somehow something to be concerned about? They are no deadlier or more useful in government oppression than any other type of modern arms.

I realize this is a part of a greater debate about the size and scope of the federal government, which is a completely legitimate debate, and I'd probably be right in the same camp as most of you when it comes to slashing a lot of federal organizations. But as it is right now, the USDA handles large scale law enforcement operations. So it's like, they are going to have guns, and I would go so far as to say they absolutely should have guns as long as they are a part of those operations.

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 12:39:50 AM »
But as it is right now, the USDA handles large scale law enforcement operations.


That seems to be what most of us are arguing against. We don't like the Department of Plowshares buying swords, because it is yet another indicator that the government is out of hand and over-budget.

Yes, they "need them right now," but the whole point is that they should stop needing them. The fact that they "need them" means we've gone wrong.
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HForrest

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 12:59:07 AM »
Well, someone has to have LE jurisdiction over our vast National Forests.

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 01:28:03 AM »
How about local LE?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 01:28:41 AM »
Well, someone has to have LE jurisdiction over our vast National Forests.

If only there was some kind of agency responsible for law enforcement on the Federal level.

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Re:
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 01:29:02 AM »
National forest falls outside local jurisdiction

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brimic

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Re:
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 08:23:56 AM »
National forest falls outside local jurisdiction

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State police?
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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 09:07:49 AM »
I absolutely agree and understand your point Boris. We have every right to be aware of and scale the level of armament that our government representatives have. But I see nothing at all out of line or out of the ordinary with the USDA's request to arm employees with pistol caliber submachineguns.

I get very tired of the conservative/libertarian side's alarmism and thinly veiled implications that these completely ordinary and run of the mill acquisitions of small caliber weapons or ammunition are somehow an indication of or related to an impending Obama plot to enslave Americans in the FEMA camps. Just like the whole "ZOMG 50 TRILLION ROUNDS OF SUPER LETHAL HOLLOW POINT ROUNDS" fiasco last year. Which, what do you know, was completely overblown and meaningless. 

The U.S. Forest Service is run by the USDA. Along with a gigantic number of additional functions that I don't have the time or desire to even try to learn about right now. They have to cover huge swaths of land, sometimes occupied by dangerous criminals or members of foreign terrorist organizations growing drugs,  and employ a large number of sworn peace officers.

Whether or not these functions being delegated to the USDA is an ideal libertarian or freedom-oriented system is another discussion. But right now, they are. So they have every reason to use the types of small arms that are in common use with the vast majority of law enforcement agencies across the country.

And I find it ironic that a certain type of gun like a fully automatic weapon provokes this reaction, while other types of firearms most likely would not. We all know that the NFA is absurd, and I think we essentially all agree that it should be repealed. The mechanical difference and practical lethality of a semi-automatic vs a fully automatic firearm is almost negligible in most circumstances not involving full scale military style combat. So why are we getting all flipped out and acting like "ZOMG MACHINEGUNS" in the hands of trained government officials in the course of their lawful duties are somehow something to be concerned about? They are no deadlier or more useful in government oppression than any other type of modern arms.

I realize this is a part of a greater debate about the size and scope of the federal government, which is a completely legitimate debate, and I'd probably be right in the same camp as most of you when it comes to slashing a lot of federal organizations. But as it is right now, the USDA handles large scale law enforcement operations. So it's like, they are going to have guns, and I would go so far as to say they absolutely should have guns as long as they are a part of those operations.

The U.S. Forest Service is run by the USDA.

Surely you are not arguing that pistol cal carbines have anything other than the most marginal utility for any US Forest Service personnel...let alone the meat slappers?  A number of different firearms would be of more utility and would raise zero eyebrows for USFS: shotguns optimized for slugs, any bolt action rifle in .243 or greater chambering, or even an AR10-based rifle in .308.  Pistol cal carbines are almost solely used by gov't SAWTtie types against humans. 

If only there was some kind of agency responsible for law enforcement on the Federal level.

Heck, I am game for the status of federales to be as it was before Hoover got Congress to allow the FBI to pack heat during the Red Scare.  Agents would have to team up with local law enforcement if they expected to arrest anyone or use force as they were not allowed to pack heat.  That is the correct balance of power.
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Re:
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 09:13:24 AM »
To be fair, the forest service does have tactical.units that have taken point on operations against very bad people with large grow operations in national forests

Of course, if MJ weren't absurdly illegal, there's be no need for armed bad guys to commandeer  forests for growing it...
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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2014, 10:25:56 AM »
Wow, this thread blew up from where it started. 

On the idea of LEO's carrying sidearms, I go along with Jim Malone (Sean Connery's character in The Untouchables)... "You carry a badge?  Carry a gun."  Why?  I carried a badge for 12 years as a prosecutor.  I had three situation outside of the office where I was accosted because of that job.  On one of those occasions, the man threatened my infant son and I with a weapon, and I pulled on him.  It happens, and I would no more deny an officer the ability to protect himself/herself and the family than I would any of you.

I fully agree that the LEO in every department crap is overplayed.  Every Secretary in the Cabinet wants his/her own army, and the budget be damned, they're going to have it.  That means not only having sidearms for investigators, but "tactical" teams, because you never know when the Department of Education is going to have to serve a high-risk, no-knock, door-breaching-required warrant on some no good student loan defaulter.   ;/

As for an appropriate long arm for an LEO in the forest, why not dig around some of those .mil surplus places and dig out some M-1s, or M-14s?  Pleanty of accuracy, plenty of power, and the price is right.
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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2014, 11:47:12 AM »
I'll be ok with feds having sub guns when I can buy one made after '86 over the counter on a 4473.
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cordex

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2014, 12:30:47 PM »
I'll be ok with feds having sub guns when I can buy one made after '86 over the counter on a 4473.
Yeah, but I still don't think we need so many distinct enforcement agencies.

Balog

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2014, 12:37:44 PM »
Yeah, but I still don't think we need so many distinct enforcement agencies.

I agree, but that's an entirely separate question from what the remaining enforcement agencies carry.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2014, 02:01:27 PM »
State police?

That would be more logical but I think part of the issue is no one wants to have to cover more real estate they feel strained now


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Fly320s

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 08:50:29 PM »
I oppose arming law enforcement agencies with select fire firearms at any time.  When a cop needs to shoot, each shot needs to be aimed and controlled to stop the actions of the bad guys.  At no time does a LEO need suppressive-fire capability. Nor does he need a multi-shot automatic burst to stop a bad guy.

It is the duty of each LEO to use the minimum force necessary to control the situation.
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Tallpine

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Re:
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2014, 09:54:48 PM »
National forest falls outside local jurisdiction

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Scout26

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Re:
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 11:25:11 PM »
To be fair, the forest service does have tactical.units that have taken point on operations against very bad people with large grow operations in national forests

Of course, if MJ weren't absurdly illegal, there's be no need for armed bad guys to commandeer  forests for growing it...

Why aren't the US Marshals leading the charge in those cases?  That makes much more sense then each Cabinet Secretary having his on Praetorian Guard/Private Army.





I will agree that MJ needs to be legalized along with all the others.  The War on Drugs is over.  We lost.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 06:22:54 PM »
I'll be ok with feds having sub guns when I can buy one made after '86 over the counter on a 4473.


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Fly320s

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2014, 06:38:30 PM »
I'll be ok with feds having sub guns when I can buy one made after '86 over the counter on a 4473 without paperwork.

More betterer.
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Balog

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2014, 11:20:41 PM »
More betterer.

If we repeal the Hughes Amendment then NICS would probably fall next. One step at a time...
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cordex

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2014, 11:31:01 PM »
If we repeal the Hughes Amendment then NICS would probably fall next. One step at a time...
Buying a machine gun on a 4473 alone is more than repeal of the Hughes Amendment.  That is repeal of the entire NFA.

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Re: Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazines
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2014, 11:38:35 PM »
Buying a machine gun on a 4473 alone is more than repeal of the Hughes Amendment.  That is repeal of the entire NFA.

I was thinking of the post 86 part, but yes you are correct. The steps I see are get suppressors non NFA, the SBRs, then SBSs, then reopen the registery, then shitcan the whole thing.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.