Author Topic: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away  (Read 42200 times)

Gewehr98

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2010, 08:40:01 PM »
Quote
Brad, your argument can also be made about the commercial lenders and large financial houses.  They got themselves into this mess, and now we the people are having to bail them out.  Why the outrage over the poor financial management of individuals and not over corporations? 

I can answer that.

Because it's addressed in a different thread, and has been here ad nauseam.  The outrage is sitting over in those threads, just use the search function.

This thread is about people walking out on a mortgage as if their fecal matter won't smell bad afterwards.  IOW, defaulting on a loan agreement. That warrants a separate round of outrage.

Damned skippy that banks should hire lawyers to go after them for the amount of the loan after the foreclosure sale. 

Don't sign mortgage paperwork if you can't swing the loan terms.  How hard is that to grok? 
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Grandpa Shooter

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2010, 09:01:06 PM »
I can answer that.

Because it's addressed in a different thread, and has been here ad nauseam.  The outrage is sitting over in those threads, just use the search function.

This thread is about people walking out on a mortgage as if their fecal matter won't smell bad afterwards.  IOW, defaulting on a loan agreement. That warrants a separate round of outrage.

Damned skippy that banks should hire lawyers to go after them for the amount of the loan after the foreclosure sale.  

Don't sign mortgage paperwork if you can't swing the loan terms.  How hard is that to grok?  



Thank you Sir for keeping this on course, and recognizing what it is about.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 10:50:39 PM by Grandpa Shooter »

MillCreek

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2010, 09:10:37 PM »
Of course, I can see how real estate people and residential mortgage people, as quoted in the original post, would decry mailing the keys back to the bank.  What would happen to their business if this became common?  Nothing good, I am sure.  

But I work in healthcare where I see people default on their bills all the darn time.  My employer is one of the largest providers of charity healthcare on the West Coast.  We can't very well repossess their surgery or stuff the baby back up the pipe.  What should we do to collect on the debt, especially when they refuse to pay?  In this scenario, at least there is a house to repossess.

I just don't see where residential mortgage defaults should engender so much ire over and above defaulting on any kind of debt.  And especially since defaulting on business mortgages is a common business practice in the commercial real estate arena.  From what I read in the business press, we can likely expect a tidal wave of commercial loan defaults in the next several months.

Carrying any sort of debt carries an explicit or implicit commitment to pay it back, be it commercial lending, healthcare, housing, car, student loans or anything.  If you default, you should be held accountable, be you an individual or corporation.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:14:07 PM by MillCreek »
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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Gewehr98

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2010, 09:16:53 PM »
MillCreek, you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

Yes, there is outrage over banks with predatory lending practices that caused the housing bubble and subsequent burst. 

Yes, there is outrage over people not paying healthcare bills. 

The lack of such outrage for those particular causes in this particular thread is not an explicit approval by APS members.

This thread is a stand-alone commentary about people walking away from their mortgages, and somehow thinking that they'll do so without retribution, smelling fresh as a daisy afterwards.

Far from it. They defaulted on a binding loan agreement, and their legal obligations are still in force.  Banks are now hiring attorneys to recover, and very rightfully so. 

 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2010, 09:23:10 PM »
Banks are now hiring attorneys to recover, and very rightfully so.

nope  you walk they take the house and its usually all over. and some lenders have covered it with insurance
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2010, 09:31:25 PM »
Maybe a while ago, but now they're going after the former mortgage holders for the difference in the mortgage vs. the price the bank got for the property via the county sheriff afterwards.  Google "deficiency judgement in foreclosure".

You know, those sticky terms found in the mortgage.

Granted, if there's mortgage insurance still in effect and it covers the cost of the short sale or default, then all's hunky-dory.  Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

More here:

http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_55ec31b7-8c9c-5479-b5de-fbf602c50a7c.html

Note to the wise after walking away from a mortgage:  Don't exhibit any affluence for a long time afterwards!
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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"Never squat with your spurs on!"

MillCreek

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2010, 09:38:31 PM »
^^^ Very interesting how that article reported that threatening litigation after a short sale seems to be more of a scare tactic, at least in the northern San Diego county area.  No actual cases were found.  This is not an area of law that I follow or am familiar with, but I am familiar with the concept of only filing litigation if you have a reasonable hope of recovering enough to make it worth your while. 
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2010, 09:41:00 PM »
Of course, I can see how real estate people and residential mortgage people, as quoted in the original post, would decry mailing the keys back to the bank.  What would happen to their business if this became common?  Nothing good, I am sure. 

Actually it's better for me and the mortgage broker.  Repo usually equals a slightly lower purchase price vs other comparable homes on the market.  That measn easier qualification for the buyer and more surety of loan for the mortgage broker, which means more ease of purchase and surety of close for my client.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2010, 09:41:51 PM »
One real estate agent who specializes in short sales, Chris Mackey of Carmel Valley, said about 50 percent of the short sale contracts he has seen include the language before he requests its removal. Banks generally have removed the language, he said.

from the article
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2010, 09:44:29 PM »
we had a mcmansion development near here.  houses went for mid 400's  several of them sold for 180 plus recently after foreclosure.  i know several folks who have done short sales and have not been stuck for the shortfall. i think its up to you to check the fine print
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MillCreek

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2010, 09:49:54 PM »
Actually it's better for me and the mortgage broker.  Repo usually equals a slightly lower purchase price vs other comparable homes on the market.  That measn easier qualification for the buyer and more surety of loan for the mortgage broker, which means more ease of purchase and surety of close for my client.

Brad

Because I like to learn something every day, and I am not expert in this area, despite owning three houses over the years, a repo is better than what for you and the broker?  A short sale?  Is a repo also better for the home owner who defaults?  That article cited by G98 said that the lenders treat them both equally for future mortgages, except a short sale can qualify a couple of years quicker for a new loan.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2010, 09:53:48 PM »
Short sale is misleading.  'Approved' short sales happen all the time.  The mortgage holder approves the short sale so they can recover what funds they can and use the mortgage insurance to cover any remainder (less their deductable).

Unfortunately some people will put a home on the market as a short sale without ever contacting their mortage company about it.  Getting that mortgagor's official "WTF!!??" letter a couple days before closing tends to dampen the mood a bit.  The seller's usual response?  "Well, I hear they've been doing it for everybody.  What's the problem?"  Now the dipwad is not only stuck with a pissed-off lender who probably would have short sold if they'd only been approached up front, the seller is in default if the contract does not close on time (an undisclosed title defect does not an excuse make) and is potentially liable for buyer's related expenses.  Can you say 'Treble Damages' boys and girls?  I knew you could.


Because I like to learn something every day, and I am not expert in this area, despite owning three houses over the years, a repo is better than what for you and the broker?

I specifically stated why it is a potential positive.

Read.  It.  Again.

Brad
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:59:02 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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MillCreek

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2010, 10:00:22 PM »
I specifically stated why it is a potential positive.

Read.  It.  Again.

Brad

I am sorry if I was unclear.  You stated that a repo was a potential positive for you and a broker.  I asked you if a repo was better for you and a broker than other options of dealing with a default, such as a short sale.  Does a short sale make any difference whatsoever to the subsequent purchaser of a home; i.e. your client?  Does it complicate the sale or mortgage process for your client?
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2010, 10:02:51 PM »
i think a big key is staying in touch with the mortgage company. once upon a time i got in real trouble and when i talked with the mortgage guy was completely candid.  i think i almost scared him. they were quite considerate in working with me. they let me get 6 month in the hole awaiting a sale
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2010, 10:12:54 PM »
I am sorry if I was unclear.  You stated that a repo was a potential positive for you and a broker.  I asked you if a repo was better for you and a broker than other options of dealing with a default, such as a short sale.  Does a short sale make any difference whatsoever to the subsequent purchaser of a home; i.e. your client?  Does it complicate the sale or mortgage process for your client?

So long as the short sale has been tentively approved, no.  The only hitch is that any offer made must be approved by the selling mortgagor.  That normally only takes 1-2 business days.  Aside from that, no, there are no problems.

A true repo is a slightly different animal.  A HUD or VA repo has this nasty little clause saying that the reposessee can, within two years time, come back and satisfy the original lien against the property.  If that occurs, the current owner recovers their original investment in the property and hands back the keys.  (This only applies to the person who originally purchased the home as a reposessed property.  If it's been sold since, all bets are off.)  It's only happened once in our office during the entire time I've been in real estate.  It was a mess, the owner having put some 20 grand into improvements on a $40k house.  Turns out the guy was out to scam someone into giving him a free home remodel and had planned on using the clause to get the house back once someone renovated it.  Unfortunately for the poor lady that was out $20k, him being a scumbag and getting cought didn't get her any of her money back.

*edit to add* My info on the buyback clause is dated by several years.  They may well have changed it recently.  I'd need to verify before getting into an active negotiation.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 10:19:54 PM »
I hold banks responsible for their actions too. Aside from HTG you won't find many people on here who are pro-bailout.
And even I'm not pro-bailout in all areas.  There are good and necessary reasons to do certain things for banks (elastic money supply, prevention of cascading failures, preventing a collapse in the money supply), and there are dumbfrick stupid things to do with/for banks.  Most of the things done with/for the banks during the recent economic unpleasantness have been of the latter sort.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 10:24:01 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MillCreek

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 10:42:02 PM »
Quote
A HUD or VA repo has this nasty little clause saying that the reposessee can, within two years time, come back and satisfy the original lien against the property.  If that occurs, the current owner recovers their original investment in the property and hands back the keys. 

Ay, caramba!  That is quite the little potential land mine, there.  Something to bear in mind if I was ever to buy a government repo, then.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 10:46:23 PM »
Yep.  But, again, my info is dated by several years.  I haven't received any update notifications, but that's no guarantee that something hasn't changed.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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De Selby

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2010, 03:36:19 AM »
So long as the short sale has been tentively approved, no.  The only hitch is that any offer made must be approved by the selling mortgagor.  That normally only takes 1-2 business days.  Aside from that, no, there are no problems.



There can be tax consequences to this - the amount by which your loan was forgiven can add up to a nasty tax bill. 

The thing with a lawsuit against a consumer is that unless the person is either a) insured against the judgment or b) a property owner, the resulting judgment will be unsecured debt worth pennies on the dollar, if anything at all.  Judgment creditors are just barely above a guy holding an overdue invoice on the food chain.

In these cases, usually the person defaulting is losing his/her only real property, or all properties.  The property itself is the only thing of value you would be able to grab to satisfy the judgment.

Except for tax debts - the sovereign always has a really good position when it is the creditor, as in feudal times.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2010, 10:36:03 AM »
So long as the short sale has been tentively approved, no.  The only hitch is that any offer made must be approved by the selling mortgagor.  That normally only takes 1-2 business days.

We're getting close to the 4 month mark for approval on ours. Other offers have been pulled after it took long to get approval. In another instance where I knew both the buyer and seller it took about 3 months for the approval to finally come through.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2010, 11:22:32 AM »
There can be tax consequences to this - the amount by which your loan was forgiven can add up to a nasty tax bill. 

I'm talking about the buyer side, not the seller.


We're getting close to the 4 month mark for approval on ours. Other offers have been pulled after it took long to get approval. In another instance where I knew both the buyer and seller it took about 3 months for the approval to finally come through.

I'm guessing the loan is with a bank and not with a traditional mortgage underwriter.  4 days is normally a long time with most of the major mortgage players.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2010, 11:26:57 AM »
I'm guessing the loan is with a bank and not with a traditional mortgage underwriter.  4 days is normally a long time with most of the major mortgage players.

Brad


I'm actually curious about this.  How many mortgages remain with a traditional underwriter after closing?  We were told that our mortgage would likely be sold within 30 days....  Sure enough, it was bought by BofA within about 5 days of us closing. 
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GigaBuist

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2010, 11:29:57 AM »
I'm guessing the loan is with a bank and not with a traditional mortgage underwriter.

Yep, one of the big banks.  They move painfully slow.

Sawdust

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2010, 11:31:22 AM »
I don't understand how people can just walk away from their mortgage and think everything will be just ducky.

Their credit score will obviously take a huge hit, and whenever you apply to rent a place, the potential landlord will pull your report and see that you are a deadbeat.

Same with applying for a new job.

Sawdust
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GigaBuist

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Re: Mortgage too much? Join the crowd, walk away
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »
I don't understand how people can just walk away from their mortgage and think everything will be just ducky.

Their credit score will obviously take a huge hit, and whenever you apply to rent a place, the potential landlord will pull your report and see that you are a deadbeat.

Same with applying for a new job.

Sawdust

A former co-worker of mine walked away from a house and filed for bankruptcy around the same time.  That was four years ago.

He drove a used car for a while and had to rent houses, but four years later he purchased another house.

*shrug*