Author Topic: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.  (Read 16364 times)

Manedwolf

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Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« on: April 03, 2008, 11:43:27 AM »
Did they really think this guy would give up power? Place went to hell under his rule. This ought to get interesting.



Quote
HARARE, Zimbabwe    Raids on opposition party offices and the rounding up of foreign journalists are threatening to push Zimbabwe further toward confrontation between current President Robert Mugabe and the apparent winner of national elections.

Police raided the Meikles hotel, which is used by the opposition, Movement for Democratic Change, and ransacked some of the rooms. Riot police also surrounded another hotel housing foreign journalists, York Lodge, and took away several of them, according to a man who answered the phone there.

"Mugabe has started a crackdown," Movement for Democratic Change secretary-general Tendai Biti told The Associated Press. "It is quite clear he has unleashed a war."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346068,00.html

Do they just not understand what the internet is? Why do these tinpot types think they can still get away with this and not be noticed? Woo, arrested some reporters to keep the story from getting out. Welcome to 1970.


HankB

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 11:50:40 AM »
Quote
Police raided the Meikles hotel,
Wow . . . I stayed there briefly when I hunted Zimbabwe in the early '90s . . . before Mugabe began seizing white-owned farms.

"Woman on the spot" commentary on what the mess in Zimbabwe means to ordinary people can be found at cathybuckle.com/thisweek.shtml
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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El Tejon

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 11:50:59 AM »
Mugabestan! rolleyes

I heard today that the inbred tongue-cluckers at State issued a "harsh statement" to Mugabe.  What did the cookie pushers at State think was going to happen?  It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization.  You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.

I say we drop captured AKs from Iraq, like in Lord of War, all over Africa so the African people can start all over.  Remove the governments, run a bulldozer over the buildings and start with a fresh sheet of paper.  
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Finch

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 12:24:30 PM »
WE CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN!!! WHEN DO WE INVADE?
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El Tejon

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 12:26:09 PM »
We got to fix it then. shocked

All the Superfriends from the Hall of Justice couldn't fix Mugabestan.
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Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 12:50:19 PM »
Quote
All the Superfriends from the Hall of Justice couldn't fix Mugabestan.

That's why we need Mercer. http://www.mercerforpresident2008.com/c14f7f9dd9bbed555232a5cb8defd6f7.html

Brad Johnson

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 01:00:19 PM »
Why is it the cheesier the dictator, the more crap they pin on?

Brad
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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 01:01:56 PM »
Why is it the cheesier the dictator, the more crap they pin on?

Brad
"The cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter." -Bogart, Maltese Falcon

charby

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 01:11:16 PM »
Do they just not understand what the internet is? Why do these tinpot types think they can still get away with this and not be noticed? Woo, arrested some reporters to keep the story from getting out. Welcome to 1970.



Same thing for China also. Some of these opressive government folks need to learn that the rest of the world can see everything you are doing via the Internet.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 03:09:54 PM »
neither mugabe or the chinese really care what the rest of the world thinks.  they believe, rightly, that we won't remember it more than a week after the bodies are buried. or no longer than it becomes convienent
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 04:54:37 PM »
Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization.  You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.

You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?

When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words.  If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Bruce H

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 05:14:14 PM »
Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization.  You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.

You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?

When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words.  If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.


Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.
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De Selby

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2008, 05:17:13 PM »
Quote
Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.

We can all agree that Mugabe is a worthless thug.

But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.

That is savage and backwards, plain and simple.  There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 05:29:44 PM »
In the land of stumps the one-legged man is king.
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roo_ster

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2008, 06:17:42 PM »
Ian Smith & Co. made the argument that Africans can't rule themselves in a civilized manner.

Mugabe & Co. worked diligently to prove him right.

Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization.  You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.

You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?

When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words.  If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.

Ah, yes.  The, "I'd rather be killed and eaten by a black man than not have the franchise while ruled by white men," argument.  Very effective in some circles.  There are some folks who concur with whole heart (braised over open coals). 

"I Got Yer Savagery Right Here!"


Top aide testifies Taylor ordered soldiers to eat victims

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) -- Grim tales of cannibalism highlighting the brutality of West Africa's civil wars emerged in testimony Thursday at the war crimes trial of former Liberian President Charles Taylor.

Joseph "Zigzag" Marzah, who described himself as Taylor's chief of operations and head of the death squad before Taylor became president, said African peacekeepers and even United Nations personnel were killed and eaten on the battlefield by Taylor's militiamen.

Prosecutors described Marzah as a key witness with inside knowledge of the former Liberian president's operations in Liberia and neighboring Sierra Leone, where he is accused of responsibility for the widespread murder, rape and amputations committed by soldiers loyal to him.

Taylor, 59, has pleaded not guilty to 11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity. He is accused of orchestrating violence in Sierra Leone's civil war, which ended in 2002, and trading in illegally mined diamonds to finance the conflict.

The trial by the Special Court for Sierra Leone, part of the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands, began last June but adjourned after one day when Taylor fired his lawyer. It reconvened in January, but many prosecution witnesses have testified behind closed doors for fear of retribution.

Marzah appeared in open court after lengthy negotiations involving protection for him and his family.

Prodded under cross-examination by defense lawyer Courtenay Griffith, Marzah gave a sometimes-graphic description of cannibalism that altered between the ritual taking of vengeance and the practical need for food.

He repeatedly said nothing was done without Taylor's instructions, and that anyone who violated Taylor's orders would be executed.

"Did Charles Taylor order you to eat people?" Griffith asked.

"Yes, to set an example for the people to be afraid," Marzah replied.

He appeared unfazed by Griffith's blunt queries, and responded in matter-of-fact tones to such questions as "How do you prepare a human being for the pot?"

Marzah then described the splitting, cleaning, decapitating and cooking of the corpse with salt and pepper. "We throw your head away," he said.

He said the victims were usually from the ethnic Krahn, the tribe of former Liberian President Samuel Doe whom Taylor set out to topple in 1989. But they also included peacekeepers from the Nigerian-led ECOMOG, the African peacekeeping force sent to the area in 1990, and some U.N. people, he said.

"How many ECOMOG soldiers did you eat?" the attorney asked.

"We ate a few but not many. But many were executed, about 68," the witness said, and several U.N. personnel also were captured. The time and location of the incident were unclear.

"Which ones taste best?" Griffith asked.

"There was no alternative but to do it your own way," Marzah replied.

Enemies, he was told, "are no longer human beings."

Taylor, then head of the National Patriotic Liberian Front, said in interviews at the time that he considered ECOMOG to be just another warring faction in the multisided civil wars in Sierra Leone and Liberia.

Later, ECOMOG helped stabilize the region, allowing elections in Liberia in 1997 that Taylor won.

More here:
http://www.sc-sl.org/Transcripts/Taylor/14March2008.pdf
http://charlestaylortrial.org/

Quote
I started sitting with Mr Taylor during the death of
Theodore when we took his liver and we used it at a ceremony and
he shared with us. We all ate it. And the same things happened
in the case of Sam Dokie. The death of Sam Dokie, his liver was
taken away by us and then we carried it and it was cooked by this
lady. I will call the woman's name. Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni.
Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni cooked it and Charles Taylor shared it
with us.
...
And even at the time he escaped from Ghana when we arrested
Cooperville along with Moses Blah, we arrested those two people,
and he was there in Ben's veranda. Ben and I were sitting down
and he said we should "control those people's hearts until I get
there". Then we took out those two guys' livers and then, after
we had kept it in Ben's freezer for a long time, when Charles
Taylor arrived we cooked it and all of us shared it together.

Long Pork: The other other white meat.

Quote from: SS
That is savage and backwards, plain and simple.  There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."

I must agree, cannibalism is just plain...Oh, you mean Mugabe's and Taylor's predecessors!  Silly me.

Civilization is a continuum.  On one end is abject savagery and on the other the liberal nation state with universal suffrage.  Mugabe, Taylor, and similar leaders tug toward the savage end*.  Smith** was no Ben Franklin, but he is head & shoulders above the Mugabes of the world.  Yeah, not an exacting standard.



* They can't even claim mob rule status, as they do not honor popular election results.

** Interesting note: Smith was first elected as a policritter as a member of the Liberal Party.  You really can't make this *expletive deleted*it up.

Regards,

roo_ster

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 06:44:00 PM »
Quote
Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.

We can all agree that Mugabe is a worthless thug.

But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.

That is savage and backwards, plain and simple.  There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."

Except it wasn't slavery in thought or deed.

Restricted franchise?  Yep, and that's dead wrong but is usually fixed with time.

Much like the mid-20th century US.

Or was that "slavery" too?

Reserved seats in Parliment to maintain minority representation.  Yep, but again, that would have inevitably bowed to reality and ended over time as well.

I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 07:06:20 PM »

I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.

It's all about the white guilt.

De Selby

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2008, 08:31:31 PM »
carebear,

You are leaving out the factors that made it slavery, such as:

-Refraining from any act or speech critical of the white regime on pain of torture and/or death

-Absolutely no individual choice in regards to employment.  Labor was mostly de facto bonded to its white land ownership.

-Prohibitions on the ownership of any substantial personal property.  By law, most large landholdings and all commercial landholdings were reserved for whites.

-Fairly strict codes enforcing the interaction of the races.

All of those were hallmarks of the racial slavery system, and they existed in both South Africa and Rhodesia.  And they came will all the same justifications put forth by Ian Smith: "they're not fit for freedom" (where did we hear that one before?) "Agree in principle with freedom for blacks but it's just not the right time" (again, a familiar refrain) and "Whites maintain civilization and order" (Not too unfamiliar either.)

It is not hyperbole to call that system slavery-indeed, it shared all the legal and real-life characteristics of slavery, except that the masters in those countries didn't build big quarters for the slaves....the slaves were mostly left to build their own shacks at the end of the day's compulsory labor, performed under a strict legal code of "blacks must do x and y whenever they're near whites".
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 08:36:11 PM »

I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.

It's all about the white guilt.

No, I'd say it's more about some taking pride in institutionalized racism-and responding to that.  A racial elite that rules the populace of blacks by force is not "freedom", irrespective of one's feelings of guilt or innocence with respect that crime.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 09:01:15 PM »
List the dates those were codifed into law and when they were removed.  Rhodesia exhibited major legal changes in its last decades.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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LAK

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2008, 11:18:56 PM »
shootinstudent
Quote
But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.
That is not true. Anyone who served in Rhodesia's armed forces - black or white - will tell you that.

What is true is that Ian Smith continued to live there after he was no longer in government with anyone free to call on him like any other household. If anyone had really had a grievence with him he was an easy unprotected target.

Must have been a very sad thing to watch the decline of that country.

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HankB

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 04:21:10 AM »
carebear,

You are leaving out the factors that made it slavery, such as:

-Refraining from any act or speech critical of the white regime on pain of torture and/or death
Today, Mugabe thugs routinely torture, imprison, and kill political opponents.

-Absolutely no individual choice in regards to employment. 
The "choice" today means a third of the population depends on food aid, and unemployment is at least 80%. Today, a third of the population has fled the country, whereas blacks from other parts of Africa were moving TO the evil slave state of Rhodesia . . . voting with their feet.

--Prohibitions on the ownership of any substantial personal property.  By law, most large landholdings and all commercial landholdings were reserved for whites.
Today, the only people who own any real property are Mugabe flunkies . . . the law is exactly what Mugabe & company say it is.

-Fairly strict codes enforcing the interaction of the races.
Today's "Kill, rob, and exile the white devils" is a fairly strict racial code.

All of those were hallmarks of the racial slavery system, and they existed in both South Africa and Rhodesia.  And they came will all the same justifications put forth by Ian Smith: "they're not fit for freedom" (where did we hear that one before?) "Agree in principle with freedom for blacks but it's just not the right time" (again, a familiar refrain) and "Whites maintain civilization and order" (Not too unfamiliar either.)
Thank you for providing those quotes! As food for thought - do actual events - not your wishes but what's actually happening today - prove him wrong - or right?

  . . . It is not hyperbole to call that system slavery . . .
It may not be hyperbole, but it's SO far removed from reality that it's not even wrong.

Pre-Mugabe, Rhodesia was considered to be the breadbasket of south central Africa. People had full bellies and health care for blacks, while certainly not up to US/European standards, was better than anywhere else in sub-Saharan Africa other than RSA, and there were jobs to be had. And again, people - BLACK people - were voting with their feet and moving TO both Rhodesia and South Africa . . . which says a great deal more about what conditions were actually like there than the uninformed pontifications of a white man in North America or Europe afflicted with slavery derangement syndrome.

Using shootinstudent's own examples, today's Zimbabwe is more of a "slave state" than Ian Smith's Rhodesia was.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

roo_ster

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2008, 06:39:34 AM »
One thing I noticed in googling my way through Rhodesian history a while back was various forms of the following factoid:
"Whites made up 5% of the population, but 95% of the voters."

This implies that 5% of the voters were not white.  How could this be, if there was a prohibition on black suffrage?

Thing is, there was no prohibition on black suffrage.  Only a very few blacks met the requirements* to register to vote.

Also, when Rhodesia broke away form the UK, it further liberalized the franchise, making more black Africans eligible to vote.

All of this goes to the question, "Was Rhodesia a slave state?"  I think not, unless one wants to torture the word, "slave," so much so that everyone qualifies as a "slave."  When meaning is broadened to such an extent, the meaning dissipates and ends up signifying nothing.


* Changed over time, but usually included the ability to write one's home address and some sort of property or income.  Literacy and a stake in the well-being of the country seem very reasonable requirements for the franchise.  Matter of fact, our Founding Fathers has similar requirements.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Manedwolf

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 05:46:13 AM »
News on the radio this morning. Mugabe's squads are going around seizing white-owned farms.

Again.

With no intention of keeping them productive, or ability to even if they did. Just armed thugs occupying the buildings after making the owners leave.

K Frame

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Re: Well, there goes another mess in Africa. Zimbabwe.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 05:54:17 AM »
I thought that they had seized all of the white-owned farms.

Ya know, maybe Kipling's "white man's burden" wasn't so terribly far off the mark...
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