Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS  (Read 42202 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #150 on: April 19, 2008, 04:58:09 AM »
Could you cite specific instances of APS members defending these activities? 

APS members by default do not want government intervention in any private activity.  Since government is the ONLY enforcer of the law, their exclusion automatically condones all kinds of criminal behavior.
And yet you continue to hang around.
JD

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MicroBalrog

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #151 on: April 19, 2008, 05:04:02 AM »

APS members by default do not want government intervention in any private activity.  Since government is the ONLY enforcer of the law, their exclusion automatically condones all kinds of criminal behavior.

As  a matter of fact, I condone a variety of behavior that's currently illegal.

Motor racing, ownership of centerfire rifles, homeschooling and setting up private universities are all illegal where I live.

Illegal =/= necessarily bad and immoral, and the banning of an activity does not preclude me from discussing it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #152 on: April 19, 2008, 05:41:33 AM »
any of you folks watch larry king and the parade of folks who have left the flds over the years?   enlightening  they have been featured all week. the "interviews" with the group of flds women was interesting. reminded me of the tapes the north vietnamese released of our pows apologising for war crimes.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #153 on: April 19, 2008, 05:52:30 AM »
Quote
OK, gunsmith, tell us how you really feel.

Please be more specific?

Quote
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

What the heck are you guys insinuating here?

Am I wrong about USA history?
You mean, teenagers didn't marry and have kids in the 18th & 19th century?

AFAIK they DID! AFAIK the common age of death was in your 40's or 50's.
I could be wrong, hence "AFAIK"

Older people, while more suited (perhaps) psychologically to handle children.  Older people ARE LESS CAPABLE OF REPRODUCTION.
I'm strictly talking biology, not morality.I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL TEENS SHOULD MAKE BABIES OR THAT OLD MEN SHOULD WED TEEN GIRLS... I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL TEENS SHOULD MAKE BABIES OR THAT OLD MEN SHOULD WED TEEN GIRLS...  I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL TEENS SHOULD MAKE BABIES OR THAT OLD MEN SHOULD WED TEEN GIRLS...  I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL TEENS SHOULD MAKE BABIES OR THAT OLD MEN SHOULD WED TEEN GIRLS
Is that sufficiently clear?

Also, yeah! liberalism is a religion with no God, the main sacraments of this new religion,death cult, are abortion and gun control.

I'm sorry if this shocks and offends you...ok...I'm lying, I'm not sorry if people find my abhorrence of abortion and gun control shocking and vexing.

When I was 17, I got my 17 year old girl friend pregnant, I begged and pleaded and cajoled, everything in my power to get her to keep it, proposed on my damm knees even.
I was willing to do whatever it took to keep my baby but soul sucking vampire liberals convinced her to kill it, telling her it would "ruin" her life.
A year and a half later she was pregnant again with some other guys baby, she had it and her life wasn't magically transformed into a friggin greek tradgedy and her kid in now in Customs Enforcement.
However, I drank for years and years over losing my only kid.
I hate soul sucking vampire liberals , thats how I really feel!
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Hawkmoon

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #154 on: April 19, 2008, 05:54:37 AM »
Parental consent can lower the marriageable age.

Only consistent with state law.

Which in Texas does not allow marriage at 13 ...
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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #155 on: April 19, 2008, 05:58:10 AM »


    An old man came courting me
    Hey do a dority
    An old man came courting me
    Me being young
    An old man came courting me
    All for to marry me
    Maids when you're young never wed an old man

    Chorus
    For he's got no faloodorum, fadidledo doorum
    For he's got no faloodoorum, fadidleday
    He's got no faloorum, he's lost his ding doorum
    So maids when you're young, never wed an old man

    Now when we went to the church, hey do a dority
    When we went to the church, me being young
    When we went to the church, he left me in the lurch
    Maids when you're young, never wed an old man

    Chorus...

    Now when we went to our bed, hey do a dority
    Now when we went to our bed, me being young
    When we went to our bed, he neither done nor said
    Maids when you're young never wed an old man

   Chorus...

She threw her leg over him, hey do a dority
She threw her leg over him, her being young
She threw her leg over him, damn nearly smothered him.
Maids when you're young, never wed an old man.

    Chorus...

    Now when he went to sleep, hey do a dority
    Now when we went to sleep, me being young
    When we went to sleep, out of bed I did creep
    Into the arms of a handsome young man

    And I found his falodoorum, fa didle dodoorum
    I found his faloodoorum, fa didle all day
    I found his falodoorum and he got my dingdoorum
    so maids when you're young never wed an old man
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #156 on: April 19, 2008, 06:00:06 AM »
they are doing dna testing and trying to use birth cirtificates to sort out the baby rapers.  but since the last time when the birth certificates got some of these low lifes locked up they stopped doing birth certificates . smart lowlifes
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #157 on: April 19, 2008, 06:08:42 AM »
Quote
they are doing dna testing and trying to use birth cirtificates to sort out the baby rapers.

They are also saying no children were sexually abused, they are saying some TEENS may have had children.

So, if you have evidence of children under the age of 12 having sex or being raped, even MSM evidence, please post it because I missed it.

Also, Larry King? puhleeeze!
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Hawkmoon

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #158 on: April 19, 2008, 06:09:28 AM »
I think the judge was faced with an almost impossible situation, but I believe she made the right decision. And the DNA testing is the only thing that can begin to straighten out this mess. This is a case where the court really cannot accept the testimony of any of the "faithful," because when they take the oath to tell the truth, they place the instruction of their "prophet" to lie to "outside" authorities higher than they place their word of honour to the court. Speaking of "fruits of a poisoned tree," here's case in which almost all sworn testimony has to be assumed to be untrue.

I read some of the comments of a so-called "religious historian" who claims he has been studying the FLDS for almost 20 years. What I read didn't sound like the work of a legitimate historian, it sounded like the ravings of a dedicated apologist. For example, he said if you forget the polygamy, their theology is like the Baptists. Really? Which Baptist group accepts the word of Warren Jeffs as the word of G-d?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #159 on: April 19, 2008, 06:22:05 AM »
They are also saying no children were sexually abused


really?  who is "they"?  warren jeffs?

the folks on the king show were actually members of the flds church  as opposed to someone posting from vegas about what he emotes.

my first wife and i had sex when she was 14 and i was 15. and i still can't find it in me to wanna join these folks or defend em.   as a matter of fact my experience makes me believe that being biologically able doesn't make it right.  but your mileage may vary
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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seeker_two

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #160 on: April 19, 2008, 06:25:15 AM »
Clarification of my position....

Do I think something hinky is going on at the FLDS commune?.....YES.

Do I think it needs to be investigated?....YES.

Did CPS and local LEO's handle it correctly?....NO.

Were due process & civil rights violated?....YES.

Will some/all perps walk due to these errors?....LIKELY.

Is more harm being done to the kids than good?....VERY LIKELY.

Will lawsuits occur?....EXTREMELY LIKELY.

Will the only real winners be the "pro-bono" attorneys who take a large cut of the multi-million-dollar settlements against CPS & thestate of Texas?....SURE AS SUNRISE.

Any questions?......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #161 on: April 19, 2008, 06:33:59 AM »
Quote
my first wife and i had sex when she was 14 and i was 15. and i still can't find it in me to wanna join these folks or defend em.

AHA! So you're saying that teen sex is OK!!!

Do you still beat your wife? rolleyes
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #162 on: April 19, 2008, 06:50:12 AM »
actually if you read both sentences you'll find that i don't think teen sex is a good idea, even though it might be comforting to try to rationalize my own poor behavior.

and while i would dearly love to beat my wife sometimes i'm afraid to. how about you? you emote a postion on wife beating too?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #163 on: April 19, 2008, 06:57:33 AM »
DO YOU STILL BEAT YOUR WIFE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
Many questions, also known as complex question, presupposition, loaded question, "trick question", or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions"), is an informal fallacy or logical fallacy.[1] It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda.[1] An example of this is the question "Are you still beating your wife?" Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife, and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.[1]

The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.[1]

A related fallacy is begging the question,[2] in which a premise is included that is likely to be at least as unacceptable to an opponent as the proposed conclusion.[3]

    *

[edit] Implied form

One form of misleading discourse is where something is implied without being said explicitly, by phrasing it as a question. For example, the question "Does Mr. Jones have a brother in the army?" does not claim that he does, but implies that there must be at least some indication that he does, or the question would not need to be asked.[4] The person asking the question is thus protected from accusations of making false claims, but still manages to make the implication in the form of a hidden compound question. The fallacy isn't in the question itself, but rather in the listener's assumption that the question would not have been asked without some evidence to support the supposition. This example seems harmless, but consider: "Does Mr. Jones have a brother in jail?"

In order to have the desired effect, the question must imply something uncommon enough not to be asked without some evidence to the fact. For example, the question "Does Mr. Jones have a brother?" would not cause the listener to think there must be some evidence that he does, since this form of general question is frequently asked with no foreknowledge of the answer.

[edit] Types of complex questions

Each of these questions has an assumption built into the question that is asked:

    * Loaded questions: contain an incriminating assumption that the questioned person seems to admit to if she answers the question instead of challenging it. For example, "Are you still beating your wife?"
    * Buttering-up: actually asks two questions, one that the questioned person will want to answer "yes" to, and another that the questioner hopes will be answered with the same "yes". For example, "Could you be a nice guy and loan me five bucks?"
    * Legitimately complex questions (not a fallacy): A question that assumes something that the hearer would readily agree to. For example, "Who is the Queen of England?" assumes that there is a place called England and that it has a queen, both true.
    * Illegitimately complex question: On the other hand, "Who is the Queen of America" would commit the complex question fallacy because while it assumes there is a place called America (true), it also assumes it has a queen (false). But since this answering the question does not seem to incriminate or otherwise embarass the speaker, it is complex but not really a loaded question.[5]

[edit] Defense

A common way out of this argument is to not respond with a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer, but with a full statement that also includes context. To use an earlier example, a good response to the question "Do you still beat your wife?" would be either "I have never beaten my wife" or "I have never had a wife."[5] This removes the ambiguity of the expected response, therefore nullifying the tactic. However, the askers of said questions have learned to get around this tactic by accusing the one who answers with "dodging" the question. A rhetorical question such as "Then please explain, how could I possibly have beaten a wife that I've never had?" can be an effective antidote to this further tactic, placing the burden on the deceptive questioner either to expose his tactic or stop the line of inquiry.

[edit] Historical Example

Madeleine Albright (U.S. Ambassador to the U.N.) famously answered a loaded question, instead of challenging it, on 60 Minutes on May 12, 1996. Leslie Stahl asked, regarding the effects of sanctions on Iraq, "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Madeleine Albright: "I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it.”[6] She later wrote of this response

    I must have been crazy; I should have answered the question by reframing it and pointing out the inherent flaws in the premise behind it. … As soon as I had spoken, I wished for the power to freeze time and take back those words. My reply had been a terrible mistake, hasty, clumsy, and wrong. … I had fallen into a trap and said something that I simply did not mean. That is no one’s fault but my own.[7]
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #164 on: April 19, 2008, 07:03:10 AM »
long evasion there.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #165 on: April 19, 2008, 07:50:03 AM »
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/violation_or_salvation/

 
Home » Magazine » February 2007 » Violation or Salvation?
Feature
Violation or Salvation?
Prosecutors say its a sex crime. Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs says its counseling his flock.
February 2007 Issue
By John Gibeaut

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Title: Violation or Salvation?

 
Warren Jeffs at a preliminary hearing in November with defense lawyers Tara Isaacson, Walter Bugden and Richard Wright. His accusers say the case against Warren Steed Jeffs is about child sexual abuse and nothing more.

Jeffs defenders say the polygamist leader is a simple preacher, singled out for prosecution because of his beliefs. Either way, Jeffs stood as the supreme authority figure over a 14-year-old-girl who accuses him of forcing her to wed her 19-year-old first cousin.

Jeffs united the two in April 2001 during a clandestine religious ceremony without benefit of a state marriage license. Now 20, the accuser told a Utah judge in November that Jeffs controlled her existence--mind, body and soul.

I just constantly wanted to die because I was so scared, she told Washington County District Judge James L. Shumate at a hearing to determine whether Jeffs should stand trial on sexual abuse charges.

It was the darkest time of my entire life. It was one of the most painful things Ive ever been through.

Prosecutors have charged Jeffs, 51, as an accomplice to child rape. They say that he promised the girl salvation if she sexually submitted to her husband, and that he threatened her with damnation if she didnt. In mid Decem­ber, Jeffs was bound over for trial.

Jeffs heads the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, one of numerous sects that broke from the mainstream Mormon church after it banned polygamy in 1890. With an estimated 10,000 members in Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Texas and British Columbia, FLDS is the largest and perhaps best known group that still embraces the custom of men taking multiple wives. In all, authorities estimate that as many as 30,000 people continue to practice polygamy in the western United States and Canada.

It was our Mission

Under the FLDS brand of polygamy, god pairs men with young women--and often underage girls--through a revelation to Jeffs, who holds the title of prophet. Age is no consideration when God speaks through the proph­et. It was the only way of life Jeffs accuser knew growing up.

It was the highest honor we could ever imagine, she told the judge as the lanky, wide eyed defendant stared at her across the packed courtroom. It was what we lived for. ... It was our mission.

Jeffs awaits his fate in isolation at the thats right--Purgatory Correctional Facility--outside St. George in southwestern Utah.

Prosecutors in Mohave County, Ariz., also have charged Jeffs and eight male disciples with similar sex crimes against children. Civil suits in the same vein and more are under way in Utah. The criminal charges earned Jeffs a spot on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list before his capture in August outside Las Vegas after two years on the lam.

The cases against Jeffs dont stop at sexual abuse, as a far wider story of his unquestioned authority over his flock unfolds in courtrooms from Salt Lake City to northern Arizona. (See Bearing Witness, page 29.)

Prosecutors and lawyers for civil plaintiffs say their cases against Jeffs have nothing to do with polygamy or his beliefs. Instead, they say, the cases concern Jeffs actions.

Indeed, one civil complaint alleging that Jeffs and two of his brothers repeatedly molested a nephew reduces them to dangerous child molesters, serial predatory pedophiles and/or child rapists that posed a constant, serious and ongoing threat to children. Jeffs lawyer in the criminal matter agrees that poly­g­amy wont be an issue in the courtroom. In the prosecution of another FLDS member, the Utah Su­preme Court held in May that evidence intended to depict poly­g­amy as a healthy lifestyle was irrelevant to a charge of child sexual abuse.

But defense lawyer Walter F. Bugden Jr. of Salt Lake City says Jeffs polygamous beliefs nevertheless motivated prosecutors.

The prosecution of Warren Jeffs is nothing but religious persecution, Bugden declared to reporters after the November hearing in St. George. Even though the mainstream Mormon church banned polygamy more than 100 years ago and civil authorities later outlawed it as a condition for statehood, continued publicity about ongoing plural marriage practices remains a source of embarrassment for Utah officials. But Bugden says his client simply conducted a wedding service--outside the courts jurisdiction in Nevada--and later counseled the couple when the union appeared headed for the rocks.

Officiating at a wedding ceremony does not make Mr. Jeffs an accomplice to rape, Bugden said.

Washington County prosecutors declined comment. But Utah Attorney General Mark L. Shurtleff, whose office is assisting in the case, says the state has so many polygamists that it simply cant afford to prosecute them for practicing plural marriage alone without evidence of other, more serious crimes. Though bigamy, as po­lyg­amy is charged, can bring up to five years in prison, the sex charges against Jeffs carry maximum life terms.

For the most part, people like Warren Jeffs were left alone, says Shurtleff, who began taking a hard look at child abuse and other crimes in polygamous communities after he took office in 2001. I think people were comfortable to leave them alone and look the other way. But when I found out what was going on, I said we just cant look the other way.

Still, Shurtleff and other authorities say that taken as a whole, the FLDS belief system and lifestyle--including polygamy and the overall treatment of women --enable what amounts to institutionalized child rape and other forms of abuse.

The Entire Show

In Jeffs tale, all roads lead to a place the locals call Short Creek. Pronounced short crick in the regional dialect, its a dusty desert community of 6,000 that straddles the Utah Arizona state line. Women lead almost cloistered lives in Short Creek, where ankle length, pioneer style dresses are standard apparel. Theyre expected to obey their husbands--stay sweet in church parlance--and bear lots of children.

Jeffs, who reportedly has as many as 70 wives, presided over the faithful from inside a walled compound. Author­i­ties say he didnt just run the show in Short Creek, incorporated as Hildale on the Utah side of the line and as Colorado City on the Arizona side. Prosecutors in both states and dozens of civil plaintiffs say he was the show, commanding every aspect of life in Short Creek.

Jeffs assumed the role of prophet after the 2002 death of his father, Rulon Jeffs, who had headed FLDS since 1986. Authorities, however, say they believe Warren Jeffs actually began running things in the late 1990s after a series of strokes left his father disabled. By the time the elder Jeffs died, authorities say, Warren Jeffs controlled the police, the schools and most of the jobs in town. And they say he wielded ultimate power over family life as well. He could destroy fami­lies by exiling from the community men and boys who he determined violated FLDS doctrines. And he could build families by assigning women and girls to marry men often many years their senior.

Short Creeks remote location and the groups deep mistrust of outsiders geographically and socially isolate the FLDS enclave from the rest of Utah, Arizona and the world. Largely fueling that suspicion was a 1953 raid on the town by Arizona authorities in which 36 men were arrested on polygamy charges and nearly 350 women and children were removed to state custody. The lingering bitter aftertaste still leaves even FLDS dissidents reluctant to report abuse to child welfare authorities or law enforcement.

They wanted to destroy our culture, says Ross Chatwin, whom Jeffs excommunicated in 2004 after he refused the prophets order to leave his wife Lori and their six children. Seated next to her husband in the Short Creek home where they still live, Lori Chatwin crosses her index fingers as a warning to the state.

Family services? she says. Thats like, back off. My dad was 3 years old when they hauled him away. My mom was born in bondage, in the captivity of the state.

Polygamy lies at the core of FLDS doctrine. A man must have at least three wives to reach the highest level of heaven. Women can only ascend to heaven if husbands take them there. Thus, polygamy wields the formidable weapon of salvation over the heads of sometimes reluctant young brides.

Managed Competition

For polygamy to work as intended, church leaders must keep the male population in check to reduce the competition for suitable brides. Jeffs accomplished that in two ways, according to court documents and lawyers in the civil cases.

First, he would order parents to take their sons, some as young as 13, to distant cities and abandon them on the streets as punishment for such infractions as wearing short sleeves or ogling girls. Shurtleff, the attorney general, estimates that over the years Jeffs expelled as many as 400 lost boys in that fashion.

Second, Jeffs would banish men from the commu­nity, including some rival church leaders, often based on claims that they had mistreated their wives. He then would reassign the women to other men whom he deemed appropriate. At his disposal, Jeffs had an FLDS trust that owns most of the property in Short Creek. He used it to expel dozens of men by calling them tenants at will and claiming the power to evict them.

The Utah attorney generals office went to court and in 2005 succeeded in replacing Jeffs and members of his inner circle with new trustees, giving residents a chance to own their own homes.

Utah and Arizona also have moved to revoke certifications of the communitys police officers, whom authorities describe essentially as henchmen who carried out Jeffs orders. And the Utah Supreme Court in 2006 booted a polygamous local magistrate off the bench in Hildale, saying his illegal relationships with three women brought his office into disrepute.

Jeffs defaulted on the trust case and on cases brought on behalf of the lost boys and the nephew who accused him of molestation. A civil case filed for the 14 year old Utah bride is on hold pending resolution of the crimi­nal charges.

Jeffs and the church just refused to defend themselves, says Salt Lake lawyer Rodney R. Parker, who has represented the church and its members for 15 years. They felt they werent able to get a fair shake in the courts.

By defaulting in the trust case, Jeffs abandoned assets valued at $110 million. But he hasnt rolled over in the criminal case. For example, hes gone to federal court in Las Vegas to try to recover laptop computers, computer memory storage devices, and lists of individuals giving him money or providing him with safe houses. The FBI seized the items after Jeffs was arrested. He argues that they contain privileged communications between church members and their pastor.

However, Jeffs still will have to face his accuser in a Utah courtroom.

The girl learned that she was to marry after Jeffs evict­ed her father and moved the rest of her family into her uncles home, which had 30 bedrooms to accommo­date various wives and children. Years later she told the court that she wasnt ready to marry anyone, let alone her cousin.

She at first thought there was some mistake when her--uncle and father-in -aw-to-be--broke the news in early April 2001 that Jeffs had found a place for her. A few days later, she learned that the prospective groom was her cousin when he entered the room at a family gathering.

He walked directly over and sat right next to me, she recalled from the witness stand. It clicked in my mind.

She remembered her cousin as someone who bullied her as a young child and teased her about her weight.

I was horrified, she said. When I finally realized who they wanted me to marry, I got up and immediately walked out of the room. Despite protests to her uncle and to Jeffs, within a week, the girl said, she found herself in an auto cara­van with other child brides headed to a motel in remote Caliente, Nev., where Jeffs would conduct a series of ceremonies. In order to avoid arousing suspicion from police on the highway, the participants would only change into wedding garb once they reached their destination. Nor would Jeffs allow photographs as the girls came before him.

They didnt take pictures there because they didnt want the prophet to be placed in jeopardy, she testified. She remembers reluctantly taking the grooms hand, but stalling when Jeffs asked her to recite her vows.

I still couldnt say anything, and the silence became unbearable, she testified, remembering the 6-foot-5 Jeffs towering over her. He was drilling a hole in me with his eyes.

Eventually, she sputtered out a quick I do and gave the groom a peck on the cheek. Then she ran out and locked herself in a motel bathroom. I felt completely defeated and trapped.

FLDS doctrine requires women to submit unconditionally to men, though it speaks of sex euphemistically as husband wife relations and with phrases such as the familiar biblical command to be fruitful and multiply. Prosecutors say Jeffs became an accomplice to rape when he refused a series of requests from the girl to release her from the marriage.

I needed to go home and give myself--mind, body and soul to [my husband], the accuser testified, describing Jeffs reaction to one of her pleas. I felt devastated. I felt like no one would listen to me. I felt like a very wicked person. I felt hollow and numb, and I just didnt know what to do.

She finally left her husband in late 2004, after she turned 18.

Defense lawyers question how prosecutors can charge their client as an accomplice when the groom himself has not been charged with rape. Prosecutors, though, cite a 1999 Utah Court of Appeals decision upholding the accomplice conviction of a defendant who married off his 13 year old daughter to a 48 year old man, even though the man was a fugitive at the time of trial. State v. Chaney, 989 P.2d 1091.

One observer familiar with the case doesnt give Jeffs argument much of a shot.

This is just standard accomplice law, says Universi­ty of Utah criminal law professor Erik Luna. Does the head of a Mafia family have to be present at a hit? Of course not.

Like organized crime cases, getting witnesses to take the stand against Jeffs hasnt been easy. Five people with FLDS ties went to jail for contempt last summer in Arizona after they refused to testify to a federal grand jury investigating the church.

One of Jeffs brothers, Seth, pleaded guilty to harboring a fugitive after he was arrested in Colorado in late 2005 with $142,000 in cash, another $7,000 in prepaid phone and debit cards, and letters addressed to Jeffs. Seth Jeffs told FBI agents at the time that no FLDS member ever would help authorities find his brother.

So Utah prosecutors got a break when the girl came forward in early 2006 through her civil lawyers.

Jeffs could dispute the girls account. But he may do so at his own peril, because her story is consistent with FLDS teachings. So while denial of at least some elements could carry weight with jurors, Jeffs also risks losing credibility with his followers, who instead may view it as a denial of a central tenet of his--and their--faith.

Its a narrow path for him to walk, Luna says.

Though polygamy will likely stay out of the courtroom, defense lawyers do expect to use other aspects of religious freedom that revolve around the choice of words used by Jeffs and his accuser. The accuser testified in November that Jeffs never expressly told her to have sex or engage in intercourse. By the same token, she also testified that she never complained to Jeffs in so many words that she had been raped.

The governments theory is that the promise of salvation is tantamount to a threat, defense lawyer Bugden says. The problem is that the kind of remarks Mr. Jeffs makes are the same that any fundamentalist minister would make when counseling a young couple with marital difficulties--be fruitful and multiply, replenish the earth and that sort of thing. That sort of speech is protected by the First Amendment as religious freedom. For the state to twist this into a threat runs afoul of the First Amendment.

Thus jurors may have to decide whether to accept FLDS euphemisms about sex as equivalent to the real thing. Religion is not really the centerpiece of the defense, Bugden says. Its a factual defense.

Seeking Receptive Jurors

But first, Jeffs needs jurors who are willing to listen. That could be difficult, if not impossible, says FLDS lawyer Parker. He unsuccessfully defended church member Rodney Hans Holm, who was charged with big­amy and unlawful sexual conduct with a 16 year old, in 2003 in the same courthouse where Jeffs is expected to stand trial. (See Wedded to the Law, page 31.)

Parker says he encountered deep hostility toward his client from a jury pool that consisted mostly of older, mainstream Mormons, many of whom had retired and moved to St. George from Salt Lake City. Though the mainstream church and Utahs political establishment view polygamy as a black eye on the state, Parker says he mistakenly figured attitudes in St. George would be softer because prospective jurors had encountered FLDS members in their daily lives.

At one point, the judge commented that he was surprised at the level of prejudice that we encountered, Parker recalls. I thought the prosecutions case was weak, but the jurors didnt seem to have much trouble with it, Parker says. The eight jurors returned their verdict in about an hour. So what does that mean for Jeffs?

I think theyre going to have a helluva time getting a fair jury down there, Parker says.


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John Gibeaut is a senior writer for the ABA Journal.


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the sidebar in the link is good too   just makes it too long
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

mtnbkr

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #166 on: April 19, 2008, 08:01:34 AM »
I didn't even read the last two posts, but I'm going to close it before things get any more out of hand.

Chris