Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: T.O.M. on July 26, 2017, 09:04:17 AM
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http://www.newsweek.com/hitler-trump-germany-nazi-president-641392
Apparently, after the Trump speech at the Scout Jamboree, the left has taken to comparing the Boy Scouts to the Hitler Youth. The BSA, which has now opened the membership to homosexuals, transgender, and is on the verge of making the program co-ed across the board, is now in the sights of the left as a recruiting pool for Trump and his views. Between the changes in membership, the pull-out of LDS from the program, and now this, I'll be surprised if the BSA survives.
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Anybody not see this coming once Trump agreed to talk to the scouts?
While Trump probably shouldn't have gone so political in his speech, people don't need to take it out on the scouts. I mean, really - we're expecting the scouts to boo the POTUS? I see that many if not most of the "Hitler youth" stuff is coming from the usual celebrity and rich liberal knuckleheads, so once again, this is how you get Trump.
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http://www.newsweek.com/hitler-trump-germany-nazi-president-641392
Apparently, after the Trump speech at the Scout Jamboree, the left has taken to comparing the Boy Scouts to the Hitler Youth. The BSA, which has now opened the membership to homosexuals, transgender, and is on the verge of making the program co-ed across the board, is now in the sights of the left as a recruiting pool for Trump and his views. Between the changes in membership, the pull-out of LDS from the program, and now this, I'll be surprised if the BSA survives.
Surprisingly the left isn't wearing the skin of the Boy Scouts and demanding respect after they gutted it. They just want it dead. That's surprisingly out of character, their hatred for the formerly great institution must have been especially strong.
Also, good reminder that caving to the left never gets you respect, it only loses you your strongest defenders. Good job, BSA!
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Also, good reminder that caving to the left never gets you respect, it only loses you your strongest defenders. Good job, BSA!
This. If you knuckle under one inch; they will demand that you low-crawl for a mile. Or you're a fascist.
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Catering to your enemies instead of your friends is a poor policy, as several gun companies have learned.
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And the hit (pieces) just keep coming!
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/28/time-has-come-for-every-red-blooded-god-loving-patriot-to-sever-ties-with-boy-scouts-america.html
Long and short, a good American will quit BSA and send their kids to Trail Life USA, a Christian based, Christian focused outdoor program. Yeah. Sure.
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And the hit (pieces) just keep coming!
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/28/time-has-come-for-every-red-blooded-god-loving-patriot-to-sever-ties-with-boy-scouts-america.html
Long and short, a good American will quit BSA and send their kids to Trail Life USA, a Christian based, Christian focused outdoor program. Yeah. Sure.
That's exactly what this Eagle scout is doing. Boy Scouts have surrendered and will only continue to do debase the organization. As the most important purpose of any such organization is the physical, mental, and spiritual development of my son*, I'm not about to use him to fight a fight that the organization is determined to fold on.
I've seen this movie play out with the Girl Scouts already and I'd rather not be subjected to it happening when I can avoid it.
*You, of course, are free to substitute your own progeny here.
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That's exactly what this Eagle scout is doing. Boy Scouts have surrendered and will only continue to do debase the organization. As the most important purpose of any such organization is the physical, mental, and spiritual development of my son*, I'm not about to use him to fight a fight that the organization is determined to fold on.
I've seen this movie play out with the Girl Scouts already and I'd rather not be subjected to it happening when I can avoid it.
*You, of course, are free to substitute your own progeny here.
So it's like the public schools. Some parents think they need to get their kids safely out; some think they and their kids need to stay and fight the good fight. There is no one right answer for everyone. Use your own judgment.
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Yep, American Heritage girls are rapidly growing and expanding, while Girl Scouts are rapidly declining (hence the upcoming merger with BSA). And Trail Life is growing as well. The Mormon Church is in the process of developing their own Scouting Program to take over once the BSA/GSA merger takes place. They already have their own Teen Programs for their youth in lieu of BSA's Co-Ed Venturing program. And the Mormon Church is probably the largest contingent of the BSA.
Bullet meet foot.
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Yep, American Heritage girls are rapidly growing and expanding, while Girl Scouts are rapidly declining (hence the upcoming merger with BSA). And Trail Life is growing as well. The Mormon Church is in the process of developing their own Scouting Program to take over once the BSA/GSA merger takes place. They already have their own Teen Programs for their youth in lieu of BSA's Co-Ed Venturing program. And the Mormon Church is probably the largest contingent of the BSA.
Bullet meet foot.
From what I'm hearing, LDS has the program ready to roll, and will be starting it fully in the next year or two. The merger between BSA and GSA may have hit a snag...fighting over, of all things cookies and the trademarks GSA holds on the cookies. Don't want to share with BSA.
All I know is this, I've got a troop of 40 Scouts who don't give a crap about any of the national policies or politics. They want to camp, hang out together, and learn some stuff they don't teach in school. For now, I'll keep working with them, and other local units, because it's worth it. Screw national. We'll be at the camfire.
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Is anything left of GSA besides cookie sales? Seriously, I think that's all they do.
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Is anything left of GSA besides cookie sales? Seriously, I think that's all they do.
A friend who is a GSA troop leader has her Scouts do more than sell cookies, but they do spend a fair amount of time selling cookies.
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Is anything left of GSA besides cookie sales? Seriously, I think that's all they do.
That's what has my local GSA leader up in arms. She says the program (and all the supporting documents, guide, binders, etc.) that the BSA provides to the leaders is light years ahead of what the GSA provides. Especially at the Cub Scout level, and the GSA provides nothing like that.
I've heard the Cookie issue has been resolved. Since I'm a Unit Commissioner, I got an email that basically said "It's coming next year!" We have a Council Combined Committees Meeting this Saturday. I expect to find out more.
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That's what has my local GSA leader up in arms. She says the program (and all the supporting documents, guide, binders, etc.) that the BSA provides to the leaders is light years ahead of what the GSA provides. Especially at the Cub Scout level, and the GSA provides nothing like that.
I've heard the Cookie issue has been resolved. Since I'm a Unit Commissioner, I got an email that basically said "It's coming next year!" We have a Council Combined Committees Meeting this Saturday. I expect to find out more.
I'm guessing you have better contacts than I do. I'm just hearing from friends who volunteer at district/council level. Cookie money would be a nice addition, not that we'll need it the way things are going...
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Is anything left of GSA besides cookie sales? Seriously, I think that's all they do.
Very much so!
They have a very active program for liberal political indoctrination and LBQTCISXEIEIOism.
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Yep, American Heritage girls are rapidly growing and expanding, while Girl Scouts are rapidly declining (hence the upcoming merger with BSA). And Trail Life is growing as well. The Mormon Church is in the process of developing their own Scouting Program to take over once the BSA/GSA merger takes place. They already have their own Teen Programs for their youth in lieu of BSA's Co-Ed Venturing program. And the Mormon Church is probably the largest contingent of the BSA.
Bullet meet foot.
The Mormon Church pulling out will likely be the nail in the coffin for the BSA.
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The Mormon Church pulling out will likely be the nail in the coffin for the BSA.
The GSA has been limping along for decades. I'm quite certain the BSA can survive just as well!
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I'm guessing you have better contacts than I do. I'm just hearing from friends who volunteer at district/council level. Cookie money would be a nice addition, not that we'll need it the way things are going...
I forwarded you the email I got as a Commissioner. They want us spun up so that when this happens we can "help" our units.
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Folks here know I'm generally socially liberal. And my take is, the BSA were morons for giving in to demands of an extreme minority of marginal scouts. Yes, I'm aware it's hard for an organization to fight off legal battles of dozens of angry activists. But they should have dug in their heels. WHILE offering to help support special scouts for whatever niche group. "You want Scouts to accept Apache attack helicopters as a valid alternative gender? Fine. You're now the Apache Helicopter Scout Troop #1. Have a nice day. Insurance premiums are $10,000. Due net 30 or your chapter is disbanded."
By giving in not just to SJW but every Safety Gestapo and Tile Crawler Sue Happy lawyers to serve them papers, they gutted themselves. They could have tried to get a legal shield, like the gun manufacturers did. Instead, they caved and caved and caved. Until except for a handful of well led troops, their numbers dropped like a rock. Lawfare and poor leadership killed the Scouts. I'm sure the name and brand will survive for couple more decades.
Freedom of association sure has taken a beating over the last couple decades. Take any association with any substantial meaning, and try to reduce it to the lowest, most meaningless common denominator while crying a river over individual edge cases that couldn't make the cut.
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I forwarded you the email I got as a Commissioner. They want us spun up so that when this happens we can "help" our units.
Could you PM a copy my way? I'm one of the leaders for the new/11 year-old scout patrol in our troop.
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Folks here know I'm generally socially liberal. And my take is, the BSA were morons for giving in to demands of an extreme minority of marginal scouts. Yes, I'm aware it's hard for an organization to fight off legal battles of dozens of angry activists. But they should have dug in their heels. WHILE offering to help support special scouts for whatever niche group. "You want Scouts to accept Apache attack helicopters as a valid alternative gender? Fine. You're now the Apache Helicopter Scout Troop #1. Have a nice day. Insurance premiums are $10,000. Due net 30 or your chapter is disbanded."
By giving in not just to SJW but every Safety Gestapo and Tile Crawler Sue Happy lawyers to serve them papers, they gutted themselves. They could have tried to get a legal shield, like the gun manufacturers did. Instead, they caved and caved and caved. Until except for a handful of well led troops, their numbers dropped like a rock. Lawfare and poor leadership killed the Scouts. I'm sure the name and brand will survive for couple more decades.
Freedom of association sure has taken a beating over the last couple decades. Take any association with any substantial meaning, and try to reduce it to the lowest, most meaningless common denominator while crying a river over individual edge cases that couldn't make the cut.
The real battle was before that. The "No Gay Leaders" fight. The problem wasn't ideology, but money. United Way which had provided about 25% of BSA's (Local through National) operating funds, pulled their funding. Other large corporate donors did the same. The total loss to the BSA was between 50% and 75% depending on location.
And yes, the Lawfare, both "Inclusion" and "Safety", also decimated many BSA coffers (along with the sexual abuse cases that came out). While other areas are shrinking in membership, the units in the western Suburbs are actually growing. We increase by 3-5% each year. That's both district (currently at 65 units), and Council (9 districts).
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Could you PM a copy my way? I'm one of the leaders for the new/11 year-old scout patrol in our troop.
I emailed it to you, too big/graphics for a PM.
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Amy has an interesting point about the sex abuse cases. I had read an analysis of the large number of claims to date and the insurance litigation in some of my legal/risk journals. I always thought it was interesting about the issues over gay Scouts/leaders in view of the number of cases and payouts involving straight white male leaders abusing male Scouts. In terms of actual legal cases and payouts, the Scouting leadership time would have been more profitably spent on weeding out the pedophiles than worrying about the gays. One of my neighbors is a Scouting leader, and he tells me about all the training on this he now has to take, and he is supposed to rarely, if ever, be alone with a Scout because of all this.
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Amy has an interesting point about the sex abuse cases. I had read an analysis of the large number of claims to date and the insurance litigation in some of my legal/risk journals. I always thought it was interesting about the issues over gay Scouts/leaders in view of the number of cases and payouts involving straight white male leaders abusing male Scouts. In terms of actual legal cases and payouts, the Scouting leadership time would have been more profitably spent on weeding out the pedophiles than worrying about the gays. One of my neighbors is a Scouting leader, and he tells me about all the training on this he now has to take, and he is supposed to rarely, if ever, be alone with a Scout because of all this.
True. They call it Two Deep Leadership, meaning there must be two adults present at all time with Scouts. There's also a Buddy System, meaning that no adult can meet one on one with a Scout in private. So, you do one-on-one meetings off to the side of a full meeting, within sight of everyone.
Funny, a few years back, I was doing a child custody case, in which the father was a convicted child molester of two girls. He was asking for custody of his son. His argument? He was a straight pedophile, not a gay one.
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Amy has an interesting point about the sex abuse cases. I had read an analysis of the large number of claims to date and the insurance litigation in some of my legal/risk journals. I always thought it was interesting about the issues over gay Scouts/leaders in view of the number of cases and payouts involving straight white male leaders abusing male Scouts. In terms of actual legal cases and payouts, the Scouting leadership time would have been more profitably spent on weeding out the pedophiles than worrying about the gays. One of my neighbors is a Scouting leader, and he tells me about all the training on this he now has to take, and he is supposed to rarely, if ever, be alone with a Scout because of all this.
That training is required I think nearly every year as well. I know I've taken it at least 4 times.
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True. They call it Two Deep Leadership, meaning there must be two adults present at all time with Scouts. There's also a Buddy System, meaning that no adult can meet one on one with a Scout in private. So, you do one-on-one meetings off to the side of a full meeting, within sight of everyone.
Funny, a few years back, I was doing a child custody case, in which the father was a convicted child molester of two girls. He was asking for custody of his son. His argument? He was a straight pedophile, not a gay one.
Yes, when I meet with Scouts for Merit Badges, it happens at one of three places: Their Troop meeting, McDonald's, or the Public Library. I ask that they bring a fellow scout or parent.
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I emailed it to you, too big/graphics for a PM.
Thanks. That made it sound like the gist is possible organizational cooperation/merger with GSA, but not "program"-level co-ed integration. That is, there wouldn't be co-ed patrols, or possibly even co-ed troops. Is that a correct summation?
Re: Some LDS perspective re: the LDS church pulling out of Scouts. I think it's inevitable, given the direction BSA has been going, but I don't know how soon it will be. Co-ed units would certainly hurry it along. Our church has representatives on the National Executive Board of the BSA, including the current National Commissioner. So in some ways the LDS church has a good bit of sway on decisions, but the BSA has also pulled parliamentary maneuvers in the recent past to push through decisions when LDS board-members were absent.
A very big factor for the LDS church that's completely separate from all the recent BSA drama is the fact that we have youth in countries all over the world, and the Boy Scouts of America is only available in . . . America, so I think a departure from BSA will happen at some point regardless of any self-immolation the BSA undergoes as we are looking for a unified program for our youth across the world. The recent departure from the Varsity and Explorer programs was only surprising in that it didn't happen sooner. The 14-18 year old young-men programs in most congregations have never really closely adhered to those programs, largely due to many boys losing interest as they age out of regular Boy Scouts.
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and the Boy Scouts of America is only available in . . . America
I was thinking scouts have been around the world for quite some time, but I have no idea how big it is in other parts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members
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The recent departure from the Varsity and Explorer programs was only surprising in that it didn't happen sooner. The 14-18 year old young-men programs in most congregations have never really closely adhered to those programs, largely due to many boys losing interest as they age out of regular Boy Scouts.
The impression we were given was the at least initially Cub Scouting will be Co-ed.
And Varsity scouting isn't all that big. And it's Sports oriented. We don't have any Varisty Crews in our entire council.
Venturing (which is more high Adventure and Co-Ed for 14-21 yo youth) is what LDS pulled out of recently. They focus on one of more high adventure type activities like Whitewater Rafting, Rock Climbing, Shooting Sports, etc.
Exploring is more career based (We have Veterinary, Police, and Fire Exploring Posts in our council, I can't see the LDS dropping those any time soon) for 14-21 yo youth. Again Co-Ed, but not camping and like, they go to Vet's office or the Police Station/Fire House for their meetings. Those are run by the Vet, Police Dept or Fire Dept, and not so much by the BSA.
It will be interesting.
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I don't know how Varsity scouting is surviving. Kids that age into sports are generally involved in either club/travel programs or school programs. Exploring survives because of law enforcement and fire programs primarily, but some others like Scout...Amy...mentioned. Venturing is available in my area, just not as popular.
I've heard Cubs are going to be co-ed, like Venturing. The future of Scouting is yet to be determined. But I know of at least two possible suits based on refusal to admit females, citing to the value of an Eagle Scout medal for future employment, military enlistment, etc. Wonder how much that will come into play in the eventual decision.
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But I know of at least two possible suits based on refusal to admit females, citing to the value of an Eagle Scout medal for future employment, military enlistment, etc. Wonder how much that will come into play in the eventual decision.
So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?
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Oops, yeah, not Explorer scouts (I don't deal with the older kids, and they've changed that stuff around a bit, the last 25 years), yeah it was Varsity and Venturing the LDS church pulled out of. As mentioned, I've never been in a ward/congregation that really did the actual Varsity or Venturing programs, so that exit was no surprise. The older boys do plenty of high-adventure stuff in the summers, but nothing really formal within those programs.
I was thinking scouts have been around the world for quite some time, but I have no idea how big it is in other parts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members
There are definitely other organizations, but they're completely separate organizations from the BSA only loosely associated by general mission and ideological origin. It'd be quite a mess to try integrate with the different local Scouting organizations in every single country.
So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?
It's less about giving girls more opportunities as it is about attempting to water-down differences. Differences are bad-think and double-plus ungood.
A(n effective) girl scouting organization (not to be confused with Girl Scouts) could create a program that would equate the effort, focus, drive, and usefulness of an Eagle Scout award, but for girls, and be more focused on things girls find interesting and useful. But They're not interested in such things. They're only interested in sameness.
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Boy Scouts apologizes for Trump's speech:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/27/539802987/boy-scouts-chief-apologizes-for-political-rhetoric-in-trumps-speech
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So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?
Because leftists are like Melkor. They cannot create, they can only mangle and corrupt the good until it serves their purpose.
(From which we get this modus operandi:
1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.
#lefties (https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/664089892599631872?lang=en))
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Boy Scouts apologizes for Trump's speech
They apologized? But Trump said it was "the greatest speech that was ever made to them (http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/08/01/trump-touting-imaginary-calls-about-imaginary-praise-awful-performances/)"? :facepalm:
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Folks here know I'm generally socially liberal. And my take is, the BSA were morons for giving in to demands of an extreme minority of marginal scouts. Yes, I'm aware it's hard for an organization to fight off legal battles of dozens of angry activists. But they should have dug in their heels. WHILE offering to help support special scouts for whatever niche group. "You want Scouts to accept Apache attack helicopters as a valid alternative gender? Fine. You're now the Apache Helicopter Scout Troop #1. Have a nice day. Insurance premiums are $10,000. Due net 30 or your chapter is disbanded."
By giving in not just to SJW but every Safety Gestapo and Tile Crawler Sue Happy lawyers to serve them papers, they gutted themselves. They could have tried to get a legal shield, like the gun manufacturers did. Instead, they caved and caved and caved. Until except for a handful of well led troops, their numbers dropped like a rock. Lawfare and poor leadership killed the Scouts. I'm sure the name and brand will survive for couple more decades.
Freedom of association sure has taken a beating over the last couple decades. Take any association with any substantial meaning, and try to reduce it to the lowest, most meaningless common denominator while crying a river over individual edge cases that couldn't make the cut.
I wish more organizations would dig their heels in as well, but in some ways understand why some just give in. Refer to the Christian bakery in Oregon that was fined $135K by the state and lost their business for digging in heels.
I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice". Start your own group (like the Mormons are doing*) and set whatever philosophy you want.
*And they're not the ones who should have to be starting their own organization. Marnoot should pipe up since I only have "headline knowledge", but AFAIK, they were hunky dory with BSA until BSA started changing their core values.
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I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice".
It's how you "fundamentally transform" America. To put it another way, it's how you destroy America, erecting a "progressive" "liberal" European-style democracy in its place.
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Marnoot should pipe up since I only have "headline knowledge", but AFAIK, they were hunky dory with BSA until BSA started changing their core values.
I've piped-up above, but to go more into that specific if BSA hadn't turned into a SJW doormat the LDS church would be more likely to have stuck with BSA long term. The church still had/has the desire and need for a unified program for boys and young men throughout the world. If the BSA hadn't started the string of caving-in it could have gone two ways:
1) Stick with BSA in the United States and develop a similar church-run program for boys in other countries.
2) Develop a similar church-run program for boys in all countries and withdraw from the BSA.
With things being what they actually are, I see option 2 as inevitable. Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.
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I've piped-up above, but to go more into that specific if BSA hadn't turned into a SJW doormat the LDS church would be more likely to have stuck with BSA long term. The church still had/has the desire and need for a unified program for boys and young men throughout the world. If the BSA hadn't started the string of caving-in it could have gone two ways:
1) Stick with BSA in the United States and develop a similar church-run program for boys in other countries.
2) Develop a similar church-run program for boys in all countries and withdraw from the BSA.
With things being what they actually are, I see option 2 as inevitable. Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.
That matches conversations I've had with LDS Scout leaders in the recent past. LDS wants a youth organization. BSA had a solid program in place. Rather than reinvent the wheel, they went along, but still had a desire to have one of their own. Don't know if the social issues made up their minds, but it sure didn't hurt their desire to have a program of their own.
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I wish more organizations would dig their heels in as well, but in some ways understand why some just give in. Refer to the Christian bakery in Oregon that was fined $135K by the state and lost their business for digging in heels.
I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice". Start your own group (like the Mormons are doing*) and set whatever philosophy you want.
Hate to say it comes down to money. but it does. With BSA, they've got pending/possible litigation in several states, in state and federal court, regarding girls in BSA. At the same time, they're still dealing with the wreckage of the gay issues, and the financial/membership losses from that. And they're anticipating the losses that will come when LDS pulls all of the boys from the program, which is estimated to be around 16%-20% of the current membership (2.4 million Scouts). And with that loss of membership will come the loss of funds from Mormon donors.
Once upon a time, in Title IX, there was a specific provision allowing for single sex organizations including, by name, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. What's now being argued is, like Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed., separate but equal ain't flying here, because they are separate and unequal. BSA is arguing that it's a private organization, it's permitted under Title IX, and it's tradition and a key part of the program. Argument back? Scouts are co-ed in a lot of countries. Laws change to reflect the society they were made for. And, lots of traditions die off because of progress. Women graduated Ranger School, and may soon be going to BUDS. They may have to argue that the exceptions in Title IX are unconstitutional, which depending on how "progressive" the judge is, may or may not happen. Bottom line is that for an organization losing money by the bucketful, looking down the barrel of expensive litigation in several courts isn't a great view. And, even if they win, how long will this last? Dems win control over one or both houses next time, Title IX gets amended to remove the protections, and BSA/GSA as single sex organizations are history. Even if Dems don't win, some RhINOS may do this for them.
Got Scout meeting tonight. Hope to hear our newest Eagle passed his Board of Review.
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It's less about giving girls more opportunities as it is about attempting to water-down differences. Differences are bad-think and double-plus ungood.
A(n effective) girl scouting organization (not to be confused with Girl Scouts) could create a program that would equate the effort, focus, drive, and usefulness of an Eagle Scout award, but for girls, and be more focused on things girls find interesting and useful. But They're not interested in such things. They're only interested in sameness.
Actually it is about giving girls more opportunities. Think about it. No men are allowed to be GSA leaders. So they don't camp very much (maybe in someone's backyard, but not "out in the woods"), because the Mom's/Leaders don't like camping. Also they don't do cool stuff. Like I said, the Cubmaster's daughter who is older than her brothers, like going on the Pack Campouts and to the the Den meeting because they do "Fun Stuff", unlike her GSA Troop. And the GSA has the Gold Award, which is the equivalent of Eagle Scout. But no one knows that. No one even knows what a Gold Award is. Everyone knows "Eagle Scout", they may not know the hows or whys, but they know it's a big deal.
And that's where Girl Scouts loses their members, they don't do the Cool and Fun stuff that Boy Scouts do.
Just compare magazines
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_-VxKllBZXP4%2FTQjlpcOUtBI%2FAAAAAAAAA9M%2FRtrz290XU00%2Fs400%2Fjustine.jpg&hash=d33d3625d1d56b4d56558a7a1ec2e11f8cf77cfb)
(https://mojosavings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/boys-life-magazine.jpg)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.s-nbcnews.com%2Fi%2Fnewscms%2F2016_38%2F1159832%2Fgirls-life-boys-life-amyschumer-insta-tease-today-160921_5dd8fdd988cfb26ee3322873e049d1e3.jpg&hash=8d4fc51eaec15a25c9495c08a527dc3e41ee3918)
It's not that hard to understand why many pre-teen and teenage girls want to be in Cub/Boy Scouts.
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My point was just that someone could start a girl scouting organization (again, not GSA) that was just as fun and effective as BSA has been historically, even be an allied organization of the BSA. Rather than do that, they've attacked the BSA and are trying to re-form it in the process.
I'm sure much of the pressure on the BSA is from what you say, girls that just want to do the BSA-type stuff since GSA sure doesn't, I've no problem with them and am sympathetic to the lack of a good program for them. My problem is with the more shrill SJW voices insisting girls must be the same as boys, and therefore must belong to the exact same organizations as boys, filing lawsuits to force a private organization at proverbial gunpoint to admit members the organization was never designed or intended for.
Done well, I'd have no issue with a combined Scouting organization that ran very similar, but perhaps appropriately different, programs for boys and girls, with gender-specific patrols/dens. However the SJW-folk won't be happy until troops and patrols are all co-ed, LGBTBBQ+ and other-kin friendly and requirements, ranks, and awards are all watered-down beyond recognition.
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A girl's group is talking about fashion? What's next? A boy's group racing toy cars? :old:
Surely there are (or could be) youth-oriented groups that teach outdoor skills, but without being gender-based. Surely, we don't have to sacrifice something as vital as gender distinctions to achieve that.
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That training is required I think nearly every year as well. I know I've taken it at least 4 times.
Youth Protection is required every two years. ;)
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Surely there are (or could be) youth-oriented groups that teach outdoor skills, but without being gender-based. Surely, we don't have to sacrifice something as vital as gender distinctions to achieve that.
Surely there could be, and no reason not to, but must it be created by essentially forcing an existing gender-based organization to fill the role?
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Surely there could be, and no reason not to, but must it be created by essentially forcing an existing gender-based organization to fill the role?
It must be, or you're a facist!!11
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Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.
Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.
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Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.
Not sure what you're getting at with that non-sequitur, though I don't disagree in the slightest. Requirement-lax Eagle Scout mills are a problem with troops inside and outside the LDS church, and in fact is one of many problems I've had with the BSA. I'm actually not quite so big a BSA fan as my posts might suggest. I'm absolutely against the SJW-pressured changes to the BSA, and I actively support and work with the Scouts I lead to get their requirements (legitimately) fulfilled, but I'm not going to miss it awfully when the LDS church goes to its own alternative. I've had issues with some of the council/district-level financial management, fundraising issues, some of the rank requirements, etc. for years.
I think it's a great program for many, even most, boys. I don't think it's a great fit for every boy, and thus will welcome the extra flexibility a church-run program will provide for the youth I work with. The above thoughts are certainly my own, though; there are many hardcore pro-BSA types in my local congregation that will be quite sad about a departure.
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Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.
In my area, any Scout going for his Eagle must appear before a board made up of volunteers chosen by the district. The goal is to verify that the Scout satisfied the requirements. This includes testing the Scouts knowledge and skills (as best as can be done in a meeting room). Only when that board signs off has the Scout earned Eagle.
In my own Troop, fathers are not permitted to sign off requirements for their own sons. Avoids daddy giving his sons badges without truly meeting the requirements.
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In my own Troop, fathers are not permitted to sign off requirements for their own sons. Avoids daddy giving his sons badges without truly meeting the requirements.
I wish that was a BSA-wide rule. Even without the nepotistic situations like that, you also get situations where leaders let themselves get pressured by parents into passing-off a boy for some activity he missed, for instance, though that's a leader-not-having-a-backbone issue, not a BSA issue.
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What about a firearm-centric scouting org?
Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.
That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.
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What about a firearm-centric scouting org?
Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.
That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.
Boy Scout Snipers of America - I like it.
Or just add some more outdoor skills to Appleseed, if you want to make it co-ed.
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Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.
The Boy still has to prove his knowledge and skills at his Boards of Review for each rank. While Dad can sign off for some things, Scoutmasters are NOT allowed to even be in the room during Boards of Review. So me thinkith thou once again speakith out of thine fourth point of contact.
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What about a firearm-centric scouting org?
Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.
That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.
Venturing. There is a Shooting Sports (Rifle mainly) oriented Venturing Crew in our District. They send teams to the National (Camp Perry) and other Matches. In fact, this is from last week's ISRA Newsletter (They help sponsor and give the boys at place to shoot.) Alex and Liam are Eagle Scouts that were in my son's troop, but have moved on to Venturing:
The Smallbore section of the National Matches takes place in Bristol, Indiana. The ISRA has some great Smallbore shooters, especially juniors. One of the top matches for juniors is the Whistler Boy Match which is comprised of two junior shooters. The trophies at the National Matches are magnificent; the Whistler Boy Trophy features a young man whistling, hence the name. The ISRA had two Whistler Boy teams. Historically, the top team from each group is the gold team, the second team is silver, and so on. The ISRA garnered both a 1st and 2nd place. The Gold Team (Josh Hirsch and Martina Gratz) finished 1st, and the Silver Team (Josette Peters and Jaden Thompson) finished 2nd in the championships.
In the Three Position Match (prone, kneeling and standing), there are four shooters on a team. The ISRA came 1st in the junior division and 2nd overall. The only team who beat them was from the United States Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU). Very Impressive!
The Highpower Championships were also astounding for the ISRA. There is also a Whistler Boy Match for juniors shooting Highpower. Alex Vitous and Liam McKenna made up the team and walked away with the championship. The civilian National Trophy Individual Championship felt the weight of Illinois Marksman with James Vaughn (1st), Liam McKenna (2nd) and Tom Klauer (7th).
ISRA Gold won the High Civilian Team and took the Soldier of Marathon Trophy. The firing members of the team consisted of Jim Vaughn, Tim Klauer, John Roth, Mark Aussicker, Konrad Powers, and John Holliger. The team was captained by Konrad Powers and coached by John Holliger.
The National Trophy Infantry Team Match is a six-person team match. ISRA Gold took 2nd place among the civilians.
Liam McKenna, ISRA Junior, set three national records. Liam's national records include the National Individual Trophy Match and the National Trophy Individual-Junior Team. Liam McKenna was 1st and Alex Vitous was 3rd. In the National Trophy Individual-Team Aggregate, Liam, once again, set a new national record.
There is more coming. Perhaps we should put an inscription over the ISRA door which states "Excellent Marksmanship Lives Here".
These performances show that the ISRA has one of the most active and competitive highpower rifle programs in the country. The shooters who compete in our state continually expect to fire top scores and positively represent the ISRA in national competition.
Thanks for being a member.
So BTR take the lead and have your range or club organize and support a BSA Venturing Crew that is Shooting Sports Oriented.
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Requirement-lax Eagle Scout mills are a problem with troops inside and outside the LDS church, and in fact is one of many problems I've had with the BSA.
Maybe we just had better folks at the council level, (the stake center is in another council, may have even been another district at the time, so there was no contact between local LDS and non-LDS troops) but it was never a problem in the two local troops sponsored by the United Methodist Church and an independent Baptist church, nor in any of the other troops from the council that we dealt with on a regular basis. If anything, leadership was maybe a bit too harsh on Eagle requirements, as I don't remember any of the Scouts getting it before at least close to 17, and most rushing to finish before 18. Without exception, more than two decades later all of those Eagle Scouts are people I would trust to be able to apply any of the required skills effectively today. I've been inclined to ask more than one LDS Eagle if he needed some help with his shoelaces.
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The Boy still has to prove his knowledge and skills at his Boards of Review for each rank.
Which, for the last few LDS Scouts I've talked to, consisted entirely of men they knew well from church, and who shared Scoutmaster Dad's belief that any LDS boy who didn't get Eagle before his 14th birthday would immediately take up raping nuns as a hobby instead.
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Which, for the last few LDS Scouts I've talked to, consisted entirely of men they knew well from church, and who shared Scoutmaster Dad's belief that any LDS boy who didn't get Eagle before his 14th birthday would immediately take up raping nuns as a hobby instead.
I can't think of ANY Scout who would be able to complete all the requirements to make Eagle in four years or less. Especially the Eagle Scout Leadership portion. I would expect that the District Advancement Chair* (I'm one of the two in my district), and especially the Council Advancement Committee would would cast a very suspicious eye on any unit that was putting up even one 14 year old Scout for Eagle, much less churning out 14 year old Eagle Scouts on a continuous basis. I even have a hard time with an 15 yo Eagle Candidate (He was just short of 16 when he completed his project and turned everything in). But this kid was the exception that proved the rule. Smart, Driven, Focused, and currently attending Annapolis.
What is/was your association with Scouting, other than "I know some guys that are Mormons and boobs and claim to have become Eagle Scouts at age 14."??
*- Cannot be someone from the unit or associated with the unit. Hence, there are two of us in the District. So we can't sign off on 1) the Project and 2) the BoR for boys we know. Even then if something even smells funny, the Council Advancement Committee still has to approve projects (both proposals and finished project books, along with reviewing that the boy has met all the other requirements), before giving us the completed project books to set up Boards of Review. But we have 3 LDS units in our District. They don't get to go off on their own as you imply. Either I or the other District Advancement Chair approve the projects and conduct their Eagle BoR's. They are not treated any different from any other unit.
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I can't think of ANY Scout who would be able to complete all the requirements to make Eagle in four years or less. Especially the Eagle Scout Leadership portion. I would expect that the District Advancement Chair (I'm one of the two in my district), and especially the Council Advancement Committee would would cast a very suspicious eye on any unit that was putting up even one 14 year old Scout for Eagle, much less churning out 14 year old Eagle Scouts on a continuous basis. I even have a hard time with an 15 yo Eagle Candidate (He was just short of 16 when he completed his project and turned everything in). But this kid was the exception that proved the rule. Smart, Driven, Focused, and currently attending Annapolis.
Direct quote from a former LDS Scoutmaster:
I think it speaks more to a properly run program. Done right, every boy coming out of the 11-year-old program should be 1st class rank. Once you get to that point, except for the Eagle Scout project to advance in rank you really only need to earn merit badges (a total of 21). Generally speaking if you attend a BSA scout summer camp you can earn 5 merit badges in a week there. In 4 years that's 20, once you hit Life you can start working on your Eagle project and that's doing nothing else.
For a moderately motivated young man and an okay troop they should easily get Eagle by age 15. For a very well run troop getting Eagle by 13-14 should not be uncommon.
Once you pass a requirement you don't get "tested" on it again until you Boards of Review and up until your Eagle BoR they are pretty basic and you are specifically told by BSA that it is not a test.
If you talk about gundecking requirements, complain about today's modern "everyone gets a trophy" culture b/c that is the exact same culture that leads to "gundecking".
But again in a very well run troop, getting Eagle by 14 should be pretty common.
And a reply from a more recent one:
That is not possible anymore unless the bishop twists the program slightly.
The Boy Scouts now require the Scout to get to first class at least 10 outings with their patrol and at least 6 campouts with their troop.
The LDS church ONLY allows boys 3 official campouts for 11 year old scouts. Yes...that is a discrepancy between what the LDS church allows and what the BSA requires.
However, for a properly motivated boy (or in the LDS church for Mormon Eagles where the boys are NOT required to be motivated and instead it is the LEADERS teaching all the merit badges or getting the merit badge counselors instead of how the boys are supposed to go out and get them and utilize the counselors showing a degree of responsibility and determination on the boys part), I agree, getting an Eagle is doable by 14. It should take 6 months for a Non-LDS boy to get to first class, and 1 year and 3-4 months for an LDS boy to get to first class (because of the 6 campout requirements). You then add on another 4 months for star, 6 months for Life and another 6 months for Eagle, meaning for an LDS boy, They should get their Eagle 2 months before they turn 14. Not a ton of leeway there.
I attended the court of honor for one LDS Scout (from a troop smaller than my last patrol, with his dad as Scoutmaster) where the comment was made that he was "finally getting it done just ahead of his 15th birthday." It's a pure checkbox system, and gundecked as much as they can get by with to "meet the requirements" in the bare minimum time. Compared to real Scouting of the time, it would be like a cram-and-CLEP alternative to actually taking a class in a subject you don't already know...except that the CLEP is graded by your dad's buddies, who are all strongly biased in favor of passing you.
My old Scoutmaster recently retired as a district chairman, and has been recovering from surgery, but if I see him this weekend I'll try to get his opinion of the above...though I suspect he'll just say that it would require words he doesn't like to use on Sundays.
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If your former Scoutmaster was the District Chairman and allowed this to happen, then shame on him. It's his job to run the District and the District Advancement committee. They sign off on projects and BoR. He wasn't doing his job of reviewing and providing oversight. Shame on him.
And Eagle Scout is not "Checkbox". Yes, some of the lower requirements are. But once you get to Star, it's not about learning Scout Skills, it's about developing Leadership. You can't tell me that any, but the rarest of the rare 14 yo has learned those skills.
If that what that Scoutmaster and that unit were doing, (and the Old Comanche Trails District were allowing) then they need to be reported to Texas Trails Council, Southern Region, and/or National in Dallas. Otherwise Eagle at 14 IS a Participation Trophy.
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If your former Scoutmaster was the District Chairman and allowed this to happen, then shame on him.
Not his district. I'm not even sure there are any LDS troops in his district. I don't recall which one it would have been at the time, (Weatherford stake didn't exist until 2006, so it would have been under something like west Fort Worth, with all LDS Scouting in the stake treated as being based at the stake center. Any west of us would have been effectively in Abilene. FW may have been Longhorn Council then too, but I didn't keep up with all the shuffling when it was happening. Didn't even realize all my Comanche Trails Council and Otena Lodge patches suddenly got a lot rarer until a few years after those ceased to exist.) but the above is pretty much the standard for LDS Scouting: the two scoutmasters I quoted were from different parts of the US.
IMO, BSA should revoke Eagle Scout rank if at any point in your life, barring brain injury, you can't remember how to tie a taut line hitch, (Tenderfoot requirement, generally useful knot, and easy to remember.) how to fold the United States Flag, (It takes participating in a bare minimum of three flag ceremonies to get to Eagle.) and how to treat severe bleeding. (First Aid Merit Badge, Eagle required.)
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but the above is pretty much the standard for LDS Scouting: the two scoutmasters I quoted were from different parts of the US.
Not in my District or Council. I don't know of any LDS Church here that would tolerate it.
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Not in my District or Council. I don't know of any LDS Church here that would tolerate it.
Given the number of 14-15 year old LDS Scouts getting Eagle, I see no way any regional or national leader could fail to be aware that it's happening on a regular basis. It appears we're in agreement that, barring a truly exceptional Scout and equally impressive local leadership, no one should be getting Eagle at 15, so if BSA had the guts to do anything about it, the data is there; they certainly know that plenty of LDS troops are cranking the majority of their members to Eagle before age 16.
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I never made Eagle. I managed to get 1st class and that was it. I found most of the merit badges to be exceedingly boring. Most my friends achieved it around 16 or 17. We did have a guy that achieved it at 13. Very motivated and joined the Marines shortly after he was 18. Legitimately earning Eagle at that age is possible, but I don't think most teenage boys have the motivation to do everything by 14.
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I too only got to 1st Class. My troop kind of sucked and was more interested in sports and socializing. To be honest, I was more into scouts for the camping and fieldcraft and probably wouldn't have made Eagle even if the troop was more motivated as a group. I moved to another state and never got involved in scouting after settling in.
My youngest cousin got to Eagle. It's quite an achievement and he put in a lot of work. I think he was 16-17ish.
Chris
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I too, only made it to 1st Class, skating on the fact that my patrol was working on the requirements, so I got them done by attending and participating (I did actually complete the requirements). Had it been entirely up to my own initiative, it wouldn't have even gone that far. Post 1st-class, I went on our campouts, did merit badges when we went to a BSA-run camp one year, and that's about it.
Given the number of 14-15 year old LDS Scouts getting Eagle, I see no way any regional or national leader could fail to be aware that it's happening on a regular basis. It appears we're in agreement that, barring a truly exceptional Scout and equally impressive local leadership, no one should be getting Eagle at 15, so if BSA had the guts to do anything about it, the data is there; they certainly know that plenty of LDS troops are cranking the majority of their members to Eagle before age 16.
There are certainly LDS troops like that, I don't care for it, and I have my own opinions as to some cultural reasons why it happens. There also many (in my own experience in the specific wards I've been a member of) that do it right. It will be a moot point soon enough, I suspect.