Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS (Read 42201 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2008, 07:07:10 PM »

funny was someone hurt? other than the folks killed before who spoke out against the church i mean.
heck if you listen to the church members who still "believe" 's version of what happen they come out wrong. but hey if someone wants to try to play em as victims, what ecer lifts your skirts. heck i have more tolerance for the westboro folks than these people. you don't find much support for em amongst the mormons thats for sure. but everybody has a fan club i guess

gunsmith · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2008, 09:55:09 PM »

A bunch of little kids, taken by the state.
Separated under threat of force, from their parents, yes in my book that means those little kids were hurt.

I think westboro folks are far worse, FLDS never sought out grieving people to hurt.
OF COURSE
Child abuse and things of that nature are wrong, that doesn't mean that these allegations are true.

seeker_two · « **Reply #27 on:** April 07, 2008, 01:29:22 AM »

Having worked for CPS and seeing first-hand their take on the investigative process and definition of child abuse (usually defined by UT social work grads), I'm going to wait until a judge sorts things out before I make any judgement calls on this one....

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #28 on:** April 07, 2008, 02:24:24 AM »

were this not a church that in fact, as opposed to fantasy, has institutionalized abuse. and made its self an active player in the planning and implementation of it. had its leader indicted for it and later convicted of it. actively financed and aided his being on the run. and having a history of offing those who oppose it. i might give em some slack. but since they own and operate the local towns and police forces they get no slack from me. heck the leaders still got more trials coming up. hey this is coming from a guy who liked young girls met wife one when she was 14 (i was 15) that said its different than some 40 year old pronouncing that some other 40 year old can marry his teenage cousin against her will. you fellers might be ok with that i'm not. the church/cult doesn't even deny most of it. they think its ok too. and are looking for new members. though i gotta warn ya you gotta be an oldtimer before they assign you wives

Glock Glockler · « **Reply #29 on:** April 07, 2008, 04:56:11 AM »

I love how in the minds of several here they're convicted and should be sent to be executed.

Last time I checked there was an ALLEGATION of abuse, if this was a situation about a guy who owned an "arsenal" whose kids were forcibly removed due to an allegation everyone here would be up in arms.

Did any of you catch the bit where the press wasn't allowed inside the compound?

The Annoyed Man · « **Reply #30 on:** April 07, 2008, 04:58:47 AM »

We're all a bunch of rightwing authoritarians, what do you expect? laugh

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #31 on:** April 07, 2008, 07:16:23 AM »

check more carefully
the guy they are looking for is a convicted abuser registered sex offender currently on probation . these guys don't pretend not to do whats alleged. they just think its ok. god tell em to. and like all flakes they get followers and supporters, for what ever reasons

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #32 on:** April 07, 2008, 07:18:10 AM »

this isn't about a 19 year old with a 17 year old g/f this guy is 50 something the girl he had the kid with was 15. maybe thats ok for some of you. you can't live in my neighborhood if thats the case

HankB · « **Reply #33 on:** April 07, 2008, 07:44:54 AM »

Obviously, serious allegations of forced "marriages" between 40-something adult men and early teen or pre-teen girls need to be investigated - and if shown to be true, the perps need to experience some tough - and I mean TOUGH - justice.

But too many of the news stories we're getting are completely screwed up.

The local channels here around Austin are reporting "Women and girls are being taken away by bus" . . . OK, I can see you want to protect the kids. But are ADULT women being taken away? Are the "women" only young teens themselves? Are they under arrest? Have they been charged? Do they consent to being hauled off? Are they free to go?

Way too many questions, few answers . . . I don't know what's actually going on.

And I doubt that anyone else posting here does, either.

Glock Glockler · « **Reply #34 on:** April 07, 2008, 07:52:04 AM »

cassandrasdaddy,

Do you like the idea of innocent until proven guilty or don't you? Why remove 50 people because there was an ALLEGATION of abuse against 1? If the guy running the show is breaking a law then he should be arrested and charged but I'm kinda irked when the govt. acts out of proportion to it's role.

Does it strike you odd that 50 girls are removed? This isn't about preventing abuse, it's about the govt. showing that it'll do what it pleases, it just starts with wacko Christian fringe groups because it knows that everyone will cheer them but eventually it'll start to hit closer to home.

I would hope the larger picture would be more apparent to many here.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #35 on:** April 07, 2008, 08:33:16 AM »

Quote from: Glock Glockler on April 07, 2008, 03:56:11 AM

I love how in the minds of several here they're convicted and should be sent to be executed.

Last time I checked there was an ALLEGATION of abuse, if this was a situation about a guy who owned an "arsenal" whose kids were forcibly removed due to an allegation everyone here would be up in arms.

Did any of you catch the bit where the press wasn't allowed inside the compound?

The press is usually not allowed into active crime scenes. What's your point?

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #36 on:** April 07, 2008, 12:08:48 PM »

perhaps if folks familiarized themselves with this group and how the operate things might be clearer. there is plenty of info available. there is a convicted abuser they are looking for as well the girl he had the kid with shes about 16 right now. these folks are refusing, as is their right, to identify themselves and help in anyway. this is sop for this group. they are true "heroes of the revolution" in that they actually have a position and are willing to back it. as opposed to being some variety of internet commando. no one is denying this feller had a kid with a girl almost 40 years younger than him. the church makes no secret that they arrange marriages like this amongst other things. if you are cool with that they are looking for manpower. i can't slither beneath that bar

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #37 on:** April 07, 2008, 01:35:50 PM »

Perhaps it might be time for some people to just say, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know about all of that stuff. Nevermind." But then, smoothing internet feuds has never been my strong suit.

Bogie · « **Reply #38 on:** April 07, 2008, 07:35:28 PM »

"somewhat legal" rape of a minor child is a reprehensible offense, and needs to be punished with whatever force may be brought down upon the "somewhat legal" rapists.

And if it's been happening for years...

gunsmith · « **Reply #39 on:** April 08, 2008, 01:01:44 AM »

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/apr/08/401-kids-in-custody-after-raid-on-sects-ranch/

Now it is 401 children, forcibly taken by the State.
They are going to place them in foster care with no charges placed against their parents!
They simply do not like the FLDS

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Meanwhile, state officials must now care for and find foster families for children who have led a mostly monastic life, one where pop culture is an anathema and the outside world is evil.

Good job statist! They grew up not being allowed to listen to Snoop Dawg holler about pimps and ho's, they do not own the latest wii or whatever, they don't like American Idle.
What crime have these little kids and their young moms done to allow the State to take them?
When did it become OK to take kids away from their parents because of religious beliefs?
If a Catholic Priest marries a man and woman then goes onto commit child abuse, we take the children away from the couple they married?

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They were accompanied by 133 women who came voluntarily and aren't bound to stay, state officials said.

Great, "you can leave, you just cant take you little brothers and sisters or children with you"
Hell of a devils bargain there!

I heard on the news, they located the man accused of marrying the 16 year old, he is in AZ and his probation officer said he has been there for years.
They should produce the alleged 16 year old with the baby or cut them all loose and pay a huge settlement for abuse of authority under color of law.

If I make a anonymous phone call I can destroy a whole Church?
Where do I call to destroy Westboro because they deserve it, not a bunch of little kids whose only crime is the leader of their parents is in jail.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #40 on:** April 08, 2008, 02:55:53 AM »

remember to put the shiny side out
"They were accompanied by 133 women who came voluntarily and aren't bound to stay, state officials said.
Great, "you can leave, you just cant take you little brothers and sisters or children with you"
there is some part of the word voluntary that is confusing you?

have you taken the time to research these folks long infamous history?

"If a Catholic Priest marries a man and woman then goes onto commit child abuse, we take the children away from the couple they married?"
if he knowingly married a 50 year old guy to his 15 year old cousin we'd put at least two of the folks in jail.

you seem a lil off on details. the girl was 15 when she had his kid that would make her a lil on the young side from where i sit but hey ymmv

Manedwolf · « **Reply #41 on:** April 08, 2008, 04:20:05 AM »

Gunsmith, you really, really need to read more on this "church" and its already-convicted leader before arguing to defend them. You can go back years...these aren't new allegations.

Really, it's like arguing to defend NAMBLA if you read on what they stood for and, in fact, did.

Glock Glockler · « **Reply #42 on:** April 08, 2008, 04:49:34 AM »

Manedwolf,

If I had a magic mirror and could find out what these guys are up to behind closed doors I actually would bet that plenty of stuff goes on that would make me request a .22 lobotomy for the guys that run that joint, but that's not the point. The point is whether or not the govt. is going to follow the law.

This guy might very well have been convicted previously, is he breaking some condition of his parole, or did he serve his time and now he's out? If so the state needs to follow their own rules and build a new case against him, just going in and removing other children who have nothing to do with the allegation and when no other evidence of abuse is apparent gives the govt. carte blanche to start doing that with everyone else they don't like, maybe like those wacky gunowners.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #43 on:** April 08, 2008, 04:58:58 AM »

why do you imagine, and i stress imagine, the government is removing the folks both voluntary and otherwise? and have you followed any of the actions of this group?

JohnBT · « **Reply #44 on:** April 08, 2008, 06:43:25 AM »

"I would hope the larger picture would be more apparent to many here. "

I think the larger picture is reasonably clear to the majority here. I think you are in the minority.

John

HankB · « **Reply #45 on:** April 08, 2008, 07:49:15 AM »

Just got back from the gym . . . TV there was reporting that they (Child Protective Services) were getting "emergency custody" of the children. The women were "free to leave" but their "husbands" and other men were not being allowed to leave the compound.

It's been a couple of days . . .

No arrests yet according to the news . . . how long can they hold people without arresting or charging them?

gunsmith · « **Reply #46 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:38:05 AM »

I am not "defending" anyone, I hate child abuse, despise it.
If they are found guilty of rape and abuse, I am all for hanging them in the public Square.

My point is that the gov't is just going around, willy nilly, yanking little kids from their parents and siblings, announcing it is permanent, and trying them in the media.

No due process? I mean real due process, you know, trials, charges etc.

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why do you imagine, and i stress imagine, the government is removing the folks both voluntary and otherwise? and have you followed any of the actions of this group?

I have followed the case a little, frankly I find the Jeff's conviction to be questionable, more political then legalistic.
"Rape as an accomplice" is what he is currently jailed for, yet afaik, he married them, he wasn't present when the rape occurred, so I had a hard time accepting him as an accomplice.
The guy who did the rape should be facing time alone.(imo) AGAIN THIS IS OPINION ONLY PLEASE DON'T LYNCH ME FOR AN OPINION, PLEASE!

As far as the first part of the question, I "Imagine" the gov't is removing folks based on the poor reporting in the press, am I wrong?

Jeffs is probably a real lowlife, but then again so are a lot of Hollywood movie stars, coaches and politicians etc,no one is taking their kids.
Even drug addled Britney Spears seems to get more rights then these folks.

They are taking the kids away from a wildly un popular jerk, but next week it could be from a large rural family that believes in God, Jesus, Allah or Buhdda
and home schools.
A week later a family reunion that features trap and skeet

A month down the road a bunch of kids at camp who say non denomination prayers get taken.

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Until courts in Utah intervened, Jeffs controlled almost all of the land in Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, which was part of a church trust, the United Effort Plan (UEP). The land has been estimated to be worth over $100 million. Currently, all UEP assets are in the custody of the Utah court system pending further litigation. In January 2004,

One hundred million bucks!?! Ooooooh, sweet, nothing to see here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The New York Times is reporting
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/us/08raid.html

That the subject of the warrant, Dale Barlow is in compliance with his probation and is in AZ and still no 16 year old girl or baby.

5 days and hundreds of interrupted lives is enough, fish or cut bait.

I bet that compound and the buildings are worth a bunch too.

I wish the Westboro thugs had this kind of money so we could have a witch hunt against them too.

roo_ster · « **Reply #47 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:44:22 AM »

Hey, if it saves only one life... rolleyes

JohnBT · « **Reply #48 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:47:48 AM »

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess they're being held as material witnesses. It takes some time to question that many people and search all of those buildings. What are there, nearly 40 residential buildings and numerous other buildings?

The Daily Telegraph reported that 133 women volunteered to stay with the children in protective custody.

"...judge has ordered every child removed from the ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because they were deemed to be either victims of abuse or at imminent risk of harm.

In all, 401 children have been removed since Friday and 133 women have chosen to stay with them in protective custody, said Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services which is the agency conducting the probe."

John

JohnBT · « **Reply #49 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:54:29 AM »

"My point is that the gov't is just going around, willy nilly, yanking little kids from their parents and siblings, announcing it is permanent, and trying them in the media."

You have yet to prove the gov't is doing anything "willy, nilly", or prove anything else really. Rants and absurd comparisons don't make for a factual, persuasive argument. They are getting due process. Are you so out of touch with the legal system that you think the process goes from the judge's order to remove the children from the threat of danger to a court trial in a week or two? They have to protect the children while they complete the invesigation, interviews, searches, etc.

I can't imagine what you'd be complaining about if the legal system actually went from investigation to trial in a period on one or two weeks. "No time to prepare a defense." "Rush to judgement." Okay, I guess I can imagine.

Sheesh.

John

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Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS (Read 42201 times)