As murder rate climbs, Chicago mayor makes ‘values’ appeal

[Jamie B]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/murder-rate-climbs-chicago-mayor-makes-values-appeal-161727694.html

Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel has a warning for gangs: Stay away from our kids.

Emanuel--formerly President Barack Obama's White House chief of staff and a Chicago-area congressman--is asking that even gang members show some regard for innocent children, and take their brawls "away to the alley."

Since coming into office 13 months ago, Emanuel has been shouldered with a soaring murder rate. As crime overall has dropped in the city and across the nation, Chicago already has had 275 murders this year, according to CBS News.

Looks like that gun control is not working well at all.

[Nick1911]

I wish we, "gun people" could get past the point where we attribute murder (and crime in general) to the one talking point we care about.  There are many, many factors that influence the murder rate.  The insinuation that the "one true big problem" is gun control makes us (as a group) look disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

To put in another way: Austrialia has a much lower murder rate then we do.  Perhaps we should implement their gun control policies? [1][2]

[Sergeant Bob]

I wish we, "gun people" could get past the point where we attribute murder (and crime in general) to the one talking point we care about.  There are many, many factors that influence the murder rate.  The insinuation that the "one true big problem" is gun control makes us (as a group) look disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

To put in another way: Austrialia has a much lower murder rate then we do.  Perhaps we should implement their gun control policies? [1][2]

I don't think he's saying "gun control" is the cause of the high crime rates, rather that implementing gun control does little to decrease crime.

[lee n. field]

I wish we, "gun people" could get past the point where we attribute murder (and crime in general) to the one talking point we care about.  There are many, many factors that influence the murder rate.  The insinuation that the "one true big problem" is gun control makes us (as a group) look disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

To put in another way: Austrialia has a much lower murder rate then we do.  Perhaps we should implement their gun control policies? [1][2]

It's more the anti-gunners that do that.  What I see is our side  pointing out that it's more complicated than that.

[TommyGunn]

I wish we, "gun people" could get past the point where we attribute murder (and crime in general) to the one talking point we care about.  There are many, many factors that influence the murder rate.  The insinuation that the "one true big problem" is gun control makes us (as a group) look disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

To put in another way: Austrialia has a much lower murder rate then we do.  Perhaps we should implement their gun control policies? [1][2]

Where is Austrialia?   Do they even have guns there?  How about phase pulse guns in the 40 megawatt range??

[Tallpine]

The trouble with Chicago is that it's full of Chicagoans 

/Longshanks 

[Monkeyleg]

His appeal to the gangs reminds me of a comment by a member of the British Parliament in the 1990's. At issue was the arming--or not--of police, and an opponent said (words to the effect) that, if the criminals saw that the police were unarmed, perhaps they would be gentlemen enough to not be armed themselves. 

[Jamie B]

I don't think he's saying "gun control" is the cause of the high crime rates, rather that implementing gun control does little to decrease crime.

Thank you - you are exactly correct.

Living in Chicago these days is like being a lame sheep with a target on your back.

I'll pass on being unarmed criminal fodder.

[De Selby]

His appeal to the gangs reminds me of a comment by a member of the British Parliament in the 1990's. At issue was the arming--or not--of police, and an opponent said (words to the effect) that, if the criminals saw that the police were unarmed, perhaps they would be gentlemen enough to not be armed themselves. 

I read an article by Dave Kopel covering that subject a while back - his view was that the single biggest factor in criminals arming themselves is an armed police force. 

[lupinus]

I read an article by Dave Kopel covering that subject a while back - his view was that the single biggest factor in criminals arming themselves is an armed police force. 

Because no way in hell it could be to commit criminal acts

[De Selby]

Because no way in hell it could be to commit criminal acts

You don't need a gun to commit most criminal acts. 

[Ron]

The reason murder is up is probably due in part to CPD going back to business as usual.

They wouldn't keep Jody Weis in charge because half the force and the union hated him. He was forced out in March of last year. This in spite of his impressive results in lowering violent crime in Chicago during his short tenure (lowest murder rate since 1964 or thereabouts). He was replaced by the former chief, who is an inside guy, union likes him. Jody was an outsider and a former fed on top of it all (FBI).

[TommyGunn]

You don't need a gun to commit most criminal acts. 

Having a gun keeps the victims from debating the subject with you.

[Jamie B]

Having a gun keeps the victims from debating the subject with you.

Yea, and all of the other criminals have one.

I read an article by Dave Kopel covering that subject a while back - his view was that the single biggest factor in criminals arming themselves is an armed police force. 

Not buying this one.
Even if it was true, it has no bearing on infringing on the rights of legal carry by citizens.

[Perd Hapley]

Yea, and all of the other criminals have one.


Not buying this one.
Even if it was true, it has no bearing on infringing on the rights of legal carry by citizens.

Last I knew, David Kopel favors an armed citizenry. And since a disarmed police force makes about as much sense as a disarmed populace, he must have been saying that a criminal cohort desiring to arm itself is some kind of sign of progress. I.e., the people are armed; their police are armed, ergo the crooks try to arm themselves.

[MicroBalrog]

His appeal to the gangs reminds me of a comment by a member of the British Parliament in the 1990's. At issue was the arming--or not--of police, and an opponent said (words to the effect) that, if the criminals saw that the police were unarmed, perhaps they would be gentlemen enough to not be armed themselves. 

Have cop killings been a major issue in the UK, ever?

Why do UK cops need to be armed?

[Perd Hapley]

Why not?

[Jim147]

His appeal to their values has a few problems.

It can be turned to say, "It's alright if you kill each other, just don't let kids get caught in the crossfire." (Not that I have a problem with that.)

And, if they had real values, would we even be having this discussion?

jim

[De Selby]

Last I knew, David Kopel favors an armed citizenry. And since a disarmed police force makes about as much sense as a disarmed populace, he must have been saying that a criminal cohort desiring to arm itself is some kind of sign of progress. I.e., the people are armed; their police are armed, ergo the crooks try to arm themselves.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/lrstlupl.htm

He explains the reasoning there - disarming police appears, for whatever reason, to reduce incidences of armed crime.

[MicroBalrog]

Why not?

Well, remember that the British introduced unarmed police at a time where gun ownership, including pistol ownership for self-defense, was common in England.

It was not done for outright hoplophobia.

[De Selby]

Well, remember that the British introduced unarmed police at a time where gun ownership, including pistol ownership for self-defense, was common in England.

It was not done for outright hoplophobia.

I think it's an idea worth investigating - seems to have been more about a different conception of what police officers are supposed to do.

[MicroBalrog]

I think it's an idea worth investigating - seems to have been more about a different conception of what police officers are supposed to do.

Ka-ching.

Give this man a cee-gar.

[HankB]

. . .  To put in another way: Austrialia has a much lower murder rate then we do.  Perhaps we should implement their gun control policies?

Australia in general has a very different demographic than Chicago does.

Some time ago, Chicago did a study of murders over a 20 year period. At the time, about 3/4 of murders were committed by persons with prior criminal records. The bit of good news was that around 2/3 of the victims also had criminal records, putting most of the killings into the "good riddance" category.

The big problem is the study also included demographic data which showed that the vast majority of killings were committed by certain ethnicities . . . and that statistic was politically unpalatable, so the results of the study were studiously ignored.

[Perd Hapley]

I think it's an idea worth investigating - seems to have been more about a different conception of what police officers are supposed to do.

In other words, people don't carry guns unless they want to use them.

[RevDisk]

I think it's an idea worth investigating - seems to have been more about a different conception of what police officers are supposed to do.

I concur with De Selby. The British police do have armed units. They mostly keep their firearms at the armory back at their headquarters. Even the British know there is a time and place for armed police. Difference is the default always armed police. It is two very different philosophies. Both have good and bad points.

Let's be honest, even criminals are more likely to use lethal force against law enforcement if they think there is a good chance they're going to be killed. Yes, a handful are thoroughly insane or sufficiently sociopathic to just kill because they can or want to do so. Those tend to be the exception, rather than the norm.

I'm not advocating disarming the police. I am saying, it is not a foolish notion.