Boy Scouts are the new Hitler Youth...

[just Warren]

What about a firearm-centric scouting org?

Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.

That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.

[Perd Hapley]

What about a firearm-centric scouting org?

Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.

That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.

Boy Scout Snipers of America - I like it.

Or just add some more outdoor skills to Appleseed, if you want to make it co-ed.

[Scout26]

Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.

The Boy still has to prove his knowledge and skills at his Boards of Review for each rank.   While Dad can sign off for some things, Scoutmasters are NOT allowed to even be in the room during Boards of Review.  So me thinkith thou once again speakith out of thine fourth point of contact.

[Scout26]

What about a firearm-centric scouting org?

Sure all the other outdoors stuff will be there but the main focus is on safe gun handling, marksmanship, hunting, tactics, maybe a little history of related subjects.

That would keep the SJWs out as they could not bear to let their kids anywhere near a gun.

Venturing.  There is a Shooting Sports (Rifle mainly) oriented Venturing Crew in our District.  They send teams to the National (Camp Perry) and other Matches.  In fact, this is from last week's ISRA Newsletter (They help sponsor and give the boys at place to shoot.)  Alex and Liam are Eagle Scouts that were in my son's troop, but have moved on to Venturing:

The Smallbore section of the National Matches takes place in Bristol, Indiana.  The ISRA has some great Smallbore shooters, especially juniors.  One of the top matches for juniors is the Whistler Boy Match which is comprised of two junior shooters.  The trophies at the National Matches are magnificent; the Whistler Boy Trophy features a young man whistling, hence the name.  The ISRA had two Whistler Boy teams.  Historically, the top team from each group is the gold team, the second team is silver, and so on.  The ISRA garnered both a 1st and 2nd place.  The Gold Team (Josh Hirsch and Martina Gratz) finished 1st, and the Silver Team (Josette Peters and Jaden Thompson) finished 2nd in the championships.

In the Three Position Match (prone, kneeling and standing), there are four shooters on a team.  The ISRA came 1st in the junior division and 2nd overall.  The only team who beat them was from the United States Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU).  Very Impressive!  

The Highpower Championships were also astounding for the ISRA.  There is also a Whistler Boy Match for juniors shooting Highpower.  Alex Vitous and Liam McKenna made up the team and walked away with the championship.  The civilian National Trophy Individual Championship felt the weight of Illinois Marksman with James Vaughn (1st), Liam McKenna (2nd) and Tom Klauer (7th).  

ISRA Gold won the High Civilian Team and took the Soldier of Marathon Trophy.  The firing members of the team consisted of Jim Vaughn, Tim Klauer, John Roth, Mark Aussicker, Konrad Powers, and John Holliger.  The team was captained by Konrad Powers and coached by John Holliger.

The National Trophy Infantry Team Match is a six-person team match.  ISRA Gold took 2nd place among the civilians.

Liam McKenna, ISRA Junior, set three national records.  Liam's national records include the National Individual Trophy Match and the National Trophy Individual-Junior Team.  Liam McKenna was 1st and Alex Vitous was 3rd.  In the National Trophy Individual-Team Aggregate, Liam, once again, set a new national record.

There is more coming.  Perhaps we should put an inscription over the ISRA door which states     "Excellent Marksmanship Lives Here".

These performances show that the ISRA has one of the most active and competitive highpower rifle programs in the country.  The shooters who compete in our state continually expect to fire top scores and positively represent the ISRA in national competition.

Thanks for being a member.

So BTR take the lead and have your range or club organize and support a BSA Venturing Crew that is Shooting Sports Oriented.

[KD5NRH]

Requirement-lax Eagle Scout mills are a problem with troops inside and outside the LDS church, and in fact is one of many problems I've had with the BSA.

Maybe we just had better folks at the council level, (the stake center is in another council, may have even been another district at the time, so there was no contact between local LDS and non-LDS troops) but it was never a problem in the two local troops sponsored by the United Methodist Church and an independent Baptist church, nor in any of the other troops from the council that we dealt with on a regular basis.  If anything, leadership was maybe a bit too harsh on Eagle requirements, as I don't remember any of the Scouts getting it before at least close to 17, and most rushing to finish before 18.  Without exception, more than two decades later all of those Eagle Scouts are people I would trust to be able to apply any of the required skills effectively today.  I've been inclined to ask more than one LDS Eagle if he needed some help with his shoelaces.

[KD5NRH]

The Boy still has to prove his knowledge and skills at his Boards of Review for each rank.

Which, for the last few LDS Scouts I've talked to, consisted entirely of men they knew well from church, and who shared Scoutmaster Dad's belief that any LDS boy who didn't get Eagle before his 14th birthday would immediately take up raping nuns as a hobby instead.

[Scout26]

Which, for the last few LDS Scouts I've talked to, consisted entirely of men they knew well from church, and who shared Scoutmaster Dad's belief that any LDS boy who didn't get Eagle before his 14th birthday would immediately take up raping nuns as a hobby instead.

I can't think of ANY Scout who would be able to complete all the requirements to make Eagle in four years or less.  Especially the Eagle Scout Leadership portion.  I would expect that the District Advancement Chair* (I'm one of the two in my district), and especially the Council Advancement Committee would would cast a very suspicious eye on any unit that was putting up even one 14 year old Scout for Eagle, much less churning out 14 year old Eagle Scouts on a continuous basis.   I even have a hard time with an 15 yo Eagle Candidate (He was just short of 16 when he completed his project and turned everything in).  But this kid was the exception that proved the rule.  Smart, Driven, Focused, and currently attending Annapolis.

What is/was your association with Scouting, other than "I know some guys that are Mormons and boobs and claim to have become Eagle Scouts at age 14."??


*- Cannot be someone from the unit or associated with the unit.  Hence, there are two of us in the District. So we can't sign off on 1) the Project and 2) the BoR for boys we know.   Even then if something even smells funny, the Council Advancement Committee still has to approve projects (both proposals and finished project books, along with reviewing that the boy has met all the other requirements), before giving us the completed project books to set up Boards of Review.    But we have 3 LDS units in our District.  They don't get to go off on their own as you imply.  Either I or the other District Advancement Chair approve the projects and conduct their Eagle BoR's.  They are not treated any different from any other unit.   

[KD5NRH]

I can't think of ANY Scout who would be able to complete all the requirements to make Eagle in four years or less.  Especially the Eagle Scout Leadership portion.  I would expect that the District Advancement Chair (I'm one of the two in my district), and especially the Council Advancement Committee would would cast a very suspicious eye on any unit that was putting up even one 14 year old Scout for Eagle, much less churning out 14 year old Eagle Scouts on a continuous basis.   I even have a hard time with an 15 yo Eagle Candidate (He was just short of 16 when he completed his project and turned everything in).  But this kid was the exception that proved the rule.  Smart, Driven, Focused, and currently attending Annapolis.

Direct quote from a former LDS Scoutmaster:

I think it speaks more to a properly run program.  Done right, every boy coming out of the 11-year-old program should be 1st class rank.  Once you get to that point, except for the Eagle Scout project to advance in rank you really only need to earn merit badges (a total of 21).  Generally speaking if you attend a BSA scout summer camp you can earn 5 merit badges in a week there.  In 4 years that's 20, once you hit Life you can start working on your Eagle project and that's doing nothing else.
For a moderately motivated young man and an okay troop they should easily get Eagle by age 15. For a very well run troop getting Eagle by 13-14 should not be uncommon.
Once you pass a requirement you don't get "tested" on it again until you Boards of Review and up until your Eagle BoR they are pretty basic and you are specifically told by BSA that it is not a test.
If you talk about gundecking requirements, complain about today's modern "everyone gets a trophy" culture b/c that is the exact same culture that leads to "gundecking".
But again in a very well run troop, getting Eagle by 14 should be pretty common.

And a reply from a more recent one:

That is not possible anymore unless the bishop twists the program slightly.
The Boy Scouts now require the Scout to get to first class at least 10 outings with their patrol and at least 6 campouts with their troop.
The LDS church ONLY allows boys 3 official campouts for 11 year old scouts.  Yes...that is a discrepancy between what the LDS church allows and what the BSA requires.
However, for a properly motivated boy (or in the LDS church for Mormon Eagles where the boys are NOT required to be motivated and instead it is the LEADERS teaching all the merit badges or getting the merit badge counselors instead of how the boys are supposed to go out and get them and utilize the counselors showing a degree of responsibility and determination on the boys part), I agree, getting an Eagle is doable by 14.  It should take 6 months for a Non-LDS boy to get to first class, and 1 year and 3-4 months for an LDS boy to get to first class (because of the 6 campout requirements).  You then add on another 4 months for star, 6 months for Life and another 6 months for Eagle, meaning for an LDS boy, They should get their Eagle 2 months before they turn 14.  Not a ton of leeway there.

I attended the court of honor for one LDS Scout (from a troop smaller than my last patrol, with his dad as Scoutmaster) where the comment was made that he was "finally getting it done just ahead of his 15th birthday."  It's a pure checkbox system, and gundecked as much as they can get by with to "meet the requirements" in the bare minimum time.  Compared to real Scouting of the time, it would be like a cram-and-CLEP alternative to actually taking a class in a subject you don't already know...except that the CLEP is graded by your dad's buddies, who are all strongly biased in favor of passing you.

My old Scoutmaster recently retired as a district chairman, and has been recovering from surgery, but if I see him this weekend I'll try to get his opinion of the above...though I suspect he'll just say that it would require words he doesn't like to use on Sundays.

[Scout26]

If your former Scoutmaster was the District Chairman and allowed this to happen, then shame on him.  It's his job to run the District and the District Advancement committee.  They sign off on projects and BoR.  He wasn't doing his job of reviewing and providing oversight.  Shame on him.

And Eagle Scout is not "Checkbox".  Yes, some of the lower requirements are.  But once you get to Star, it's not about learning Scout Skills, it's about developing Leadership.  You can't tell me that any, but the rarest of the rare 14 yo has learned those skills.

If that what that Scoutmaster and that unit were doing, (and the Old Comanche Trails District were allowing) then they need to be reported to Texas Trails Council, Southern Region, and/or National in Dallas.  Otherwise Eagle at 14 IS a Participation Trophy. 

[KD5NRH]

If your former Scoutmaster was the District Chairman and allowed this to happen, then shame on him.

Not his district.  I'm not even sure there are any LDS troops in his district.  I don't recall which one it would have been at the time, (Weatherford stake didn't exist until 2006, so it would have been under something like west Fort Worth, with all LDS Scouting in the stake treated as being based at the stake center.  Any west of us would have been effectively in Abilene.  FW may have been Longhorn Council then too, but I didn't keep up with all the shuffling when it was happening.  Didn't even realize all my Comanche Trails Council and Otena Lodge patches suddenly got a lot rarer until a few years after those ceased to exist.) but the above is pretty much the standard for LDS Scouting: the two scoutmasters I quoted were from different parts of the US.

IMO, BSA should revoke Eagle Scout rank if at any point in your life, barring brain injury, you can't remember how to tie a taut line hitch, (Tenderfoot requirement, generally useful knot, and easy to remember.) how to fold the United States Flag, (It takes participating in a bare minimum of three flag ceremonies to get to Eagle.) and how to treat severe bleeding.  (First Aid Merit Badge, Eagle required.)

[Scout26]

but the above is pretty much the standard for LDS Scouting: the two scoutmasters I quoted were from different parts of the US.

Not in my District or Council. I don't know of any LDS Church here that would tolerate it.

[KD5NRH]

Not in my District or Council. I don't know of any LDS Church here that would tolerate it.

Given the number of 14-15 year old LDS Scouts getting Eagle, I see no way any regional or national leader could fail to be aware that it's happening on a regular basis.  It appears we're in agreement that, barring a truly exceptional Scout and equally impressive local leadership, no one should be getting Eagle at 15, so if BSA had the guts to do anything about it, the data is there; they certainly know that plenty of LDS troops are cranking the majority of their members to Eagle before age 16.

[Sideways_8]

I never made Eagle. I managed to get 1st class and that was it. I found most of the merit badges to be exceedingly boring. Most my friends achieved it around 16 or 17. We did have a guy that achieved it at 13. Very motivated and joined the Marines shortly after he was 18. Legitimately earning Eagle at that age is possible, but I don't think most teenage boys have the motivation to do everything by 14.

[mtnbkr]

I too only got to 1st Class.  My troop kind of sucked and was more interested in sports and socializing.  To be honest, I was more into scouts for the camping and fieldcraft and probably wouldn't have made Eagle even if the troop was more motivated as a group.  I moved to another state and never got involved in scouting after settling in.

My youngest cousin got to Eagle.  It's quite an achievement and he put in a lot of work.  I think he was 16-17ish.

Chris

[Marnoot]

I too, only made it to 1st Class, skating on the fact that my patrol was working on the requirements, so I got them done by attending and participating (I did actually complete the requirements). Had it been entirely up to my own initiative, it wouldn't have even gone that far. Post 1st-class, I went on our campouts, did merit badges when we went to a BSA-run camp one year, and that's about it.

Given the number of 14-15 year old LDS Scouts getting Eagle, I see no way any regional or national leader could fail to be aware that it's happening on a regular basis.  It appears we're in agreement that, barring a truly exceptional Scout and equally impressive local leadership, no one should be getting Eagle at 15, so if BSA had the guts to do anything about it, the data is there; they certainly know that plenty of LDS troops are cranking the majority of their members to Eagle before age 16.

There are certainly LDS troops like that, I don't care for it, and I have my own opinions as to some cultural reasons why it happens. There also many (in my own experience in the specific wards I've been a member of) that do it right. It will be a moot point soon enough, I suspect.